Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Actual Pats Fan]

I think Bill and Tom appreciate each other and any rift is a media creation. They made millions off each other and created a legacy that'll be unmatched.

Not a rift, yes. But Brady was clearly unhappy last year, and very happy where he is now.

 

[SVN]

its worth revisting. brady's words on bill's contribution -

 

[1960Pats]

Not a rift, yes. But Brady was clearly unhappy last year, and very happy where he is now.

I'm happy for him too.

One of the things that makes Brady as great as he is is his demand that the players on his team work as hard as he does. Maybe their lack of effort also had something to do with his unhappiness last year. Look at the criticism he took from fans here after he left while they lauded Cant Newton for pampering the same players. I think we know which style is best.

 

[1960Pats]

its worth revisting. brady's words on bill's contribution -

That video is why I think that Bill and Tom appreciate each other more than some fans and mediots believe. You can't go through all of that together and not have a mutual respect and lasting friendship.

 

[Kargetina]

Not a rift, yes. But Brady was clearly unhappy last year, and very happy where he is now.

The rift started when Brady and Gronk had historic SB performances and Belichick’s stubbornness didn’t give them a chance to win the game by overplaying Richards, Bademosi and Rowe while the guy that played 98% of snaps of the previous three years didn’t play. On top of that he didn’t give the team any explanation let alone an apology as evidenced later on by the likes of Amendola who were still wondering why Butler didn’t play even though he was dressed.

After that Belichick tried to trade Gronk to the Lions, another horrendous mistake in the making, as without Gronk we’re not beating the Chiefs in either game that year and we don’t win the SB. Gronk was ridiculously clutch that year even though he wasn’t prime Gronk. He also didn’t offer Brady a multy year contract and that was all she wrote.

SB 52 was the point of no return. Gronk had a pretty severe concussion against the Jags and still laid it all on the line when the SB came, Brady clutched the AFCCG without Edelman and Gronk and then had what should been the greatest SB performance ever but Bill thought sending a message to a guy that broke the 10 year SB draught, a guy that was an All Pro and Pro Bowler in consecutive years and a guy whose last game for the Pats was that SB was more important than the other 52 players, the coaching staff, everyone who worked towards SB 52 and the millions of fans.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

SB 52 was the point of no return.

Amazing he stuck around to win a sixth. We're lucky.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

A more realistic take is that teams need great QB's to be consistently successful, great QB's need great infrastructure and supporting pieces to consistently be successful.

Kraft:

-Took ambitious, risky steps to make purchasing the team possible, then paid a king's ransom for what was then considered a poor investment.
-Took advantage of a time-sensitive opportunity to keep the team in Massachusetts.
-Hired a coach who most if not all his advisors insisted was toxic.

Brady is the best QB ever and him coming here turned our fortunes

...Belichick bringing him here, and keeping him, giving him the opportunity to start and keeping him in there as the starter turned our fortunes.

Bill Belichick: Two 11-5 seasons, one in Cleveland and one in NE, without Brady.

Bart Starr: record without Lombardi: 17-34-2

Steve Young: record w/LA Express: 14-24; w/Tampa Bay: 3-16

Kurt Warner: record 2002-2007: 13-29

John Elway Super Bowl stats without cheating:

22-37-304 1/1/3 sacked 83.6
14-38-257 1/3/5 sacked 36.8
10-26-108 0/2/4 sacked 19.4

Tony Eason Super Bowl stats:

0-6-0 0/0/3 sacked 39.6

 

[crawhammer]

Not sure what you're getting at with that random (and useless) info but this is rich...

Bill Belichick: Two 11-5 seasons, one in Cleveland and one in NE, without Brady.

The one 11-5 season in Cleveland was surrounded by FOUR LOSING seasons. You conveniently forgot those. beLichick was a goon in Cleveland.

beLichick was getting his ass handed to him in New England until Mo Lewis came along. That's right, it took Bledsoe getting nearly killed before Brady would get his chance. beLichick stuck with Brady because, although he's not actually a genius, he's not actually irretrievably stupid either (unless we're talking 2015 or SB 52).

