Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Tompa12]

Tom Brady WAS the system.

And to think he almost got the offensive genius McDaniels a HC job, multiple times.

Should have left when he had the chance before now getting exposed as nothing without Brady for now the THIRD time (STL, DEN).

 

[Rob0729]

You are the one recreating history right here. Who cares if the defense was good for 3/4's of the game. They were complete ass in that last 1/4th and it required Brady saving their bacon by winning a shoot out.

Psst! I was talking about how Kontradition said the defense played fell apart in the second half. They didn't. They fell apart in the last five minutes of the fourth quarter when they lost their starting safeties. The defense played well for most of the game. That was my point.

 

[Kdo5]

Bill and Pioli turned a trash 2002 defense into an incredible defense in one offseason.

Hope Bill can work some magic and make history can repeat itself.

All it took was some good drafting and a few solid veteran signings. Rodney, Ty Poole & Ted Washington were the guys they brought in that year. And the drafting of Warren, Eugene Wilson & Asante helped bolster it further.

We have a good foundation in the secondary even if we lose Gilmore next season. We have all the cap space in the world. Make a splash on a defensive player, bring a handful of solid vets in and hit on one or two draft picks. Our defense has holes and question marks on players such as Hightower but with a few right moves in the offseason we could be a top defense again.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady was a top QB in 2003, but not a superstar.

People forget how special that defense was in 2003 and how many game the Pats won like 12-0 or 9-3 that year. That year the Pats scored under 20 points seven times in the regular season and one more time in the playoffs. They went 14-2 on the defense that year.

Brady had 5 game-winning drives in 2003...tied for most in a single season for him. He was nails as usual with the Super Bowl on the line too. He had the team with a 4th quarter lead in all 9 Super Bowls. The defense gagged against the exceptionally mediocre Eli Manning twice and Belichick himself gave away the other.

 

[Rob0729]

Drew Bennett catches that pass and there’s a really good chance that season is cut way shorter than we hoped.

That's true. There are plenty of individual moments that could have changed any one of the Patriots' Super Bowl seasons.

Someone brought up the Snow Bowl game and how well Brady played at the end. But he was also lucky. He fumbled that ball. Yes, because of a quirk in the rules, he didn't technically fumble the ball and the Pats kept the ball. But in reality he didn't protect the ball when he was hit and he even admits that he wasn't really in the process of throwing it. It was really a matter of inches that he would have gone from hero of the game to the reason the Pats lost.

Again, I am not trying to crap on Brady. But I am just talking about the reality of the situation.

 

[crawhammer]

He had a horrible habit throwing mind numbing INT’s that brought teams back in the game.

Right, that will be the lead of Brady's bio... mind-numbing INT's. Like WTF are you talking about?

 

[Rob0729]

Brady had 5 game-winning drives in 2003...tied for most in a single season for him. He was nails as usual with the Super Bowl on the line too. He had the team with a 4th quarter lead in all 9 Super Bowls. The defense gagged against the exceptionally mediocre Eli Manning twice and Belichick himself gave away the other.

If we are going to talk about gagging against Eli, you gotta point the finger at Brady too. His safety for intentional grounding played a big role in the second loss.

In 2003, the Pats shut out three teams (in two of those games, the Pats scored 12 points each game on offense). They held two other teams to under six points (one of them, the Pats scored nine points). They held two other teams to 13 points. That is nearly half the season right there. And don't forget against Tennessee in the regular season, it was Ty Law's pick six sealed that game (38-30).

In the AFC Championship game, they intercepted Peyton Manning four times, got a safety, and another turnover while the offense scored one TD and five FG with the good field position from the defense. Let's give the Pats' defense credit where credit is due. They were the biggest reason by far why the Pats went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl.

 

[carmelo15]

Is this a joke? Making this conclusion based on one season of separation with covid, Patriots dealing with a large amount of opt outs, and TB going to a fairly loaded roster (and looking as pathetic as last year at times). Absurd on every level.

You just said covid season as an excuse for BB but brady going to a brand new team no haha comical. **** would look even worse if he had a normal year to prepare let alone not being 43 and have had left 6-8 years ago

 

[crawhammer]

That offense is loaded. He has been thoroughly unimpressive (if we are ignoring his age) and would have looked mediocre in the pats current offense, which BB deserves criticism for.

Thoroughly unimpressive? Have you been watching football in December?

With all of his WR's finally healthy, AB settled into the offense, and Gronk finding his groove again, Brady is playing at an elite level. And no, you can't just toss his age aside because it's all the more impressive what he's doing because of his age.

 

[crawhammer]

If we are going to talk about gagging against Eli, you gotta point the finger at Brady too. His safety for intentional grounding played a big role in the second loss.

In 2003, the Pats shut out three teams (in two of those games, the Pats scored 12 points each game on offense). They held two other teams to under six points (one of them, the Pats scored nine points). They held two other teams to 13 points. That is nearly half the season right there. In the AFC Championship game, they intercepted Peyton Manning four times, got a safety, and another turnover while the offense scored one TD and five FG with the good field position from the defense. Let's give the Pats' defense credit where credit is due. They were the biggest reason by far why the Pats went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl.

