(Edited Title:) Writer thinks Zappe is winning the QB "battle"?

[SammyBlueCat]

Another mind reader. Why do you assume I didn't read the thread before commenting? Is that something you do?

because your most recent comment does not account for a conversation that I was having with another poster

no mind reading required

Go ahead and believe what you want. It's a free country.

If you believe that the Patriots possess an elite defense that's your right.

 

[sb1]

Would anyone here like to be quoted in my exclusive upcoming piece for musketfire about how actually Trace McSorely is currently winning the QB battle.

We had Zappe winning it quietly, Mac winning it loudly so McSorely is winning it silently. Nobody is talking about him. Good sign!

 

[Ian]

Last years games against Buffalo are not a good examples. Both games Buffalo had secure leads and let up. What about the games against the Ravens and the Bears? Have they learned to stop a running qb? Is Kirk Cousins elite? Aaron Rodgers is still pretty good however he was able to complete passes to wide open receivers with the game on the line in overtime.

Again - I am not saying that they are awful but I am concerned that their numbers look unrealistically good because they soundly defeated teams with ill equipped Qb's. It is a stretch to label the defense "elite".

That finale was a little different. They held Allen in check for a lot of it and actually finally decided to hit him when he got outside the pocket, which they didn't do well in the first meeting. I think most people forget that the Patriots were up 17-14 early in the third quarter before they gave up that kick return for a touchdown. They basically fell apart from there.

And yes, they got more athletic and they did a good job of containing running quarterbacks later in the year (that Ravens game was in Week 3). As for Rodgers, Zappe would have beaten him if Patricia hadn't been so conservative down the stretch and just let the kid sling it because the defense kept them in the game.

They also did just fine against Minnesota, but you may have forgotten (and I had as well) that they gave up a 97-yard kickoff return for a touchdown right after going up 23-16 in that third quarter. Those plays are a killer.

Special teams down the stretch ended up being a bigger deal than the defense. Defense gave up just 21 in that last game, which was nothing short of a miracle considering it was on the road in an emotional environment (Hamlin was also there that day IIRC).

 

[Kasmir]

because your most recent comment does not account for a conversation that I was having with another poster

no mind reading required

Go ahead an believe what you want. It's a free country.

If you believe that the Patriots possess an elite defense that's your right.

Since you called me out for not understanding you, pray tell what is it that you posted that you think I missed? You said the Pats defense wasn't elite because if it were they should have won more big games. I was challenging that statement. Nowhere did I say (or think) that you said the Pats defense was "dog food".

 

[SammyBlueCat]

I don’t need to look up what I witnessed with focused attention.
You are arguing that because the team lost 9 games anything you say negative must therefore be right.

I made it clear a long time ago that the Patriots defense last year trounced several teams that were without a NFL starting QB

Another poster provided the data

You responded "what?" and that is when our conversation started.

Not once have you made an effort to be pursusasive regarding why you believe that this is an elite defense

 

[SammyBlueCat]

That finale was a little different. They held Allen in check for a lot of it and actually decided to finally hit him when he got outside the pocket, which they didn't do well in the first meeting. I think most people forget that the Patriots were up 17-14 early in the third quarter before they gave up that kick return for a touchdown. They basically fell apart from there.

And yes, they got more athletic and they did a good job of containing running quarterbacks later in the year (that Ravens game was in Week 3). As for Rodgers, Zappe would have beaten him if Patricia hadn't been so conservative down the stretch and just let the kid sling it because the defense kept them in the game.

They also did just fine against Minnesota, but you may have forgotten (and I had as well) that they gave up a 97-yard kickoff return for a touchdown right after going up 23-16 in that third quarter. Those plays are a killer.

Special teams down the stretch ended up being a bigger deal than the defense. Defense gave up just 21 in that last game, which was nothing short of a miracle considering it was on the road in an emotional environment (Hamlin was also there that day IIRC).

All of this is good information.

Can you provide some light at the end of the tunnel regarding running qbs?

It is true that kick off returns can be back breakers.

Question: Can we really count on them to make a stop when they absolutely need it?

 

[PatsFan2]

Last years games against Buffalo are not a good examples. Both games Buffalo had secure leads and let up. (35 points scored in the December game) What about the games against the Ravens and the Bears? Have they learned to stop a running qb? Is Kirk Cousins elite? Aaron Rodgers is still pretty good however he was able to complete passes to wide open receivers with the game on the line in overtime.

