Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[amfootball]

Fans typically gravitate to the players more than to coaches.

Especially now when Tom is gone and BB is here.

Also we have such a dramatic juxtaposition on top. The Pats are having a losing season while Brady is 9-5 and on the verge of the playoffs. Makes everyone that much more salty.

 

[DaBruinz]

To your point, the Pats were 5-13 until Brady and then 14-3 and SB champs. Last year they were 12-4 and the 3rd seed to no playoffs and either 7-9 or 6-10 this year. Those are dramatic swings.

Your view is so overly simplistic. You're completely ignoring the MASSIVE roster change-overs that occured between 2000 and 2001 and the turnover from 2019 to 2020. When you ignore CONTEXT, your statements become worthless.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Also we have such a dramatic juxtaposition on top. The Pats are having a losing season while Brady is 9-5 and on the verge of the playoffs. Makes everyone that much more salty.

Yep.

What Tom has proven is if he has the talent to throw to, he will still put up the numbers.

What 2020 has proven is Tom is not here.

What has not been proven is the team would have a better record with Tom here. If fans want to say otherwise they can be my guest.

 

[amfootball]

Your view is so overly simplistic. You're completely ignoring the MASSIVE roster change-overs that occured between 2000 and 2001 and the turnover from 2019 to 2020. When you ignore CONTEXT, your statements become worthless.

The biggest switches was Brady coming in at QB in 2001 when we were 0-2 and going nowhere and then this year it is an improved team with the Oline and run game being much better than last year but Brady left and we are 6-8.

Also you may want to familiarize yourself with Occam's Razor - the simplest and most obvious answer is almost always the correct one.

 

[amfootball]

Yep.

What Tom has proven is if he has the talent to throw to, he will still put up the numbers.

What 2020 has proven is Tom is not here.

What has not been proven is the team would have a better record with Tom here. If fans want to say otherwise they can be my guest.

I don't think there is any doubt we would have been better than 6-8 with the improved Oline and run game. The question is do we really compete for the SB or have a first round exit? Probably the latter but I would have taken that to this awful season with the putrid QB play. I really wanted us to tie the Cowboys for the most winning seasons at 20.

 

[lancerman]

Based on your logic, Bill Walsh was nothing without Montana because he was 8-24 before Montana was named the starter in SF. Do you want to go there?

How many titles did the Niner’s win with Walsh? 3. How many did they win when he retired 2? Did they remain competitive yes?

Walsh and Belichick can be great legendary coaches and also go nowhere if they don’t have talent. Players play and players win games, coaches get players in position to win games. You can’t win without players

 

[ashley]

All I'll say and most of you know I hate this debate....When the Bucs got blown out by the Saints, all the Tom trolls came out...now, the Pats are out of the playoffs and all the Bill Trolls are coming out...to me they are both better together and it's not even an issue..If we want to keep this thread open, I'll keep it open, but to me this argument is very silly....My dad told me once that without good players no coach could win, and without good coaching a talented team will underachieve. I think we're seeing it both here...Tom is the GOAT as is Bill and I think they need each other to get that 7th trophy....just my 2 cents....

 

[ashley]

How many titles did the Niner’s win with Walsh? 3. How many did they win when he retired 2? Did they remain competitive yes?

Walsh and Belichick can be great legendary coaches and also go nowhere if they don’t have talent. Players play and players win games, coaches get players in position to win games. You can’t win without players

You sound like my dad lol.....good post though.

 

[XLIX]

No. An injury is a distraction. A controversy like Deflategate is a distraction. Having the franchise terminated is not a "distraction". It's an execution date.

You're not seriously questioning Bill's ability to focus past distractions are you? How did the Deflategate Super Bowl turn out?

Newsflash: Brady was on the team that year. The whole matter at hand is how well Belichick coaches without Tom Brady.

After almost 9 years, the results are not so good.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

How many titles did the Niner’s win with Walsh? 3. How many did they win when he retired 2? Did they remain competitive yes?

Walsh and Belichick can be great legendary coaches and also go nowhere if they don’t have talent. Players play and players win games, coaches get players in position to win games. You can’t win without players

Which proves what I'm saying even more...the fact that the Niners won twice without Walsh supports the notion that Walsh was not that good of a coach, does it not? However, we all know this is not true...the fact remains Walsh was 8-24 before Montana got there. Without Brady, Belichick's winning percentage is mediocre as well too. So again, are you prepared to say Walsh was carried to 3 super bowls by Montana? Go on...

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Newsflash: Brady was on the team that year. The whole matter at hand is how well Belichick coaches without Tom Brady.

After almost 9 years, the results are not so good.

Newsflash - you're missing his point and that is Belichick is fine at handling distractions.

 

[sb1]

Newsflash: Brady was on the team that year. The whole matter at hand is how well Belichick coaches without Tom Brady.

To answer my own question, they won thanks in part to Bill's ability to keep the team focused and block out the noise. So the "focus on distractions" argument has been proven, and Bill's W-L record in his last season when the Browns franchise was terminated in Cleveland means zip. It isn't an informed opinion to use that circumstance against him or any coach. I doubt Lombardi or Shula does any better there in those circumstances.

After almost 9 years, the results are not so good.

Are they? I don't know. The results aren't so great in the standings...but with this roster and a lesser coach I think there's a good chance they don't win a single game. So it is a good result if you compare it to the alternative.

