Dolphins to hire OL coach Dave DeGuglielmo

[Ring 6]

Agree. The matter surrounding the dismissal of Googs goes beyond Stork pecking corn.

It has nothing to do with stork lifting his head being chosen as the trigger.

But to be specific, one of the major criticisms was the line's inability to venture beyond a count of "0" after he bobbed his head. I just watched a couple of drives from that game. In the shotgun after TB stomped or under center and he tapped his butt, once Stork bobbed his head it was a zero-count snap. No 1-MS, or 2-MS or 3-MS. He hiked it and DEN knew it.

Ok but that has nothing to do with the line. The line doesn't call the snap count. STORK is raising his head to alert the other players that the snap count is starting. (Brady's action tells STORK he is ready)
In other words storks head raise is SET and there is a silent HUT with a snap count called in the huddle. STORK had nothing to do with the snap count.

Now, you can argue the line was banged up and did not have the cohesiveness to pull off lengthy silent counts with 85,000 screaming fans. I get that but this organization has a high standard and in years past with new players on the line it was not an issue. That year it was and not getting the line to play the way they needed to be prepared in that game. That is on BB but is on Googs as well.

I'm talking about tipping the snap count with the head raise, which simply cannot by any means be blamed on the OL coach, not the overall performance.


I mean think this through. For you to be right either Brady calls the play and then asks STORK for the snap count which is ludicrous. Or they don't have one and tell STORK to snap whenever he feels like it. That would be handing away any advantage the offense has. The reason for a snap count is the offense knows when the snap
Is coming. If they did this the OC should be fired.

In the middle of the season, Googs speculated to someone he thought he was going to be fired...but why did he think that? Clearly he knew he wasn't doing something right and he knew it or BB made him aware of it.

I'm not sure why you are adding this. We have no disagreement about his firing. (Can you link where he told someone he was going to be fired that would be very interesting to read).
What we disagree about is that if the snap count was being picked up by Denver it's not the OL coaches fault.
It can't be.
He can be a bad coach and not be responsible for everything you don't like.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It has nothing to do with stork lifting his head being chosen as the trigger.


Ok but that has nothing to do with the line. The line doesn't call the snap count. STORK is raising his head to alert the other players that the snap count is starting. (Brady's action tells STORK he is ready)
In other words storks head raise is SET and there is a silent HUT with a snap count called in the huddle. STORK had nothing to do with the snap count.


I'm talking about tipping the snap count with the head raise, which simply cannot by any means be blamed on the OL coach, not the overall performance.


I mean think this through. For you to be right either Brady calls the play and then asks STORK for the snap count which is ludicrous. Or they don't have one and tell STORK to snap whenever he feels like it. That would be handing away any advantage the offense has. The reason for a snap count is the offense knows when the snap
Is coming. If they did this the OC should be fired.


I'm not sure why you are adding this. We have no disagreement about his firing. (Can you link where he told someone he was going to be fired that would be very interesting to read).
What we disagree about is that if the snap count was being picked up by Denver it's not the OL coaches fault.
It can't be.
He can be a bad coach and not be responsible for everything you don't like.

I give up.

You know BB, JMD WR coach, TE coach and OL coach all collaborate during the week to ensure everything is synchronous and the players and coaches are on the same page on game day. They go through cadence, snap counts, everything.

I understand its not up to Stork and Googs to decide the snap count. But it is up to Googs to make sure Stork and the line are comfortable with any cadence, snap count changes BB, JMD and Brady want to implement. My firm belief is he was unable to get the line to respond to that request by the DEN game.

Yea I'm trying to look for the article in which he said that. It was surprising.

 

[Froob]

Does anyone know if Goug had anything to do with the head bob? Anybody?

 

[Ring 6]

I give up.

You know BB, JMD WR coach, TE coach and OL coach all collaborate during the week to ensure everything is synchronous and the players and coaches are on the same page on game day. They go through cadence, snap counts, everything.

I have said that OL coach is responsible at the same level as wr RB TE QB coach would be.

I understand its not up to Stork and Googs to decide the snap count. But it is up to Googs to make sure Stork and the line are comfortable with any cadence, snap count changes BB, JMD and Brady want to implement. My firm belief is he was unable to get the line to respond to that request by the DEN game.

How do you "get the line to respond to" the mistake of the snap count being in 1 too often.
Again I am not championing degooglymoogly I am only debunking the myth that it was storks fault (which came uobwhen he was cut) or his OL coaches that the snap count was on 1 all the time. Lavish whatever blame you wish on degooglymoogly but put it where it belongs not in something he wasn't responsible for.

Yea I'm trying to look for the article in which he said that. It was surprising.

Cool. Thanks.

 

[Tony2046]

I have said that OL coach is responsible at the same level as wr RB TE QB coach would be.


