Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Doctor DDS]

No, no joke. I actually watched that 2001 season and remember it fondly. Brady had multiple 4 interception games that year. He was asked to make safe easy throws 95% of the time. That offense did not score a ton of points but they were methodical about getting the D rest and not going 3 and out. I would argue Smith was more important to THAT team as being consistent was more important then being flashy. He got 20-25 carries a game and yeah got 80 yards and sometimes a TD but he was the workhorse the D needed to keep games close.

let’s revisit that post season. 16-13 Raiders, One offensive TD the whole game Brady sneaking it in. 24-17 Pittsburg, Two special team TDs and Bledsoe’s lone contribution to the SB season. 20-17 Rams, Laws pick six and again One TD from the offense. **** cam’s offense has better numbers then that. It’s revisionist history to say Brady was good that year. He wasn’t. What he was, was incredibly clutch and not prone to making mistakes. The defense and special teams absolutely carried him and he let them which is why Brass Balls Bill stuck with him.

Brady had one 4 interception game in 2001 and a few 2 interception games. Finished the year with 18 TDs and 12 Ints. He was far from a star but he was already clutch as evidenced by 2 game winning drives in playoffs.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Brady had one 4 interception game in 2001 and a few 2 interception games. Finished the year with 18 TDs and 12 Ints. He was far from a star but he was already clutch as evidenced by 2 game winning drives in playoffs.

4 ints 2nd start in Miami of course. Miami was his Daddy his whole career lol. He wasnt a stat guy early on but was as clutch as it gets in crunch time

 

[carmelo15]

Brady was much more important than Belichick. The way I’ve always viewed it, coaches coach, players play.

You can have the best coaches, but if you don’t have the players to execute it doesn’t matter who is coaching.

Now when you match great coaching with great players, that’s when dynasties are formed.

Patriots: Brady & BB, Spurs: Pop & Duncan, Golden State: Kerr & Durant/Curry, Lakers: Jackson & Kobe/Shaq, Bulls: Jackson & MJ

Let’s not put Kerr in a great coach category and Pop ain’t sniffing another playoff without Timmy. Phil Jackson refused to coach without top 5 players so we don’t know how he’d fare either

 

[Pats2000]

Another Brady vs Belichick thread? This has been discussed ad nauseam in the Gronkaneer thread...

Belichick is struggling without an elite QB...what a news flash.

Tom would be struggling in Tampa without elite playmakers....another newsflash.

One could make the argument TB isn't living up to expectations with the weapons he does have.

 

[amfootball]

Quick question just to see how well you remember 2001. Who was more important that year Tom Brady or Antwain Smith?

Is this question serious?

 

[GreenCow]

the debate is over? lol. No. Its just getting started.

The problem is two fold. You are comparing apples and oranges, one guy is a player, the other a coach g/m. It is far far easier for Brady to prove his mettle by walking onto a team that has been primed for success with a surfeit of talent. Belichick has the much harder task of replacing the greatest quarter back the league has ever seen. Brady started the "argument" sitting in the pole position, while Belichicks starting position was at the back of the field.

One other thing I detest is the flouting of Belichicks record. Like Cleveland has anything to do with BB as a modern day head coach. He was in Cleveland during the 1990's. When he started there was no cap and no real free agency - ever heard of plan B? It was 1994 that both the salary cap and true free agency were adopted by the league. So from 1991 to 1993 BB was working under antiquated rules that severely limited roster building. After his one good season there, the team was sabotaged by Art Modell so he could move the team... Your oh so deep and exhaustive "analysis" omits any type of historical context, and also conveniently leaves out that those years in cleveland were his first go round in the NFL as a head coach.

I look at what he did in the first year of New England, 5-11. no good. But consider this - he was in the process of putting his pieces in play. As much as I love Bledsoe, he wasn't very good. He was not consistent and was prone to throwing interceptions at the worst time possible. But over that period, he built a team. Not just Brady and a bunch of guys. A team. A team that won. Think we beat the falcons if the defense didn't show up in the second half? Not a chance.

If you really feel the need to rip apart all the success we've had over the past 20 years, you need to let the process BB has installed here take hold and see what he builds. Otherwise you are just another "look at me and my hot take" *******...

Personally, it is my opinion that Belichick abd Brady are both responsible for the success of the Patriots. There are timeless coach/qb combinations in the league - Walsh/Montana. Noll/Bradshaw, Landry/Staubach, Lombardi/Starr and we will soon add Reid/Mahomes - Belichick/Brady stands out as the very best of them. The perfect storm of driven coach and driven player...

I think its real a sad sack **** show that "patriot fans" feel the need to tear apart what we had over the past 20 years.

