Game manager instead of Franchise QB till we find our Mahomes

[patfanken]

Here's the conundrum, ALL thos QB's you mentioned as being franchise QB's were picked in the top 10 of the draft, and most were top 5. A position that the Pats have had just 2 times during his tenure (Seymour #6, Mayo #10) So drafting a "franchise QB" is problematic at best. Because we all EXPECT our team to be in top half of the league at WORST.

BTW- Tom Brady was saddled with the "game manager" title for at LEAST the first 6 years of his career here. It wasn't until his breakout 2007 year that he was view (by some) to being a "franchise QB" like Rodgers and Manning. And it took probably another 4 years (after 2011) that he was universally considered a franchise QB

But as we have always seen, even so called "franchise QB's" are subject to how good the OL/WR/RB's are if they are to be consistently successful. Great QB's CAN elevate their offenses given the position they play. THEY touch the ball on virtuously every play. But it STILL doesn't negate the fact that even THEIR production is affected by the 10 other guys that play around them.

 

[crawhammer]

Yeah they are. Most teams don't bail on their 1st round drafted QB's after two seasons. Three, sure if they're truly bad like that kid on the Jets.

Thing is, we don't know with Mac since he regressed in large part because of the Matty P/Judge experiment.

We actually don't know what exactly contributed to Mac's regression. We're speculating and there are some obvious contributing factors, such as the commonly referenced Patricia, Judge and their offense. But we've got a decent sample size on Mac so we can present an informed assessment of his play. He's a 1st round quarterback, which comes with high expectations, and given how he's looked in his last 20 games, he's falling short of expectations.

He's not a total disaster like Zach Wilson and I don't think many people are saying we should bail on Mac completely. I'm not opposed to bringing in a viable veteran starting quarterback who provides a clear improvement at the position (and trading Mac) but improving the talent around Mac under O'Brien now is also acceptable.

The main problem with building an offense around Mac is that even at his best I don't think he'll be capable of outdueling the elite quarterbacks of the AFC (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen and Herbert at minimum). The only true example of an elite team in the NFL with a non-elite quarterback is San Francisco (and their quarterbacks have 33 TDs and 9 INTs on the season so the QB production is actually there). I don't think the Patriots roster will be resembling SF's any time soon so we likely won't be achieving their model.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Draft mid round QB next year and continue on with Mac and zappe for next 3 years . Rinse and repeat till we have ability to draft QB with top 5 or lightning strikes and zappe turns into Brady .

I agree with sticking with Mac and Zappe next year, hopefully that will work out. Waiting until the team has a top 5 pick means a very bad season and a very risky bet on an unproven player. Better to always be on the lookout for the next QB. Draft a lower round QB each year to develop and create competition while watching for opportunities via FA. Best case Mac becomes a true QB1 and his replacement is on the roster, ala Jimmy G, when it is time to move on.

 

[mgteich]

To be real, Jones isn't close to being as good as the QB's from the top 6 AFC seeded teams in the current playoffs.
================
I am NOT saying that Jones won't develop and be good enough to win and go deep into the playoffs. I just don't see him as a top AFC QB now, or even in the future.
================
We need to continue to be a top defense and running team, and again have a top special teams.

 

[Toofy]

I agree with sticking with Mac and Zappe next year, hopefully that will work out. Waiting until the team has a top 5 pick means a very bad season and a very risky bet on an unproven player. Better to always be on the lookout for the next QB. Draft a lower round QB each year to develop and create competition while watching for opportunities via FA. Best case Mac becomes a true QB1 and his replacement is on the roster, ala Jimmy G, when it is time to move on.

I think that's what I saying. Invest in high QB only if we really tank bad, have no other options and Like one of the QBs out the draft.else use 4th round pick on qbevery alternate year or 3rd.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

The only true example of an elite team in the NFL with a non-elite quarterback is San Francisco (and their quarterbacks have 33 TDs and 9 INTs on the season so the QB production is actually there). I don't think the Patriots roster will be resembling SF's any time soon so we likely won't be achieving their model

Even SF they didn’t win anything yet because they don’t have that QB.