How do you "get the line to respond to" the mistake of the snap count being in 1 too often.
Again I am not championing degooglymoogly I am only debunking the myth that it was storks fault (which came uobwhen he was cut) or his OL coaches that the snap count was on 1 all the time. Lavish whatever blame you wish on degooglymoogly but put it where it belongs not in something he wasn't responsible for.


Cool. Thanks.

I get hung up on the head bob being the trigger but I understand your point. One thing that has stuck with me is Brady saying after SB 49 "We went to the triple head bob and we hadn't done that the whole game". Which lead me to believe the head bob was the trigger.

 

[Ring 6]

I get hung up on the head bob being the trigger but I understand your point. One thing that has stuck with me is Brady saying after SB 49 "We went to the triple head bob and we hadn't done that the whole game". Which lead me to believe the head bob was the trigger.

The head bob is a perfect trigger. QB tells center he is ready, center looks up when he is ready, everyone can see the center raise his head.
Replace head bob with OMAHA in a verbal snap count.
Everyone knew OMAHA was the trigger but didn't know the count so it was not a tell. Exact same with center raising the head.

 

[Ring 6]

I get hung up on the head bob being the trigger but I understand your point. One thing that has stuck with me is Brady saying after SB 49 "We went to the triple head bob and we hadn't done that the whole game". Which lead me to believe the head bob was the trigger.

Not sure about the Brady comment. It might have referred to something else because I'm not sure why you would go silent snap count in a SB.

 

[RobertWeathers]

How do you "get the line to respond to" the mistake of the snap count being in 1 too often.
Again I am not championing degooglymoogly I am only debunking the myth that it was storks fault (which came uobwhen he was cut) or his OL coaches that the snap count was on 1 all the time. Lavish whatever blame you wish on degooglymoogly but put it where it belongs not in something he wasn't responsible for.

To be clear I don't think it's Goog's ownership on what the snap count will be. I do think it does fall on Googs to ensure the C and OL is well coached and comfortable enough with the different types of cadences BB and the team want to implement. Seeing that they were hiking on zero tells me they weren't as they ALWAYS hiked on zero and nothing else. That means two things. One: Stork was insubordinate (which I don't believe) Two: They tried to variate the cadence in practice all week and for whatever reason, the unit couldnt get it done. Clearly BB pinned that on Googs.

Cool. Thanks.

Googs also said he "felt left out" and "blindsided" by the decision to release Mankins. I need to find this.

 

[Tony2046]

Not sure about the Brady comment. It might have referred to something else because I'm not sure why you would go silent snap count in a SB.

He was discussing the play at the end of the SB while they were at the 1 yard line. They used a "triple head bob" which pulled Bennett offsides.

 

[Ring 6]

To be clear I don't think it's Goog's ownership on what the snap count will be.

That has been my point in every post in this thread.

I do think it does fall on Googs to ensure the C and OL is well coached and comfortable enough with the different types of cadences BB and the team want to implement. Seeing that they were hiking on zero tells me they weren't as they ALWAYS hiked on zero and nothing else.

First that isn't actually true.
Second are you seriously telling me that you think the OL was incapable of a snap count other than 1 (or zero, but I don't understand what that means) and bill belichick accepted that? They would face to be the 5 dumbest people in the state of Massachusetts.
And by the way, why the OL? Why not wr, TE, RB?

That means two things. One: Stork was insubordinate (which I don't believe) Two: They tried to variate the cadence in practice all week and for whatever reason, the unit couldnt get it done. Clearly BB pinned that on Googs.

3 they f-ed up and called if one 1 too often and Denver guessed right.
You can't possibly tell me that your conclusion is they are too stupid to do a snap count in there head when they gave responded to snap counts there entire football lives. If they are that stupid no coaching would help.

His is it CLEARLY BB pinned that in googs?
You are making something up that is a wild unbelievable virtually impossible thing then saying it's clear that it was the reason a contract wasn't renewed.
It like me saying I think degooglymoogly is creepy and I bet he felt up Linda Holliday at the Christmas party and clearly it happened because BB fired him.

Googs also said he "felt left out" and "blindsided" by the decision to release Mankins. I need to find this.

Ok. That's further proof that the mystical head bob fallacy conspiracy isn't clearly why he was fired.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ring 6]

He was discussing the play at the end of the SB while they were at the 1 yard line. They used a "triple head bob" which pulled Bennett offsides.

That's different. That's the QB head bobbing in HUT. The movement can draw a defender offsides
Technically it's an offensive penalty but they rarely call it.

Totally different thing.

 

[Tony2046]

That's different. That's the QB head bobbing in HUT. The movement can draw a defender offsides
Technically it's an offensive penalty but they rarely call it.

Totally different thing.

It was the center bobbing his head.