The meaningless 11-5 Cassel season followed an 18-1 season with a Super Bowl appearance.

beLichick won 17 division titles in 18 seasons with Brady.
beLichick won 0 division titles in 8 seasons without Brady.

Brady has 3 road playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance in his one season without beLichick. Brady is undeniably enhancing his already untouchable legacy. Belichick is looking like a goon that got lucky.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Notable Players on 2000 Patriots (5-11)

Drew Bledsoe
Kevin Faulk
J.R. Redmond
Patrick Pass
Troy Brown
Terry Glenn
Bruce Armstrong
Adrian Klemm
Damien Woody
Bobby Hamilton
Willie McGinest
Tedy Bruschi
Ted Johnson
Chris Slade
Tebucky Jones
Ty Law
Antwan Harris
Lawyer Milloy
Lonnie Paxton
Adam Vinatieri

Team Bill Narrative: This team was so bad, terrible, horrendous. Bill needed to completely rebuild the entire roster.

Also, Team Bill Narrative: Most of these guys were absolutely essential to the first three Super Bowls. Brady NeVeR wOuLdA won without a great supporting cast like this.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Kraft:

-Took ambitious, risky steps to make purchasing the team possible, then paid a king's ransom for what was then considered a poor investment.
-Took advantage of a time-sensitive opportunity to keep the team in Massachusetts.
-Hired a coach who most if not all his advisors insisted was toxic.


...Belichick bringing him here, and keeping him, giving him the opportunity to start and keeping him in there as the starter turned our fortunes.

Bill Belichick: Two 11-5 seasons, one in Cleveland and one in NE, without Brady.

Bart Starr: record without Lombardi: 17-34-2

Steve Young: record w/LA Express: 14-24; w/Tampa Bay: 3-16

Kurt Warner: record 2002-2007: 13-29

John Elway Super Bowl stats without cheating:

22-37-304 1/1/3 sacked 83.6
14-38-257 1/3/5 sacked 36.8
10-26-108 0/2/4 sacked 19.4

Tony Eason Super Bowl stats:

0-6-0 0/0/3 sacked 39.6

Look it. Belichick is debatabally the greatest coach of all time. His situational schemes are off the charts but to throw up two 11-5 seasons over a 25 year span without Brady isn't exactly an eye opening coaching stat. Also a bunch here like to brag for Bill because he drafted Brady and kept him as a starter....such vision. Then 2 seconds later Brady's importance for his role in the dynasty is practically dismissed by the same people.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Notable Players on 2000 Patriots (5-11)

Drew Bledsoe
Kevin Faulk
J.R. Redmond
Patrick Pass
Troy Brown
Terry Glenn
Bruce Armstrong
Adrian Klemm
Damien Woody
Bobby Hamilton
Willie McGinest
Tedy Bruschi
Ted Johnson
Chris Slade
Tebucky Jones
Ty Law
Antwan Harris
Lawyer Milloy
Lonnie Paxton
Adam Vinatieri

Team Bill Narrative: This team was so bad, terrible, horrendous. Bill needed to completely rebuild the entire roster.

Also, Team Bill Narrative: Most of these guys were absolutely essential to the first three Super Bowls. Brady NeVeR wOuLdA won without a great supporting cast like this.

I don't think there should be 'Team Bill' or 'Team Tom'.

Only Team Patriots.

People are anxious to tear apart Belichick, but to do so must dismiss and ignore all the work and critical, high pressure decisions he made to enable the victories.

Auerbach made his share of poor decisions and mistakes along the way too.

I felt we could very well have won nine Super Bowls. Branch, Butler and '15 come to mind.

Brady is a finished product now. He had lots of weapons in '07 but just came up short.

In 2000, Belichick did implement higher standards and more accountability in training camp.

Of course the first stupid narrative above is nonsense; although several absolutely key players were picked up who stepped up.

