Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[PatsWSB47]

Carried is a bit much, but sure. Brady in a vacuum is the GOAT to me (stats, rings) but purely based on talent and eye test? It’s Manning for me.

Focus your eyes on clutch performances in the biggest games. Who got the job done when it counted most? I'd expand the definition of talent to include that.

 

[Simpelton]

No, debate not over. We went from a legendary QB all the way to a burnt- toast QB. Cam is a glorified running back at this point in his career, even Tebow was a better thrower than 2020 Cam.

We've established that we can win with a genius QB and can't win with a dumster fire QB. There's a middle distance that we need to establish if Belichick can win with a QB in the happy medium range.

Personally I see Belichick going after Andy Dalton in the offseason. He's got the talent to play into a good offensive scheme. He's shown good flashes in a broken franchise down in Dallas. One could do a heck of a lot worse. And I honestly think that with Dalton and the rest of this roster more or less as it is we have a chance to make the playoffs. I like Meyers that much, I think he's got the Welker gene and an accurate midrage passer should be able to complete throws if Meyers and Edelman are on the field all year.

 

[XLIX]

Completely short-sighted opinion as it ignores the fact that Belichick has had only 1 elite QB his entire coaching career

Uh, newsflash... when you have an almost-9-year sample size, and you look at the entire sample, that's the opposite of a "short sighted opinion".

. Ya'll were making excuses for Brady last year when he didn't have weapons but won't afford any lenience to Belichick. How about this, when Brady consistently beats elite teams without Bill, come wake me up...

At least Brady is over .500 - not 11 games under like Belichick is.

 

[XLIX]

Statement like this are not logical. You are taking the record of coaching for his first team and the year he doesn't have the GOAT QB. I look at it as draft picks, in that it takes a few years for a conclusion.

It is an almost-9-year sample size. How many of those 9 years do you get to take away..?!?

 

[sb1]

Belichick’s record in Cleveland doesn’t mean anything to me or his legacy.

His record as Pats head coach does. 25-27 at the moment without Brady. I think he will jump back above .500 next season if all goes well in the draft and FA.

 

[pazrul72]

I am going to get called a Bill homer for this but I have to get it out there, you just can’t make this question into an either or situation there are WAY too many variables. Both Bill and Tom are called the GOAT, and for good reason, what they accomplished together is so mind boogling better then any one else in NFL history it defies reality. They have been to more Super Bowls then any other FRANCHISE. Take that in for a second. We have a player and a coach that when working together in 20 years is better then what any other team has done in 100.

My issue with the people saying it’s all Brady, look at Bill‘s sub .500 record without Brady is the lack of context. Great coaching does not necessarily translate to wins, especially if you have two years of needing to clear cap space in there Which both 2000, and 2020 were. What you have to look at for coaching is are they disciplined? Every week this year the commentary points out they are the lowest penalized team in the league. Are they playing hard, focused, and in every game even when out talented? 2000 they lost 11 games but how many of those were less then a score? This year has been a mixed bag as I give them a pass for the Denver and 49ers games, while the recent Ram game was a fiasco. Then you have giving the Seahawks and Chiefs all they could handle and beating the Ravens.

Do your players buy in and do what they are coached to do? How many people do you need to hear say the attention to detail in New England is unparalleled, the playbook is calculus compared to pre algebra elsewhere, or that Bill called exactly what would happen a week before the game? It’s not one or two examples either if you read the books that are out or listen to former players it comes up again and again that Belichick has an uncanny ability to predict what other teams will do. Players have a feeling of confidence that if they execute the game plan they will win.

Game time decision making is also a major plus, I mean yeah he is human and you can point out the mistakes he has made but I would bet a lot of money he is +80% right which in a game of inches is all you can ask. How often have you seen BB coached teams sprint to the line, or make an adjustment to a crazy formation, or just know the rule book better then the other team? Honestly its more shocking to see it when it doesn’t happen. Bill gets more out of the margins then any one else alive and gives 53 players more, and better, chances to make a play. That’s all coaching can do, after that it’s up to the players to execute which brings me to Tom Brady.

There is no doubt Brady is a HUGE reason the pats have 6 rings. I think BB with an average QB has 2, just from having a good team get lucky having all of the breaks fall the right way. He sets up enough teams with good position year after year that it’s a dice roll that falls the right way. Brady is the amplifier that gets in those make or break situations and +80% of the time does just enough to get a W. What makes Brady so good? It’s not his stats he has only lead the league in any particular stat a couple of times in his 20 year career. There have been plenty of games where he has thrown back breaking ints or fumbled away a W, or won a game 13-3. How many games have they won rushing for 200 yards or the defense being otherworldly? It’s easy to say TB12 is the GOAT and hides everything bad but the truth is for 95% of most games he is just good, sometimes even very good but not elite wins every game by himself. Then you get into the 4th or that situation where you need a kill shot.