In 2019, they lost because they needed the QB to close the game and he couldn’t. This weekend Purdy look very pedestrian what will happen when he might look like that again against the Eagle and Burrow or Mahomes.

You can win games with Mac but you will be hard press to out dueling any of the top 6 QB. We would be lucky to get pass the WC weekend with him only because I think we would make the playoffs has 6-7 seed.

Many compare him with Cousin. Cousin has Jefferson and look at the result. Loosing at home to the Giants who gets blown out the week after.

 

[Toofy]

Even SF they didn’t win anything yet because they don’t have that QB.

In 2019, they lost because they needed the QB to close the game and he couldn’t. This weekend Purdy look very pedestrian what will happen when he might look like that again against the Eagle and Burrow or Mahomes.

You can win games with Mac but you will be hard press to out dueling any of the top 6 QB. We would be lucky to get pass the WC weekend with him only because I think we would make the playoffs has 6-7 seed.

Many compare him with Cousin. Cousin has Jefferson and look at the result. Loosing at home to the Giants who gets blown out the week after.

Winning Superbowl is tough. Josh Allen doesn't have a ring yet and mahomes has just one.

So not taking that lofty goal as marker for success and limiting it by gauging postseason consistency , 49ers have been able to do more with lesser QBs and could possibly be one team based template to win a ring without superstar QB. Makes me appreciate how lucky and entitled we have been for over 2 decades. No wonder most of the country hates us .

 

[crawhammer]

Many compare him with Cousin. Cousin has Jefferson and look at the result. Loosing at home to the Giants who gets blown out the week after.

I'm all set with Cousins. The 3-yard check down on 4th-8 of the last possession was enough for me. He's just a loser. Dak also.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm all set with Cousins. The 3-yard check down on 4th-8 of the last possession was enough for me. He's just a loser. Dak also.

IMO these are the most problematic QBs from a fan's perspective and sometimes from a GM's perspective. I'd say roughly the 9-12 rankings for QBs. Their numbers are often fine, they make pro bowls, but they just don't have that other gear to carry a team on their backs. You wind up looking bad if you don't re-sign them (I mean, look at the alternative with Washington) but then you've sunk as much cost into them as a top tier guy.

 

[PatsFan2]

We actually don't know what exactly contributed to Mac's regression. We're speculating and there are some obvious contributing factors, such as the commonly referenced Patricia, Judge and their offense. But we've got a decent sample size on Mac so we can present an informed assessment of his play. He's a 1st round quarterback, which comes with high expectations, and given how he's looked in his last 20 games, he's falling short of expectations.

He's not a total disaster like Zach Wilson and I don't think many people are saying we should bail on Mac completely. I'm not opposed to bringing in a viable veteran starting quarterback who provides a clear improvement at the position (and trading Mac) but improving the talent around Mac under O'Brien now is also acceptable.

The main problem with building an offense around Mac is that even at his best I don't think he'll be capable of outdueling the elite quarterbacks of the AFC (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen and Herbert at minimum). The only true example of an elite team in the NFL with a non-elite quarterback is San Francisco (and their quarterbacks have 33 TDs and 9 INTs on the season so the QB production is actually there). I don't think the Patriots roster will be resembling SF's any time soon so we likely won't be achieving their model.

Well Rham is a start hope that Thornton improves get a legit TE and another WR we are basically there. Hit on the latter two and we are there.

 

[crawhammer]

Well Rham is a start hope that Thornton improves get a legit TE and another WR we are basically there. Hit on the latter two and we are there.

Love Stevenson, he looks like a great all purpose RB. Still McCaffrey is probably better.

Otherwise you've got 3 major asks there and you didn't even mention the defense, which is good, but certainly not on SF's level.

Honestly I'm counting on nothing from Thornton. I'm good with a true WR1 with Parker, Bourne and Meyers... that would be a very solid WR group. But it's going to take a lot to match Deebo and Aiyuk.