Again - I am not saying that they are awful but I am concerned that their numbers look unrealistically good because they soundly defeated teams with ill equipped Qb's. It is a stretch to label the defense "elite".

We are going to know very early if this Defense measures up Eagles - Dolphins - Jets with Rodgers and Dallas right off the bat tough Four game stretch right there.

 

[Ian]

All of this is good information. Question: Can we really count on them to make a stop when they absolutely need it?

You make a good point, but in a sense that the key question is can the offense (ie: Mac) make a play when they absolutely need it? I've obviously given him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd really like to see him finally have that breakthrough moment because that hasn't happened yet so far for him. And it needs to, especially for a team that is trying to start playing in meaningful games again.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Since you called me out for not understanding you, pray tell what is it that you posted that you think I missed? You said the Pats defense wasn't elite because if it were they should have won more big games. I was challenging that statement. Nowhere did I say (or think) that you said the Pats defense was "dog food".

Another posted called our defense stout and elite

I pointed out that their numbers look artificially good because they played a few backup / rookie qbs

A third very passionate poster simply stated "what?"

And off we went to the races

Keep in Mind that even though I want the best outcomes (Patriot wins) We should be able to discuss their flaws

 

[SammyBlueCat]

You make a good point, but in a sense that the key question is can the offense (ie: Mac) make a play when they absolutely need it? I've obviously given him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd really like to see him finally have that breakthrough moment because that hasn't happened yet so far for him. And it needs to, especially for a team that is trying to start playing in meaningful games again.

True.

 

[Ian]

Another posted called our defense stout and elite

I pointed out that their numbers look artificially good because they played a few backup / rookie qbs

A third very passionate poster simply stated "what?"

And off we went to the races

Keep in Mind that even though I want the best outcomes (Patriot wins) We should be able to discuss their flaws

They're a top 10 and maybe even top 5. But they need to get more support so they're not out there for extended periods. I was looking at the totals after you mentioned a couple of these games and the Vikings had the ball for 36:17, the Bengals had it for 36:48, and in the first meeting against Buffalo, the Bills had it for 38:08, etc. Tough to keep making stops when you spend the entire game on the field.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

We are going to know very early if this Defense measures up Eagles - Dolphins - Jets with Rodgers and Dallas right off the bat tough Four game stretch right there.

Exactly! The defense has to be strong for Mac (or Zap if circumstances dictate that he) to have a chance.

 

[Triumph]

You are basing that on nothing. But all accounts, Jones is an extremely had working QB and a fierce competitor. No one questions his work ethic. Of all the knocks against the guy, I have never heard one knock being that he doesn't work hard enough and takes his position for granted.

Nope

Covid Cam lost his job paving the way for the #1 draft pick. You folks tell it like Jones unseated a 1st ballot Hofer.

Zappe was 2 - 0, but Jones got his job back because the media was all over Jones losing his job. We know now that Jones went whining to folks outside the organization.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

They're a top 10 and maybe even top 5. But they need to get more support so they're not out there for extended periods. I was looking at the totals after you mentioned a couple of these games and the Vikings had the ball for 36:17, the Bengals had it for 36:48, and in the first meeting against Buffalo, the Bills had it for 38:08, etc. Tough to keep making stops when you spend the entire game on the field.

That's 100% true. If our Offense consistently goes 3 and out, the defense will get tired.
If opponents are winning the battle for time possession, that is partially the defenses fault too. No?
Perhaps their coaches are designing good plays?

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Nope

Covid Cam lost his job paving the way for the #1 draft pick. You folks tell it like Jones unseated a 1st ballot Hofer.

Zappe was 2 - 0, but Jones got his job back because the media was all over Jones losing his job. We know now that Jones went whining to folks outside the organization.

Zappe was 2-0. Both opponents were in terrible disarray at that time.

Did the coaches not look at film and supervise the team practice and determine that their may be mitigating circumstances leading to a 2-0 record?

 

[Ian]

That's 100% true. If our Offense consistently goes 3 and out, the defense will get tired.
If opponents are winning the battle for time possession, that is partially the defenses fault too. No?
Perhaps their coaches are designing good plays?

It is, but again, the offense needs to stay on the field and give the guys a breather. Even the best athletes will run out of gas if they're not given much of a break in-between competing. As the defense wears down, opposing offenses tend to start having more success because it's tougher to play defense than offense since the offense knows what it's doing, where as the defense has to react. And that's a lot tougher when you've been out on the field all afternoon.