I seriously question if Tom has split personality disorder cuz normal Tom is a quiet mild mannered dork that says all the right things and never does anything wrong. Then psycho Tom comes out to play and that man is a ruthless stone cold killer nobody wants to Fu#$ with. He isn’t out very often but that 5% of the time when the chips are down and you gotta have it....Man nobody in the history of football does it better. I think without Bill, Brady wins 2 SB just thru sheer “I am the baddest MF to ever walk the earth” but doesn’t have the teams around him to get 9 shots at the prize. It’s only together thru BB’s building of solid fundamentally sound teams giving Brady so many chances that Psycho Tom was able to capatilize on that got 6 rings.

So who is more important? I would say it’s about 55% Bill as he affects 53 players, including Brady, about 40% Brady as i doubt anyone else could be as consistently clutch, and about 5% Kraft for the world class facilities and staying the fu#$ out of the way. Point is I am grateful for 20 years of dominance the NFL will never see again and appreciate the hell out of every patriot that made it possible. I wish Brady well any time he isn’t playing the Pats cuz he deserves it and I am not sad it didn’t work out until the end of his career here. Keeping it together for 20 years was impressive enough and I have memories for a life time due to BOTH men.

 

[JMC00]

His record as Pats head coach does. 25-27 at the moment without Brady. I think he will jump back above .500 next season if all goes well in the draft and FA.

Belichick went 11-5 with a QB that hadn't started since high school and went 3-1* with Garoppolo and Brissett
*the 1 loss being when Garoppolo decided he couldn't play and Brissett who needed season ending surgery on his throwing thumb did.

14-6 in non-rebuilding years without Brady.
That's a .700 winning percentage.


Anyone using 2000 and 2020 as an argument is just looking to sh!t on him. The first year in NE was always gonna be like that and then he went on to win a SB the next 3 out of 4 years and the 1st season without Brady was always gonna be a reset year especially with how the cap was and despite that if Newton was even 50% of what he was a couple years ago (I'm thinking of the Newton that came into Foxboro went 22/29 300 yards 3 TD and 1 rushing TD and was throwing to Kelvin Benjamin, Devin Fuchess and Ed ****son ) the division might have gone down to the final game. Think they would have beat Denver, Buffalo and probably would have won at least 1 of the last 2 games, maybe both if there was just competent QB play and the division would have come down to next Monday's game.

 

[Triumph]

Revisionist. There was PLENTY of Lennon crap post Beatles. They both had fantastic careers after the breakup. They both had duds as well.

I love me some Brady. Ice in veins, fire in his heart. He made so so many key, clutch plays it’s impossible to list them all. He could be broken into pre injury and post injury and make the hall of fame as two players. Amazing attention to detail and a fierce competitor.

I still think BB was more important. It doesn’t mean I don’t love me some Brady.

Keep your #9 dreaming. Even after taking 5 years off from music Lennon was way better than McCartney post Beatles.

Brady allowed Belichick to put just about any WR out there and let Brady win with him. For years the Pats had bottom tier RBs and Brady still won. People just havent seen enough 8 - 8 seasons yet, but when they do theyll understand.

 

[Billsfanonapatsforum]

Bill. Watched him coach the Giants on defense and absolutely out coach buffalo most of the time ever since then with the Pats. At some point you need talent and this Pats team just doesn't have enough of the talent to overcome, per this topic, the loss of Brady. Even the best coach runs out of self-less players willing to play below their values to stay together as team. How they managed to do that for 20yrs is a testament to the culture. Much like a life expectancy there's a career timeline in football and people are going to try and get everything they can but the league is designed to prevent any single team from also doing that.

it's a players league now, but Bill has done the best job of minimizing those impacts and it'll be hard to repeat by design.

Teams that win a lot jump the individual player value and one team can't afford to pay them all, eventually you can't afford to pay most of them and those guys aren't going to stay. You have to draft well and win on rookie contracts. Kraft is your problem.... if he'd listened to Bill you'd already had a QB, this year wouldn't have been so bad and there'd probably be one less championship but you'd be closer to your next 5. bill is the best.

