Day 3 Training Camp (Real practice begins)

[captain stone]

That's ok. I get it. Dorsett is a decent bench player. His ypc was last of all WRs and 2nd to Dwayne Allen for all non RBs. Once a better WR comes along he gets buried and doesn't see the field as he does not play ST...

That's the problem: a better WR isn't walking through that door this season.
Harry's a rookie;
The rest of "the kids" are Not 53-man-roster-caliber players on a SB contender;
Gordon is a ghost;
And Donkey Thomas is old, hurt, and sucks.

Phil Dorsett is our #1 until Edelman returns, upon which time he'll be our #2 until further notice...i.e., until the games count. Then we'll see who Bill/Brady/McD really trust.

 

[Scotty]

Think that sums things up pretty much until we see what happens

 

[goheels22002]

We can fund a return man out of players who can be effective at their position. I don’t think berrios fits that. And he surely isn’t a great return man who earns his spot by being that good at returning kicks.

I think the focus on Berrios' return responsibilities should be on punt returns. I agree that anybody with good hands can return kickoffs. The main issue is Edelman at age 33. Edelman is such a central piece of the offense that he should not be risking his availability returning punts. Berrios is the most experienced punt returner on the roster and was very good at the U. Berrios averaged over 15 yards/punt return his senior year in the ACC. That role plus a 5-wide role as the second slot receiver would be great.

Dorsett has an interesting challenge this year. I have him on the roster along with Edelman, Harry, Mo Harris, and Inman. I do not think Thomas will be on the 53. Slater gets a WR slot officially as well.

To me, Dorsett is the guy who draws the weakest defender in man, and has always been good at getting to the open area against Tampa 2 and Tampa3 defenses. Brady trusts him to be where he needs him and that is extremely valuable.

Josh Gordon is the X factor, and given his history of playing 7 games a year, I hope he shows up in Week 9 or 10 for the stretch run.

 

[RobertWeathers]

When he was in that role he did ok as evidence by being the leading receiver on the team at beginning of the season, catching 100% of his targets after week 4, and catching the only 2 post season td passes.
Until and unless Harry is ready to produce as a rookie we have no one else capable of doing that other than Edelman.

w Dorsett and Hogan as WR1 and WR2 they averaged 19ppg. In the 5 games he was Wr2/3 he had 19 catches on 29 targets for 190yds. Thats 4 catches for 38yds as your WR2/3. That is very, very average. If he ran back kicks too I could live with that but he doesn't. If we are happy with that then we might as well all move to Buffalo.

I’m talking about the passing game. Regardless of the running game we have to their 600 or so times. The lack of anything at the te position means the wr position is more important. TEs aren’t going to be making clutch plays and big plays so WRs dong have to.

You just made my point. If we need WRs to make plays, that rules out Dorsett.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

So ends the Danny Etling era at QB (not to say at WR)

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Has this board really sunk so low?

You know who else asked that? Hitler.

 

[n6249c]

You know who else asked that? Hitler.

Finally! Godwin’s Law has been complied with!

 

[Ring 6]

I think the focus on Berrios' return responsibilities should be on punt returns. I agree that anybody with good hands can return kickoffs. The main issue is Edelman at age 33. Edelman is such a central piece of the offense that he should not be risking his availability returning punts. Berrios is the most experienced punt returner on the roster and was very good at the U. Berrios averaged over 15 yards/punt return his senior year in the ACC. That role plus a 5-wide role as the second slot receiver would be great.

Dorsett has an interesting challenge this year. I have him on the roster along with Edelman, Harry, Mo Harris, and Inman. I do not think Thomas will be on the 53. Slater gets a WR slot officially as well.

To me, Dorsett is the guy who draws the weakest defender in man, and has always been good at getting to the open area against Tampa 2 and Tampa3 defenses. Brady trusts him to be where he needs him and that is extremely valuable.

Josh Gordon is the X factor, and given his history of playing 7 games a year, I hope he shows up in Week 9 or 10 for the stretch run.

You are more impressed with berrios or history than me. His 15 yards was only on 13 returns and 15 ypr in college is not outstanding. His career was just 10.4.
Harry can return punts as well.

I think Belichick disagrees that having Edelman return punts is a bad idea. He is very good at it. He returned 20 punts last year. I think if you told bb that’s 20 too many plays risking injury I think he would say that he would rather eliminate some of the 9 runs and 74 catches rather than take away an opportunity to give him the ball in the open field to run back the kick. I also don’t think bb sees players as China who have to be protected from breaking. He has always used a top wr as his PR. It would have been very easy at some point over the last dozen years to just draft or sign a return specialist.