You can see it here at 13:50

 

[Lee144]

DG was fired after his O-Line allowed 31 yards on 14 carries despite Denver being in dime or nickel on all but one of those runs. Scar was involved in the recruiting process despite DG being the coach. Bill felt DG was not providing the coaching that the group needed and Scar was the logical choice. Scar is a former devil dog and big fan of the law of repetition. The fact that an OL was tipping the silent snap count was a coachable issue that didn't get resolved. Also, food for thought, the head bob isn't the only cue for a silent snap...it really comes down to the unit and can be changed if needed.

 

[Ring 6]

DG was fired after his O-Line allowed 31 yards on 14 carries despite Denver being in dime or nickel on all but one of those runs. Scar was involved in the recruiting process despite DG being the coach. Bill felt DG was not providing the coaching that the group needed and Scar was the logical choice. Scar is a former devil dog and big fan of the law of repetition. The fact that an OL was tipping the silent snap count was a coachable issue that didn't get resolved. Also, food for thought, the head bob isn't the only cue for a silent snap...it really comes down to the unit and can be changed if needed.

Except the ol wasn't tipping the snap.
The issue isn't what the trigger is it's that the count never changed.
And sure changing the trigger count also prevent the defense from knowing the snap count but:
1) the trigger isn't chosen by the OL coach. It's an OC responsibility as the trigger is for the entire offense not just the ol.
2) who cares if the defenses knkws the trigger if you vary the snap count (OMAHA says hi)
3) what other trigger would be as effective? Center raising the head after a cue from QB means QB and center are ready and the centers head us a trigger everyone can see. Using a different trigger sacrifices that for no gain when you simply need to vary the snap count.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Another thread gone to bickering blathering

Reluctantly,
Ignore Thread On

 

[Ring 6]

It was the center bobbing his head.

You can see it here at 13:50

Gotcha but it's a different thing than the silent snap head lift trigger.
This one is a trick to move and hope you trick them into jumping.

 

[Ring 6]

Another thread gone to bickering blathering

Reluctantly,
Ignore Thread On

So people discussing something they disagree on and respectfully making an argument to show their opinions and viewpoint is something that is not acceptable on a message board?

What are we here for?

 

[neuronet]

So people discussing something they disagree on and respectfully making an argument to show their opinions and viewpoint is something that is not acceptable on a message board?

What are we here for?

 

[RobertWeathers]

First that isn't actually true.
Second are you seriously telling me that you think the OL was incapable of a snap count other than 1 (or zero, but I don't understand what that means) and bill belichick accepted that? They would face to be the 5 dumbest people in the state of Massachusetts.
And by the way, why the OL? Why not wr, TE, RB?

Add them too. It was a systematic failure.

3 they f-ed up and called if one 1 too often and Denver guessed right.
You can't possibly tell me that your conclusion is they are too stupid to do a snap count in there head when they gave responded to snap counts there entire football lives. If they are that stupid no coaching would help.

His is it CLEARLY BB pinned that in googs?
You are making something up that is a wild unbelievable virtually impossible thing then saying it's clear that it was the reason a contract wasn't renewed.
It like me saying I think degooglymoogly is creepy and I bet he felt up Linda Holliday at the Christmas party and clearly it happened because BB fired him.

Its not that these guys can't count 2, 3 or 4 Mississippi. Of course they can. I'm suggesting they just couldn't get it right in practice for whatever reason. Additionally, what has not been discussed is I think the concern was Storks workload and the lack of effective coaching by Googs in that area. As you know a center's responsibility making protection calls, identifying potential blitzing defenders especially if the defense is constantly in motion before the snap. Since the Pats are zone blocking team, that adds to Stork's responsibility...which I don't think he handled well which Brady had to. Maybe all that deciphering TB12 had to do made it impossible to change up the snap cadence.

Ok. That's further proof that the mystical head bob fallacy conspiracy isn't clearly why he was fired.

I dunna know who thinks just the head bob got Googs canned.

 

[Ring 6]

Add them too. It was a systematic failure.






Its not that these guys can't count 2, 3 or 4 Mississippi. Of course they can. I'm suggesting they just couldn't get it right in practice for whatever reason. Additionally, what has not been discussed is I think the concern was Storks workload and the lack of effective coaching by Googs in that area. As you know a center's responsibility making protection calls, identifying potential blitzing defenders especially if the defense is constantly in motion before the snap. Since the Pats are zone blocking team, that adds to Stork's responsibility...which I don't think he handled well which Brady had to. Maybe all that deciphering TB12 had to do made it impossible to change up the snap cadence.

But you are making those things up as possibilities when the truth is they just didn't vary the snap count effectively. (If you watch the entire game it wasn't ALWAYS 1 it just was an awful lot which dismisses the idea they had no choice.)

You have gone from the head bob tipped off the defense to it didn't but something else the ol did that you
Don't know must have.
You are starting from the answer (OL coach to blame) and backfilling assumptions with no evidence to get there

I dunna know who thinks just the head bob got Googs canned.

Many have said so.