Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[mikey m]

Sb36 he did. Sb 38 in 2003 he threw for 354.

Ty, misread that

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Its hard to believe but it is now clear that Brady did not get nearly enough credit for the success of this franchise.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Absolutely tragic Brady isn’t retiring a Patriot.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

So he tried to get embarrassed on MNF? He punted down by 29 in the 4th because the offense is a trainwreck and pathetically the f'ing punter is their best player.

What I want to know is how this team put the biggest piles of dogsh!t at WR together in such a short time,just years ago the team was full of talent there,how does a team go from a high scoring offense to a complete laughable joke like the 1990 squad in just a few years?...time for Kraft to unload some money into the position - this WR corps was just pathetic and the worst i've seen in decades

Patriots don't go 11-5 with Bledsoe. Patriots don't win the Raiders game without Brady's late game performance (plus tuck rule). Patriots don't win that Super Bowl without Brady. Pats also don't win SB 38 without Brady having a lights out performance when the defense was running on fumes and getting shredded, plus he led us to the game winning FG.

Those first two Super Bowls are not won without Brady. They are probably not winning seasons without him either.

They missed the playoffs in 2008 with 80% of the roster remaining from the 18-1 team - if that didn't show how much more important Brady was to the team then the coaching staff then nothing will

 

[sb1]

Absolutely tragic Brady isn’t retiring a Patriot.

He will. It’s a guarantee he’ll get the one day contract if needed.

 

[JPsPats]

This season was a demonstration of how the best coach will not win many games with a crap QB.

But an all time great QB can make up for a sub par coach.

The “system QB” argument is dead and buried.

Tom Brady WAS the system.

 

[TheRainMaker]

He will. It’s a guarantee he’ll get the one day contract if needed.

I meant he should’ve never left.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Absolutely tragic Brady isn’t retiring a Patriot.

I think if Belichick retires before Brady does Tom might come back for 1 day and retire as a Patriot

 

[Rob0729]

They don’t win the Super Bowl against the Panthers without him. The defense folded like a cheap tent in the second half.

The Pats didn't give up a point in the third quarter of that game. It wasn't until Harrison and Wilson went out with injuries that the defense fell apart. The defense played pretty awesome for most of three and half quarters. It was the end of the first half (aided by one of the worst kick offs ever by Vinatieri) and the the last five minutes of the game where the Panthers scored on offense.

Brady was awesome in the fourth quarter of that game, but let's not recreate history.

 

[sb1]

The Pats didn't give up a point in the third quarter of that game. It wasn't until Harrison and Wilson went out with injuries that the defense fell apart. The defense played pretty awesome for most of three and half quarters. It was the end of the first half (aided by one of the worst kick offs ever by Vinatieri) and the the last five minutes of the game where the Panthers scored on offense.

Brady was awesome in the fourth quarter of that game, but let's not recreate history.

Wasn’t that Wilson who got torched by Muhammad?

 

[Kdo5]

The Pats didn't give up a point in the third quarter of that game. It wasn't until Harrison and Wilson went out with injuries that the defense fell apart. The defense played pretty awesome for most of three and half quarters. It was the end of the first half (aided by one of the worst kick offs ever by Vinatieri) and the the last five minutes of the game where the Panthers scored on offense.

Brady was awesome in the fourth quarter of that game, but let's not recreate history.

You are the one recreating history right here. Who cares if the defense was good for 3/4's of the game. They were complete ass in that last 1/4th and it required Brady saving their bacon by winning a shoot out.

 

[Rob0729]

From the beginning he was clutch and had his moments (similar to Russel Wilson in 2013/14) and by the Super Bowl in 2003 he was a superstar.

Brady was a top QB in 2003, but not a superstar.

People forget how special that defense was in 2003 and how many game the Pats won like 12-0 or 9-3 that year. That year the Pats scored under 20 points seven times in the regular season and one more time in the playoffs. They went 14-2 on the defense that year.

 

[Kdo5]

Wasn’t that Wilson who got torched by Muhammad?

You're thinking Tyrone Poole. Or maybe I'm thinking about one of Delhomme's other TDs.

 

[Rob0729]

Wasn’t that Wilson who got torched by Muhammad?

When Harrison went down, the defense started to fall apart. When Wilson went down, the defense was toast.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The Pats didn't give up a point in the third quarter of that game. It wasn't until Harrison and Wilson went out with injuries that the defense fell apart. The defense played pretty awesome for most of three and half quarters. It was the end of the first half (aided by one of the worst kick offs ever by Vinatieri) and the the last five minutes of the game where the Panthers scored on offense.

Brady was awesome in the fourth quarter of that game, but let's not recreate history.

Brady also had a hard time stepping on his opponents throats early in his career and lingered on throughout his time in NE.