Kittle is much better than Henry, who's totally fine, but Kittle's a top tier TE. If the Patriots dump Jonnu and bring in a true compliment to Henry then maybe two can equal the production of Kittle.

Then there's the QB spot. Purdy may be the guy, or not, we'll see how the postseason continues for him. So SF may have questions at QB but look at their regular season production compared with the Patriots:

Patriots QBs:

19 TDs
14 INTs
3815 yards
87.7 passer rating

49ers QBs:

30 TDs
9 INTs
4049 yards
102.3 passer rating

49ers come out significantly ahead even at QB (which granted in part has to do with the superior supporting cast and coaching).

 

[PatsFan2]

Love Stevenson, he looks like a great all purpose RB. Still McCaffrey is probably better.

Otherwise you've got 3 major asks there and you didn't even mention the defense, which is good, but certainly not on SF's level.

Honestly I'm counting on nothing from Thornton. I'm good with a true WR1 with Parker, Bourne and Meyers... that would be a very solid WR group. But it's going to take a lot to match Deebo and Aiyuk.

Kittle is much better than Henry, who's totally fine, but Kittle's a top tier TE. If the Patriots dump Jonnu and bring in a true compliment to Henry then maybe two can equal the production of Kittle.

Then there's the QB spot. Purdy may be the guy, or not, we'll see how the postseason continues for him. So SF may have questions at QB but look at their regular season production compared with the Patriots:

Patriots QBs:

19 TDs
14 INTs
3815 yards
87.7 passer rating

49ers QBs:

30 TDs
9 INTs
4049 yards
102.3 passer rating

49ers come out significantly ahead even at QB (which granted in part has to do with the superior supporting cast and coaching).

Oh I am not saying we even compare I'm saying get two more legit players and we won't be very far behind. I also think Thornton is going to be very good with Bob who had success with a similar nine route WR Will Fuller.

 

[crawhammer]

Oh I am not saying we even compare I'm saying get two more legit players and we won't be very far behind. I also think Thornton is going to be very good with Bob who had success with a similar nine route WR Will Fuller.

Well O'Brien at least should be a major step in the right direction. Too bad he's coming in a year late and now basically has to rebuild the offense.

 

[PatsFan2]

Well O'Brien at least should be a major step in the right direction. Too bad he's coming in a year late and now basically has to rebuild the offense.

That's a good thing because Bob will get the players that he thinks fits his Offense. Bob probably knows that Mac Jones needs very good players to make him look good and not the other way around.

 

[Bill Lee]

IMO these are the most problematic QBs from a fan's perspective and sometimes from a GM's perspective. I'd say roughly the 9-12 rankings for QBs. Their numbers are often fine, they make pro bowls, but they just don't have that other gear to carry a team on their backs. You wind up looking bad if you don't re-sign them (I mean, look at the alternative with Washington) but then you've sunk as much cost into them as a top tier guy.

This reminds me of the 'Dalton Scale' concept from the ATN podcast:

Dalton did not possess the ability to make a team better or worse -- rather, his success or failure was predicated entirely on what was built around him. Andy Dalton wouldn't make you worse ... but he couldn't make you better, either.

These ideas became the basis of what Wess called The Dalton Scale. Here's how Chris explained it on a 2019 episode of the Around The NFL podcast:

"Andy Dalton represents quarterback purgatory. If you are ranked below Andy Dalton, your franchise needs a quarterback. If you're ranked above Andy Dalton, you're in ship-shape, everything's figured out, you're good to go."

Source: The Dalton Scale: Top candidates to be prime meridian of QB1s in 2022 NFL season

Purgatory is the limbo-land between heaven and hell. You just stay there in limbo, not knowing if you're going up and down.

If you read the piece (written before this season), the QBs that fit the description in the current era are Kirk Cousins and Ryan Tannehill.

Another that comes to mind for me is Derek Carr (even though the author of the piece was more optimistic in the off-season).

And, unfortunately I think that's the trajectory Mac is on.

Won't make us worse than we should be, won't make us better than we should be.