I get it. The defense was really good in 2003. Guess what... Brady still led 5 game-winning drives that season. He still was named the Super Bowl MVP.

And yes, the safety was a bad start against the NYG but Brady put the team in position to win the game. The defense gagged.

 

[carmelo15]

Tom Brady WAS the system.

Parriot way ain’t gonna cut it guys ain’t coming here for that dumb **** they came here to play with Tom ****ing brady. No the dude in a hoodie benching players during the super bowl and guys for making feet jokes before a playoff game. How stupid is that big deal he mad a foot joke. Just looked at AB how he is with Brady people came for him now if talent comes here we’re gonna have to overpay like everyone else

 

[TheRainMaker]

Right, that will be the lead of Brady's bio... mind-numbing INT's. Like WTF are you talking about?

What am I taking about?

I thought the example I just gave was pretty clear.

 

[carmelo15]

Thoroughly unimpressive? Have you been watching football in December?

With all of his WR's finally healthy, AB settled into the offense, and Gronk finding his groove again, Brady is playing at an elite level. And no, you can't just toss his age aside because it's all the more impressive what he's doing because of his age.

Dudes 43 playing quarterback at an elite level in a new system absolute absurd

 

[mikey m]

Thoroughly unimpressive? Have you been watching football in December?

With all of his WR's finally healthy, AB settled into the offense, and Gronk finding his groove again, Brady is playing at an elite level. And no, you can't just toss his age aside because it's all the more impressive what he's doing because of his age.

So he's producing with generational talents?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Someone brought up the Snow Bowl game and how well Brady played at the end.

Raiders easily beat them had there not been a snow storm.

BB struggles against West Coast style teams and TB was not ready for shootouts.

Raiders showed them what would’ve happened in 2002.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I get it. The defense was really good in 2003. Guess what... Brady still led 5 game-winning drives that season. He still was named the Super Bowl MVP.

And yes, the safety was a bad start against the NYG but Brady put the team in position to win the game. The defense gagged.

2003 MVP Voting

 

[JPsPats]

Parriot way ain’t gonna cut it guys ain’t coming here for that dumb **** they came here to play with Tom ****ing brady. No the dude in a hoodie benching players during the super bowl and guys for making feet jokes before a playoff game. How stupid is that big deal he mad a foot joke. Just looked at AB how he is with Brady people came for him now if talent comes here we’re gonna have to overpay like everyone else

Tons of former players have mentioned playing in New England was hard but worth it, because they were winning super bowls or going on deep playoffs runs, with TB12 throwing the football.

I can’t think of a reason any player would want to come here and embrace the patriot way while losing, unless they get overpaid or no other team wants them.

 

[XLIX]

That's true. There are plenty of individual moments that could have changed any one of the Patriots' Super Bowl seasons.

Someone brought up the Snow Bowl game and how well Brady played at the end. But he was also lucky. He fumbled that ball. Yes, because of a quirk in the rules, he didn't technically fumble the ball and the Pats kept the ball. But in reality he didn't protect the ball when he was hit and he even admits that he wasn't really in the process of throwing it. It was really a matter of inches that he would have gone from hero of the game to the reason the Pats lost.

Again, I am not trying to crap on Brady. But I am just talking about the reality of the situation.

No, you are not talking about the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is he led the team to a game tying FG, then a game winning FG. All your coulda shoulda woulda, look what *almost* happened is just make believe.

 

[captain stone]

Like there was ever any doubt.

The "system"

the "culture"

the "Patriot Way'

Is the current QB of the TB Bucs.

The First Dynasty belonged to Everybody: Brady, the OL, the Smurfs, the TEs, the Defense at All levels, the coaches, the scouts, the FO execs...

The Second Dynasty? Not so egalitarian with the distributiion of contributions, especially from the non-playing folks, and from those draftees from 2013 & beyond...

 

[wizwor]

With Brady leading his new team into the postseason, his old team is floundering pathetically and will miss the postseason for only the second time in the past 18 seasons. The two seasons missing the postseason, 2008 and 2020, no Brady.

The main reason the Patriots will not make the postseason this year is the significant dropoff at the quarterback position. Like all of the greatest of all time, Brady makes everyone around him better, in fact much better, including Belichick.

Belichick without Brady:
8 Seasons
61-71 record
0 division titles
1 playoff win

Belichick with Brady:
18 seasons
219-63 record
17 division titles
12 Conference Championship appearances
9 Super Bowl appearances
6 Super Bowl titles

Belichick, often referred to as a genius, in reality is just another guy, an ordinary coach who looks great when coupled with a legendary talent. The numbers, the facts, bear it out. And it's not even close. More important to the Patriots dynasty? Brady by a wide margin.

Brady never takes a snap in a pro game if not for Coach. 'nuff said.