The reason the current team is devoid of talent falls on the GM.

Who is the GM again?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The reason the current team is devoid of talent falls on the GM.

Who is the GM again?

We're talking about Belichick the coach. Everyone knows Belichick the GM doesn't help Belichick the coach.

 

[Pape]

The reason the current team is devoid of talent falls on the GM.

Who is the GM again?

its the bills fan come back to haunt us... wonderful

there are gaps in the talent, sure.

But this year was different than most, wasn't it? Roberts, Van Noy, Shelton, Collins all starters on defense, all poached by former Patriot assistant coaches... then you have two more defensive starters Hightower and Chung opt out ...

and lets not forget trying to replace the GOAT... this team started 2020 in a bad way...

so yeah, the GM could have done a better job planning ahead... a direct result of that lack of foresight is the mediocre team we now have playing in Foxboro... doesn't mean its a **** show from here on out, does it?

I happen to think that's not going to be the case next year. The rookies (minus the tight ends) have played pretty well all things considered... they had a baptism by fire... the line has mostly solidified, the run game looks like it has a future... there are at least two half way decent receivers now playing... team has cap space to work with, has decent draft picks... there should be some talent available on the free agent market considering the looming capmagedeon...

That's why the whole is it Brady or is it Belichick argument is premature at this point... Its a lot harder to rebuild an entire team than it is to step onto a ready made team and find success... BB craps the bed again next season? then you got the start of an argument... but if he builds a team that is competitive? what then?

 

[JMC00]

The reason the current team is devoid of talent falls on the GM.

Who is the GM again?

You mean the GM that had built a core team that went to 4 SBs in 5 years and won 3 of them? and was a FG away from going to 5 straight SBs? What other GMs have done that?


The bill was always gonna come due on a run like that and it was exacerbated by Brady and Gisele not wanting to be "Mr. and Mrs. Johnny Foxboro" anymore

 

[pazrul72]

Is this question serious?

Completely. Your version of who and what Brady means to this franchise makes me question if you watched 2001 or just the highlights. I love Brady, wouldn’t want any other QB starting for my team, but to act like he came out as a win every game cuz of him star right off the bat is insane. My point is just for that year I would say Antwain Smith had more to do with making the playoffs then Tom Brady, and Belichick would have turned it around with any average plus QB cuz the TEAM he built was well coached, and believed in what he was selling. Now would they have won the Super Bowl with just any QB, no probably not, TB12 is probably the most clutch QB of all time and they needed that. It just bothers me the stats you are throwing around about Bill without Tom seem to completely discount how much Brady benefited from the well rounded, disciplined, deep teams that BB built even from his first year here.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

why is this bills fan only here when the team is playing well but vanishes when they aren't?

 

[crawhammer]

Quick question just to see how well you remember 2001. Who was more important that year Tom Brady or Antwain Smith?

Is this a serious question? In what backward universe would Antwain Smith have been more important than Brady?

Quick question just to see how well you remember 2001. Had Bledsoe not gotten injured, and remained the starter, with Smith at RB, would the Patriots have gone on to win the Super Bowl?

 

[pazrul72]

Is this a serious question? In what backward universe would Antwain Smith have been more important than Brady?

Quick question just to see how well you remember 2001. Had Bledsoe not gotten injured, and remained the starter, with Smith at RB, would the Patriots have gone on to win the Super Bowl?

yes it’s a serious question and not backwards at all. Smith was very solid in 2001 and won a lot of TOP battles. Which as a run first play good defense and win field position team was absolutely vital.

No. Huge Bledsoe fan as he is the first star I was aware of and got me interested in the sport but no. Too much of a gun slinger who relied more on his arm then his brain and thought he could fit it in anywhere. Brady didn’t make wow plays that Bledsoe could make but he also didn’t make the ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME?!? plays either.

 

[jmt57]

I haven't waded into this thread since page one, and have no intention of reading the previous 15 pages of comments.

That being said, here are two messages for both sides of this useless and futile gesture:

 

[GreenCow]

You mean the GM that got lucky and drafted Tom Brady after passing on him 5 times, which led to said player dragging the GM to 4 SBs in 5 years and won 3 of them? and was a FG away from going to 5 straight SBs? What other QB’s done that?

Fixed it for you.

 

[Pape]

Ignore... Refresh... No more troll


Refreshing how that works

 

[Tony2046]

I could have sworn it was BB that drafted Brady, helped develop him and created the game plans to maximize his strengths. He gets credit for Brady's success so I really do not understand how we could bifurcate importance. Brady did not come into the league like Jordan or LeBron and was going to be a superstar no matter what. BB is certainly not magical and just like every coach in every sport he needs great players to be successful. If Andy Reid retires at end of year I doubt we'd anoint his replacement as a top coach just because he'd likely win 11+ games with the talent on that roster nor kill Harbaugh if he takes over the Jets and wins 5 games. Context matters. BB took over a bad Browns team and was moving them in the right direction before Modell happened. I do not dismiss his record there but also do not use it as a hammer any more than I would label Bill Parcells as average for going 32-32 in his 4 years with the Patriots.