Yes, Tom might have succeeded then on a different team. Apparently all the Team Tomers regret Belichick being the only one to scout, draft, keep and start Brady. Otherwise Tom could have bagged groceries, walked on and conquered the world somewhere else.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Look it. Belichick is debatabally the greatest coach of all time. His situational schemes are off the charts but to throw up two 11-5 seasons over a 25 year span without Brady isn't exactly an eye opening coaching stat. Also a bunch here like to brag for Bill because he drafted Brady and kept him as a starter....such vision. Then 2 seconds later Brady's importance for his role in the dynasty is practically dismissed by the same people.

'practically dismissed'? How?

One 11-5 season over five years, then another over one year.

Parcels had one 11-5 season in four years including two losing seasons, and the ridiculous committee keeps on nominating him for the team Hall of Fame.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Not sure what you're getting at with that random (and useless) info but this is rich...

It's specific, relevant, revealing and...useful.

The one 11-5 season in Cleveland was surrounded by FOUR LOSING seasons. You conveniently forgot those.

I didn't forget them, and neither did Bill. The experience was invaluable in his future work.

Parcells' one 11-5 here was preceded by TWO LOSING seasons out of three.

beLichick was a goon in Cleveland.

He wasn't John Madden, Jeff Fisher or John Harbaugh.

beLichick stuck with Brady because, although he's not actually a genius, he's not actually irretrievably stupid either (unless we're talking 2015 or SB 52).

Won't argue those egregious errors, but most coaches are irretrievably stupid because they, like Raymond Berry for example, would have put Bledsoe right back in there and benched Brady, resulting in what happened to us in 1988.

The meaningless 11-5 Cassel season

It's a good thing we lost the tiebreaker, or we might have had another meaningless run to another meaningless Super Bowl title.

beLichick won 17 division titles in 18 seasons with Brady.
beLichick won 0 division titles in 8 seasons without Brady.

Auerbach won 9 division titles in 10 seasons with Russell.
Auerbach won 1 division title in 10 seasons without Russell.

Brady has 3 road playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance in his one season without beLichick.

Tony Eason has 3 road playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance in his one season when Grogan got hurt.

Belichick is looking like a goon that got lucky.

Belichick is looking like a great head coach whose former quarterback is excelling after two decades under his tutelage.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The rift started when Brady and Gronk had historic SB performances and Belichick’s stubbornness didn’t give them a chance to win the game by overplaying Richards, Bademosi and Rowe while the guy that played 98% of snaps of the previous three years didn’t play. On top of that he didn’t give the team any explanation let alone an apology as evidenced later on by the likes of Amendola who were still wondering why Butler didn’t play even though he was dressed.

After that Belichick tried to trade Gronk to the Lions, another horrendous mistake in the making, as without Gronk we’re not beating the Chiefs in either game that year and we don’t win the SB. Gronk was ridiculously clutch that year even though he wasn’t prime Gronk. He also didn’t offer Brady a multy year contract and that was all she wrote.

SB 52 was the point of no return. Gronk had a pretty severe concussion against the Jags and still laid it all on the line when the SB came, Brady clutched the AFCCG without Edelman and Gronk and then had what should been the greatest SB performance ever but Bill thought sending a message to a guy that broke the 10 year SB draught, a guy that was an All Pro and Pro Bowler in consecutive years and a guy whose last game for the Pats was that SB was more important than the other 52 players, the coaching staff, everyone who worked towards SB 52 and the millions of fans.

Spot on. I still like Belichick. He just outsmarts himself every now and then.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Delete

 

[PatsWSB47]

'practically dismissed'? How?

One 11-5 season over five years, then another over one year.

Parcels had one 11-5 season in four years including two losing seasons, and the ridiculous committee keeps on nominating him for the team Hall of Fame.

LOL. You literally are dismissing him by comparing him to Tony Eason right now. So Bill saw the Tony Eason in Brady, that's why he kept him in as a starter? Then you give him no credit for excelling now. Its Bill's tutelage. That's how Brady is defined.

 

[1960Pats]

'practically dismissed'? How?

One 11-5 season over five years, then another over one year.

Parcels had one 11-5 season in four years including two losing seasons, and the ridiculous committee keeps on nominating him for the team Hall of Fame.