Derek Carr is one of the comps for Mac during the draft, and IMO it was a good one.

Probably going to be treading water till we find someone better, which won't happen soon.

I hope I'm wrong on this...

Maybe I'll feel more optimistic if we see something better at the end of next preseason, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This reminds me of the 'Dalton Scale' concept from the ATN podcast:



Source: The Dalton Scale: Top candidates to be prime meridian of QB1s in 2022 NFL season

Purgatory is the limbo-land between heaven and hell. You just stay there in limbo, not knowing if you're going up and down.

If you read the piece (written before this season), the QBs that fit the description in the current era are Kirk Cousins and Ryan Tannehill.

Another that comes to mind for me is Derek Carr (even though the author of the piece was more optimistic in the off-season).

And, unfortunately I think that's the trajectory Mac is on.

Won't make us worse than we should be, won't make us better than we should be.

Derek Carr is one of the comps for Mac during the draft, and IMO it was a good one.

Probably going to be treading water till we find someone better, which won't happen soon.

I hope I'm wrong on this...

Maybe I'll feel more optimistic if we see something better at the end of next preseason, but I'm not counting on it.

Interesting…I think Dalton is the prime “moronic long-term signing” because it’s so, so obvious he isn’t what you need. Daniel Jones comes to mind as a limited skill set just good enough to be a clear and obvious starter. And yes, there’s definitely a Mac Jones path here.

I’d rank guys like Cousins and Prescott ahead of Dalton in the next tier up. I don’t think these guys are really average or limited..they just lack that next level...almost like being in the upper range of purgatory. And you can’t really fault the GM for giving them the money either.

 

[venecol]

Interesting…I think Dalton is the prime “moronic long-term signing” because it’s so, so obvious he isn’t what you need. Daniel Jones comes to mind as a limited skill set just good enough to be a clear and obvious starter. And yes, there’s definitely a Mac Jones path here.

I’d rank guys like Cousins and Prescott ahead of Dalton in the next tier up. I don’t think these guys are really average or limited..they just lack that next level...almost like being in the upper range of purgatory. And you can’t really fault the GM for giving them the money either.

Where would you rank Watson? This past season is a throw away imo. Can't wait to see how he does w/ a full offseason. The talent is definitely there.

 

[farn]

People go gaga over the QBs. Even the highest rated ones aren’t winning. Herbert does nothing but (1) not make the playoffs or (2) lose asap in the playoffs. Allen - the chosen one - is one of the very reasons Buffalo is out. Too many TOs this year.

Mahomes is VG. He’s got one SB and if he doesn’t win this year, he’ll be 30 with one SB….

“Waiting for our Mahomes” ? That might indeed be after we are all gone. Or never. And even IF they get a Mahomes - it might be one more SB…

 

[Bill Lee]

Interesting…I think Dalton is the prime “moronic long-term signing” because it’s so, so obvious he isn’t what you need. Daniel Jones comes to mind as a limited skill set just good enough to be a clear and obvious starter. And yes, there’s definitely a Mac Jones path here.

I’d rank guys like Cousins and Prescott ahead of Dalton in the next tier up. I don’t think these guys are really average or limited..they just lack that next level...almost like being in the upper range of purgatory. And you can’t really fault the GM for giving them the money either.

Agree. You can't fault the last GM for signing Carr to a top-tier contract since there wasn't a good alternative in the wings and letting him go means you have nothing, yet everyone knows he wasn't/isn't a top-tier guy. Also, now you can't fault the current GM for dumping Carr and eating the huge salary cap hit, since he isn't making the team any better.

 

[Bill Lee]

Herbert does nothing but (1) not make the playoffs or (2) lose asap in the playoffs. Allen - the chosen one - is one of the very reasons Buffalo is out. Too many TOs this year.

I see Herbert and Allen in the "can win with the right talent and coaching around them" category.

I see Cousins in the "chronic choker" category: would need the stars, the moons and the planets to all line up for him to be on the verge, and he'd still find a way to choke.