I love Brady and he is the GOAT but without BB acquiring the right talent for the right price and developing brilliant game plans this run would have been much less. They both needed each other for this run to happen.

This is one of my favorite Patsfan posts ever. Thanks.

 

[Tony2046]

No, no joke. I actually watched that 2001 season and remember it fondly. Brady had multiple 4 interception games that year. He was asked to make safe easy throws 95% of the time. That offense did not score a ton of points but they were methodical about getting the D rest and not going 3 and out. I would argue Smith was more important to THAT team as being consistent was more important then being flashy. He got 20-25 carries a game and yeah got 80 yards and sometimes a TD but he was the workhorse the D needed to keep games close.

let’s revisit that post season. 16-13 Raiders, One offensive TD the whole game Brady sneaking it in. 24-17 Pittsburg, Two special team TDs and Bledsoe’s lone contribution to the SB season. 20-17 Rams, Laws pick six and again One TD from the offense. **** cam’s offense has better numbers then that. It’s revisionist history to say Brady was good that year. He wasn’t. What he was, was incredibly clutch and not prone to making mistakes. The defense and special teams absolutely carried him and he let them which is why Brass Balls Bill stuck with him.

He had one 4 interception game and 12 on that season.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady's cumulative stats in the 4th Quarter and Overtime of Super Bowls 49, 51, 52 & 53 (essentially a full game):

47-63 (75%)
538 Yards
4 TD's
0 INT's
121.0 QBR

Brady's greatest asset of many is his capacity to come through in the clutch. He led game-winning drives in all 6 of their Super Bowl titles. He led would-be game-winning drives in the other 3 games but the defenses squandered the leads. Belichick totally submarined SB 52 with the inexplicable benching of Butler. Brady is the only quarterback in the history of the league that could have pulled off the comeback wins of SB 49 and 51. Remember too, he pulled off that miracle against Atlanta with no Gronk. And eclipsed 500 yards in SB 52 without Edelman and Cooks departing early with an injury.

SB 53 was mostly a dud. However, the Patriots drive that mattered the most, they drove down the field through the air until Sony fell through a canyon at the goal line. Goff was a total mess in this game and his receivers didn't help him out either.

The more memorable victory of the 2018 postseason came in the AFC Championship Game at KC. That may have been their most improbable postseason victory. Brady was nails on the game-winning drive with the three 3rd-and-10 completions. In total they converted 13 of 19 third-down plays in the game.

The accolades and signature moments are endless for Brady. And it's factual, the team dropped like a stone the very first season he departed; it's on Belichick to make up for the dearth of talent or his legacy will certainly take a hit... not on this Forum but in reality. Frankly if Brady underperforms now, he has an out, he's still trying to remain elite at friggin 43 (and thus far mostly succeeding). Belichick, no excuses. And there's a conga line of detractors ready to dance allover his grave.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Completely. Your version of who and what Brady means to this franchise makes me question if you watched 2001 or just the highlights. I love Brady, wouldn’t want any other QB starting for my team, but to act like he came out as a win every game cuz of him star right off the bat is insane. My point is just for that year I would say Antwain Smith had more to do with making the playoffs then Tom Brady, and Belichick would have turned it around with any average plus QB cuz the TEAM he built was well coached, and believed in what he was selling. Now would they have won the Super Bowl with just any QB, no probably not, TB12 is probably the most clutch QB of all time and they needed that. It just bothers me the stats you are throwing around about Bill without Tom seem to completely discount how much Brady benefited from the well rounded, disciplined, deep teams that BB built even from his first year here.

That 2001 squad showed how important it is to be good in all 3 phases. Brady had the clutch gene but he was learning the game at this point, not the elite qb we’ve come to know. For what he lacked in experience to Bledsoe he made up for with better pocket awareness, accuracy and protecting the football. When the margin of error in this league is small having a qb with these types of qualities makes a huge difference.
When you have an offense that doesn’t beat themselves, a solid opportunistic defense and a really good special teams they proved you can go all the way. Look at the playoffs: Brady/Adam V coming up clutch after the tuck rule call; special teams scoring 2 tds and a defense forcing multiple INTs against Pitt minus Brady and then in the super bowl with the defense shutting down the greatest show on turf for 3 quarters and then Brady leading us on that final drive.