The idea that Tuna Crap's name even comes up for the Pats' HOF is repulsive to me. He sabotaged the Pats' SB in 1995 while weaseling his way to the Jets during the season.

 

[SVN]

Tom Brady Praises Bill Belichick: 'Could Never Have Accomplished The Things In My Career Without His Support'

Tom Brady seemingly did all he could to end any Brady vs. Belichick debates when he went out of his way to offer excessive praise to the man who drafted and developed him on the road to superstardom.

boston.cbslocal.com

Later in his 45-minute press conference, Brady expounded on that reality, even though he wasn’t speaking specifically about Belichick. Brady was asked why no NFL team has won consecutive Super Bowls since his Patriots did it in 2003 and 2004, and the quarterback showed that he fully recognizes that a whole lot more goes into winning Super Bowls than a quarterback making some nice passes.

“I think what makes it such a challenge is it’s hard to win one Super Bowl,” Brady said. “That just is something that, it’s difficult because it’s tough to win one Super Bowl. Every year, you know, 32 teams at it, every team can only spend the same amount of money, everyone drafts, everything’s meant to be 8-8. There’s salary caps. You just can’t go buy a football team. You have to develop players, develop processes and put good processes in place and you can be consistently a great football team.”

 

[DaBruinz]

Brady ENDS the discussion on this topic:

“I certainly could never have accomplished the things in my career without his support and his teachings,” Brady said. “He’s an incredible coach and mentor for me. I’ve had a lot of those in my career, but obviously he’s at the top of the list.”

Tom Brady Praises Bill Belichick: 'Could Never Have Accomplished The Things In My Career Without His Support'

Tom Brady seemingly did all he could to end any Brady vs. Belichick debates when he went out of his way to offer excessive praise to the man who drafted and developed him on the road to superstardom.

boston.cbslocal.com

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The idea that Tuna Crap's name even comes up for the Pats' HOF is repulsive to me. He sabotaged the Pats' SB in 1995 while weaseling his way to the Jets during the season.

He was a jerk. It took me years to appreciate his genuine effectiveness and undeniable leadership ability which motivated players to perform their best under the greatest pressure, and which nurtured a tree of excellent coaches including Belichick and Coughlin.

Like most of us, I've always hated the Giants. This was a real bias for me. Plus, his abrasive behavior was a turnoff and I know a lot of you can't stand his egotistic bombasticness.

But everywhere he's been including in two stints here (he was an assistant in '80), his players liked him. They fought, argued, got insulted, and played hard for him. And I really appreciate his awareness of and insistence on respecting team tradition and history every place he was head coach.

I never blamed Fairbanks for how he left and I didn't blame Parcells either. He is what he is, take it or leave it. Orthwein hiring him is the turning point that laid the foundation for our success thereafter. It gave us instant credibility - the kind we would not have had even if Flutie stayed and won a couple Super Bowls for us. This is what the mediots base their stupid nominations of him for the team HOF on. I mean I'm grateful Ron Meyer brought Scar here with him in '83...but the guy doesn't belong in our HOF.

As far as that Super Bowl, it was painful in several respects. First, Kraft had (and still has) us in those stupid uniforms with that ugly insulting flying elvis. We look ridiculous. Second, seeing McMahon there back in the Superdome winning another ring at our expense sucked big time - twisted the knife.

But the Packers were nationally televised a lot in '96, and I saw they were loaded and well coached.

Activating Troy Brown might have helped. Getting the message across to Adam that if he kicked off even once to Howard he'd spend eternity in the fiery gates of hell would also have helped.

But the late Ray Perkins was our OC the entire time under Parcells and with Bledsoe since he was drafted. Drew throwing the ball won us games, yes. But dropping Drew back repeatedly, over and over, endlessly that day (48 times) to be sacked (5) and picked (4) worse than Tony Eason was wrong and that's what lost us the game. The Packers would not have stopped Curtis Martin if he'd had 25-30 carries - instead of only eleven.

So I'm happy for Bill's contribution to the Patriots and I appreciate his, well, greatness. But he does not belong in our hall of fame.