Of course I'm talking about Bill the coach, not Bill the GM. I agree the latter hasn't helped the former.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't think there is any doubt we would have been better than 6-8 with the improved Oline and run game. The question is do we really compete for the SB or have a first round exit? Probably the latter but I would have taken that to this awful season with the putrid QB play. I really wanted us to tie the Cowboys for the most winning seasons at 20.

2019 Running Game- 28 carries/game 106.4 yards/game , 3.8 yards/carry
2020 Running Game w/o Newton- 23 carries/game, 110.4yards.game, 4.7yards/carry

The running game would most likely be better even without Cam running the RPO but with JE11 on IR Tom would have no one to throw to.

Keep in mind the D is allowing a touchdown more a game than last year.

I see at best a borderline playoff team. Maybe.

 

[Boomer B]

Based on your logic, Bill Walsh was nothing without Montana because he was 8-24 before Montana was named the starter in SF. Do you want to go there?

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Walsh took over a franchise with very little talent who had finished 2-14 the year before. He had to revamp that entire roster and implement the West Coast offence.

Bill had some good building blocks when he joined the Pats. Future Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers. Law, McGinnest, Bruschi, Brown, Vinatieri

Both needed the best QBs of their era to be dominant.

 

[lancerman]

Which proves what I'm saying even more...the fact that the Niners won twice without Walsh supports the notion that Walsh was not that good of a coach, does it not? However, we all know this is not true...the fact remains Walsh was 8-24 before Montana got there. Without Brady, Belichick's winning percentage is mediocre as well too. So again, are you prepared to say Walsh was carried to 3 super bowls by Montana? Go on...

There is a difference between

“Tom Brady as a player was more responsible for winning because he had to execute the game plan and as the GOAT did it at the highest level”

and

“Bill Belichick was carried”

Bill Belichick is not on the football field. He can get players in the best position possible but he cannot win with no talent. Talent is going to be the difference maker and Brady at the most valuable position is going to make most of the difference.

 

[sb1]

2019 Running Game- 28 carries/game 106.4 yards/game , 3.8 yards/carry
2020 Running Game w/o Newton- 23 carries/game, 110.4yards.game, 4.7yards/carry

The running game would most likely be better but with JE11 on IR Tom would have no one to throw to.

Keep in mind the D is allowing a touchdown more a game than last year.

I see at best a borderline playoff team. Maybe.

I agree. Yeah the defense is horrific. Giving up 257 yards on the ground to the worst rushing team in football is evidence enough that they are not better than last year in any way.

There's one game that definitely flips to a win with Brady and that's the Denver game. That gets us to 7-7. You could argue the KC game I guess if Brady doesn't test positive. So 8-6. Although Brady's team did lose to the Chiefs this year.

The other games were a showcase of awful defense and I doubt they'd be flipped. Maybe we lose the Niners 33-21 with Brady instead of 33-6. Still a loss. Maybe even the first Miami game flips to a loss with Brady instead of Cam since it was Cam's running that dominated them. Who knows.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree. Yeah the defense is horrific. Giving up 257 yards on the ground to the worst rushing team in football is evidence enough that they are not better than last year in any way.

There's one game that definitely flips to a win with Brady and that's the Denver game. That gets us to 7-7. You could argue the KC game I guess if Brady doesn't test positive. So 8-6.

The other games were a showcase of awful defense and I doubt they'd be flipped. Maybe we lose the Niners 33-21 with Brady instead of 33-6. Still a loss.

I think it's a balanced way to look at it. Tom is the GOAT but hes not a freaking miracle worker.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There is a difference between

“Tom Brady as a player was more responsible for winning because he had to execute the game plan and as the GOAT did it at the highest level”

and

“Bill Belichick was carried”

Bill Belichick is not on the football field. He can get players in the best position possible but he cannot win with no talent. Talent is going to be the difference maker and Brady at the most valuable position is going to make most of the difference.

MLB and NBA coaches are typically carried. NHL coaches need to be motivators. NFL coaches have a tremendous impact on games.

KC Jones was the right coach and the right time but it's highly likely you could put any 1/2 way competent coach in the NBA and win with the 86 Celtics.

 

[amfootball]

I think it's a balanced way to look at it. Tom is the GOAT but hes not a freaking miracle worker.

28-3 was definitely divination.

 

[DaBruinz]

The biggest switches was Brady coming in at QB in 2001 when we were 0-2 and going nowhere and then this year it is an improved team with the Oline and run game being much better than last year but Brady left and we are 6-8.

Also you may want to familiarize yourself with Occam's Razor - the simplest and most obvious answer is almost always the correct one.

WOW.. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with OCCAM'S Razor and it's a straw man argument on your part. Again, the fact you are over-simplifying things is why your opinion on the subject is so flawed.

The fact you think that Brady was the "biggest switch" from 2000 to 2001 when they brought in 30 some new people shows that you really don't understand the game of football.

Amongst others, in 2001 the Pats brought in Damon Huard, Mike Compton, Mike Vrabel, Matt Light, Richard Seymour, Bryan Cox, Marc Edwards, Antowain Smith, Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Terrell Buckley, Larry Izzo. The Pats front 7 was entirely revamped that year. Light and Compton helped solidify the O-line in front of Brady while Edwards and Smith gave the Pats a running game they didn't have previously.. It takes TIME for such wholesale changes to gel. It doesn't happen over-night.

And this year, the Pats LBer corps was decimated this year.. Losing Van Noy, Collins, and Hightower. Not to mention Shelton. Not having a true NT for the entire season hurt the 2020 team.