He had a horrible habit throwing mind numbing INT’s that brought teams back in the game.

Pats where up 21-10 and where within the 10 yard line or so before Brady throws a dumb pick to the Panthers. Panthers looked defeated/overmatched, but that INT gave them life. The shootout began and Brady made up for it.

 

[Kdo5]

Brady also had a hard time stepping on his opponents throats early in his career and lingered on throughout his time in NE.

He had a horrible habit throwing mind numbing INT’s that brought teams back in the game.

Pats where up 21-10 and where within the 10 yard line or so before Brady throws a dumb pick to the Panthers. Panthers looked defeated/overmatched, but that INT gave them life. The shootout began and Brady made up for it.

I think it's really to Brady's credit when he makes up for those mistakes by pulling out his most clutch performances. Most other QBs let it drag them down. That Panthers INT, the red zone INT against the Hawks and the pick six against the Falcons. All examples of this.

No QB will ever be perfect. Even the greatest make the occasional bad decision or turnover. It's how they respond...

 

[crawhammer]

Perhaps discontinuity has hampered TB. Perhaps its his age and ability. Perhaps BB was hampered by discontinuity and opt outs, perhaps he's not an amazing coach apart from TB. Whatever these answers are, takes more than one f***** up season to tell and this thread is ridiculous.

Of course it's ridiculous to you because Brady is running away with the Dynasty cred while Belichick is turning back the clock to 1991.

And yes, the evaluation starts year one of their separation. News flash, Brady is 43, he's going to retire soon, so we're only going to have a couple of seasons for comparisons.

Fact: Brady is validating his legacy while Belichick doing just the opposite. Make all the excuses you want for Belichick... COVID, etc... every team, head coach and player is dealing with difficult and unusual circumstances. Brady has met those challenges head on and now he has his team peaking at exactly the right time.

Belichick is making a complete fool of himself. On and off the field. His team quit on him tonight. His quarterback is a joke... I'm actually feeling badly for Newton at this point, the guy is getting humiliated, Belichick needs to do him a solid and just bench him. If I'm not mistaken Bill (mumbled of course) something about "Cam not being the problem" in the post-game press conference. On what planet is Cam not a problem? And this is a supposed genius making such a preposterous claim.

 

[sb1]

Brady was a top QB in 2003, but not a superstar.

People forget how special that defense was in 2003 and how many game the Pats won like 12-0 or 9-3 that year. That year the Pats scored under 20 points seven times in the regular season and one more time in the playoffs. They went 14-2 on the defense that year.

Bill and Pioli turned a trash 2002 defense into an incredible defense in one offseason.

Hope Bill can work some magic and make history can repeat itself.

 

[Rob0729]

Patriots don't go 11-5 with Bledsoe. Patriots don't win the Raiders game without Brady's late game performance (plus tuck rule). Patriots don't win that Super Bowl without Brady. Pats also don't win SB 38 without Brady having a lights out performance when the defense was running on fumes and getting shredded, plus he led us to the game winning FG.

Those first two Super Bowls are not won without Brady. They are probably not winning seasons without him either.

The Pats weren't winning anything with Bledsoe because Bledsoe didn't fit the Patriots offense.

But yes, you can point to individual points where Brady made the difference. I am talking about the entire season as a whole. They could have gotten to the Super Bowl and won with other QBs in 2001. They wouldn't have gotten to the Super Bowl in 2003 without the defense being historically good. In fact, they may not have had a winning record since the Pats won so many games where the offense couldn't score even 20 points. In fact they won like three or four games without the offense scoring a single TD.

I am not trying to take away from Brady. I really am not. But he wasn't the player he became in his first several years as a starter. The defense was just far more important to the teams' success in the 2001 and 2003 season. Hell, the league changed the rules on defensive coverage because of the way the Pats absolutely mugged the Colts' WRs and embarrassed Manning in the playoffs of the 2003/2004 season where he threw four interceptions.

 

[sb1]

The Pats weren't winning anything with Bledsoe because Bledsoe didn't fit the Patriots offense.

But yes, you can point to individual points where Brady made the difference. I am talking about the entire season as a whole. They could have gotten to the Super Bowl and won with other QBs in 2001. They wouldn't have gotten to the Super Bowl in 2003 without the defense being historically good. In fact, they may not have had a winning record since the Pats won so many games where the offense couldn't score even 20 points. In fact they won like three or four games without the offense scoring a single TD.

I am not trying to take away from Brady. I really am not. But he wasn't the player he became in his first several years as a starter. The defense was just far more important to the teams' success in the 2001 and 2003 season. Hell, the league changed the rules on defensive coverage because of the way the Pats absolutely mugged the Colts' WRs and embarrassed Manning in the playoffs.

Drew Bennett catches that pass and there’s a really good chance that season is cut way shorter than we hoped.