 

[1960Pats]

Bledsoe sucked in 2000. Winning 5 games with the team and cap nightmare he inherited was a miracle.

Bill turned that team around with some great FA pickups in 2001. Hopefully he'll do that again now, 20 years later.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

People have very short memories...

2020 Patriots (14 games): 20.6ppg, 6-8, 2.08 offensive TDs a game
2019 Patriots (last 9 games): 20.3ppg, 4-5, 1.9 offensive TDs a game

Why do we think the NEP would be better this year with Tom when he has less to work with than last year?

Wow this is an excellent point. 20.3 points per game last year even with TFB. Offense has been like this going on almost 2 years. It's not Cam. Maybe we get a new coordinator who actually values tight ends to come in. Bill O'Brien ?

 

[amfootball]

Bill turned that team around with some great FA pickups in 2001. Hopefully he'll do that again now, 20 years later.

Brady turned it around in 2001. 0-2 and headed for 5-11 again and getting fired for the second time until the GOAT took the field.

 

[1960Pats]

Is it REALLY up to 17 He must be" improving" because the last time I remember looking at that stat when some in the media were touting that Rodger would end up as the GOAT, that 4th quarter figure was in the SINGLE digits.

It is truly remarkable how UNCLUTCH he's been over the years, while putting up such outstanding stats in yds, TDs and pick ratio. NO question his is fun to watch, but like Brees and Peyton, when the chips were down and you HAD to have a 2 minute drive, Tom has proven to be the best there ever was. To me that has been his most important legacy. What is he up to now, 1960?

I'm going by the profootballreference site totals. I had a link to each player's 4QCs and the list of their individual games from there but I can seem to find my way back.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Wow this is an excellent point. 20.3 points per game last year even with TFB. Offense has been like this going on almost 2 years. It's not Cam. Maybe we get a new coordinator who actually values tight ends to come in. Bill O'Brien ?

No it’s not an excellent point! He took all the games this year for his stats but took only the half of it from last year and the bad half because otherwise it wasn’t fitting his narrative.

 

[1960Pats]

Wow this is an excellent point. 20.3 points per game last year even with TFB. Offense has been like this going on almost 2 years. It's not Cam. Maybe we get a new coordinator who actually values tight ends to come in. Bill O'Brien ?

It's not a great point at all when you cherry pick the worst half of 2019 and compare it to all of 2020. Anyone who thinks that Cam isn't a problem is wearing blinders. He sucks.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I never had a problem with Bill the coach, I have problem with Bill the GM. We saw this year than when he wins he wants all the praises but when he lose, it’s everybody’s fault but his.

if you remove Brady from the team the last 20 years, we don’t make the playoff half the time.

brady allowed Bill to do whatever he wants roster wise. Brady allowed Bill to take reclamation project from other teams for nothing. Brady covered everything Bill did with the roster for 20 years. That’s why I think that Brady is the most important piece of the dynasty and it has nothing to do with coaching.

if you don’t have Brady you are obligated to seek talent. So instead of having a multitude mid level guys that cost nothing, you have to pay a good receiver 15 million a year, you have to pay a good TE.

it’s pretty simple without Brady, Bill could not put in place what he did the last 20 years. We saw it the last two years. Brady play decline slightly the last two years and instantly we saw the lack of talent of the roster. It was almost always the case for 20 years but before Brady hid it.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

No it’s not an excellent point! He took all the games this year for his stats but took only the half of it from last year and the bad half because otherwise it wasn’t fitting his narrative.

I think it applies. We started strong last year because the defense was elite and we had AB. Something changed after we traded AB and the offense has been anemic like this going back to Oct 2019.

.

 

[1960Pats]

You didn't answer my post at all though. The reality is, he gets the benefit of the doubt for 1 or 2 seasons. He has won six rings for us.

I am willing to look past this season.

I'm willing to overlook Bill's record here for all the years he and I have left. No matter what happens in the future it will be better with Bill than without him.

The frustrating part about this season is that the Pats are better than many fans expected and a decent QB would have gone a long way.

It also would have been great if Brady had been able to finish his career here and the record wouldn't have mattered to me then either.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I think it applies. We started strong last year because the defense was elite and we had AB. Something changed after we traded AB and the offense has been anemic like this going back to Oct 2019.

.

No it doesn’t. You can’t ignore half of it.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

No it doesn’t. You can’t ignore half of it.

What do you think explains why the offense was so bad the last 8 games last year? We should try to fix the problem. For me one glaring issue is the total lack of TE production now for 2 years in a row

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