 

[Ian]

Nope

Covid Cam lost his job paving the way for the #1 draft pick. You folks tell it like Jones unseated a 1st ballot Hofer.

Zappe was 2 - 0, but Jones got his job back because the media was all over Jones losing his job. We know now that Jones went whining to folks outside the organization.

Jones got his job back because he had built up currency and earned it. I know you mention the Bledsoe/Brady thing, but Bledsoe lost a lot of the benefit of the doubt after going 5-11 the year before and then starting out the season 0-2.

Jones was coming off a 10-7 season and despite the three losses, did some good things in those first three games. He also was here all offseason and put in the work. And Belichick botched that Chicago game so badly that it's sort of inexcusable. He should have taken the reigns, said "I'm starting Zappe until Mac is 100%," and shut down the discussion. He didn't, and it put both Zappe and Jones in a tough spot.

Right now, we've got the best of both worlds. Even if you want to trade Mac, you need to build up some currency there and the best way to do that is to let the kid play and see where it goes. If he plays well, the price goes up and somebody will take him.

Keep in mind, the day is going to come where they both eventually won't be able to be here. Whoever is the better of the two will stay, the other will be dealt. So we should be rooting for both guys to succeed as much as possible so that the club gets back enough to hopefully improve the roster and move forward.

 

[Kasmir]

Another posted called our defense stout and elite

I pointed out that their numbers look artificially good because they played a few backup / rookie qbs

A third very passionate poster simply stated "what?"

And off we went to the races

Keep in Mind that even though I want the best outcomes (Patriot wins) We should be able to discuss their flaws

You're posting on a public forum so don't act surprised if folks respond. If you want to have a 1:1 conversation with Ian then make that request.

Your ad hom attack on me was out of line and results in this ridiculous exchange.

Again, I was challenging exactly your contention that the defense looked artificially good because they feasted on weak teams. That has become a meme here, and I've challenged it repeatedly by simply asking how you know that's not equally true of all teams.

No one has even tried to respond to that challenge.

I've posted some statistical comparative evidence (DVOA) that it's not true that the Pats defense did relatively poorly vs good offenses. I can actually believe that further comparative analysis could contradict that, but I see no such analysis from anyone.

It's hardly just you, but I'm sorry, in a competitive sport you have to compare to the competition to get a useful baseline. That is no fun and too much work for 99% of fans. That's while I think BCG is an arrogant SOB I respect his draft evaluations immensely because he puts in the hard work to analyze actual play. It's also why for all it's faults PFF is vastly more credible than 99% of fan analysis because they actually look at all the players on all the teams.

The Pats were a mediocre team last year. Their offense was to my great disappointment well below average and their special teams were worst in the league. Their defense certainly had flaws, but by any measure they were definitely a top defense and would likely have held their own in the playoffs.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

You're posting on a public forum so don't act surprised if folks respond. If you want to have a 1:1 conversation with Ian then make that request.

Your ad hom attack on me was out of line and results in this ridiculous exchange.

Again, I was challenging exactly your contention that the defense looked artificially good because they feasted on weak teams. That has become a meme here, and I've challenged it repeatedly by simply asking how you know that's not equally true of all teams.

No one has even tried to respond to that challenge.

I've posted some statistical comparative evidence (DVOA) that it's not true that the Pats defense did relatively poorly vs good offenses. I can actually believe that further comparative analysis could contradict that, but I see no such analysis from anyone.

It's hardly just you, but I'm sorry, in a competitive sport you have to compare to the competition to get a useful baseline. That is no fun and too much work for 99% of fans. That's while I think BCG is an arrogant SOB I respect his draft evaluations immensely because he puts in the hard work to analyze actual play. It's also why for all it's faults PFF is vastly more credible than 99% of fan analysis because they actually look at all the players on all the teams.

The Pats were a mediocre team last year. Their offense was to my great disappointment well below average and their special teams were worst in the league. Their defense certainly had flaws, but by any measure they were definitely a top defense and would likely have held their own in the playoffs.

Ad hom attack??? OK. SO sorry.

To answer your question (about defenses) not every team plays the same schedule.

When I watch a Patriots game, it feels like no lead is safe *except* when the opponent starts a back-up qb.

This goes back to when Brady was still here.

I am sure that your statistical work is very good. It's watching the actual game that should bring comfort to us.

 

[Kasmir]

Ad hom attack??? OK. SO sorry.

You said:

@Kasmir Do you always jump into conversations without reading for context?

Maybe you don't know what ad hominem means?