 

[Ring 6]

w Dorsett and Hogan as WR1 and WR2 they averaged 19ppg. In the 5 games he was Wr2/3 he had 19 catches on 29 targets for 190yds. Thats 4 catches for 38yds as your WR2/3. That is very, very average. If he ran back kicks too I could live with that but he doesn't. If we are happy with that then we might as well all move to Buffalo.

I’m happier with that then a guy who couldn’t do that.
What do you think we would have done with Harris and berrios as 1 and 2?
And you are wrong. In those games we averaged 26.6.

You just made my point. If we need WRs to make plays, that rules out Dorsett.

Who caught both post season TD passs last year?

 

[Deus Irae]

Harris was born in November 92 and Dorsett - January 93..... so this age difference is worth pointing out? Really???

When you are talking about potential a/k/a ceiling a/k/a upside, yes, the fact that the player being touted as the guy with more potential improvement is the older player is worth pointing out. One of the reasons most often cited for 'upside' players is their age, after all.

Where did I ever say I've seen anything to indicate Harris has more upside, other than it was fair for someone else to have seen something in his game.

You specifically used the word upside:

But it's fair for some posters to believe there is more upside to Harris, and thus an edge.

Doesn't matter. It's a wide open competition and everything is opinion.

 

[Deus Irae]

2018 New England Patriots Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

These are the per game receiving averages for the team last year. In Hogan (33 ypg), Gronk (52), and Gordon (65), we lost our #2, #3, and #5 receivers by production. Jules (71) and White (47) rounded out the top five. BTW Dorsett (18) produced about as much as Patterson (16) whom we also lost.

1. Dorsett ain’t it unless he takes a big step up.
2. Even if Harry can equal what Gronk did, we still need to replace what Gordon did.
3. Even if Harris can replace Hogan we still need to replace what Gordon and Gronk did.
4. Jules was good for 70 a game but he’s getting older.
5. LaCosse (17) seems unlikely to be able to replace Gronk.

There are scenarios where none of this is an issue. If Gordon comes back, LaCosse takes a jump up, Harry can approach what Gronk did, and Thomas can still play, then we might not have enough balls to go around. But the other extreme (Jules is out a while, Harry has a steep learning curve, Gordon is gone forever, Thomas is done, LaCosse is Scott Chandler, Watson retires) is in play too.

This unit has taken some big hits. A lot of things need to fall properly for it to shine this year.

Dorsett was basically put on the bench, in terms of pass targets, once Gordon was on the field, so averaging his numbers over the course of the season is misleading in both the positive and negative analysis.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Can’t all be wrong if some say Dorsett makes the roster and some say he doesn’t. Unless....

...there is no roster to make?!?!?

NO! Please! Don’t go there!

 

[RobertWeathers]

I’m happier with that then a guy who couldn’t do that.
What do you think we would have done with Harris and berrios as 1 and 2?
And you are wrong. In those games we averaged 26.6.



Who caught both post season TD passs last year?

I don't know. That was last year and they weren't on the team.

JE, Josh and Hogs had more targets. He was 6th in targets that game and had 3 catches for 25 yards. Is that a WR3 to you?

Do you really think that helps make your case?

 

[Ring 6]

I don't know. That was last year and they weren't on the team.

JE, Josh and Hogs had more targets. He was 6th in targets that game and had 3 catches for 25 yards. Is that a WR3 to you?

Do you really think that helps make your case?

Yeah that’s exactly a wr3/wr4 to me. I’m not sure what game you are referring to.

This is the role I am talking about.
WR4 if all goes well (actually Wr5 if all goes well meaning Edelman Harry Thomas And Gordon are all playing)
Wr3 when someone goes down ir struggles
Wr2 when the spit hits the fan.

Dorsett fits that role perfectly.
Brady trusts him which is important for a guy who may be out of the rotation one week and a key piece the next.
When needed he caught 19 passes in the first 5 weeks. That’s a 60+ catch guy. When his role was reduced from week 5 to week 15 he caught 100% of his targets.
When we he was needed after Gordon went our he caught both post season td passes.
That is value and reliability and I find it hard to think we should hand that job to someone not reliable because you think he won’t go beyond the role, which is a vital role.

I’m surprised you are putting zero weight on being reliable and trusted by Brady.

 

[Richard Camembert]

Dorsett was basically put on the bench, in terms of pass targets, once Gordon was on the field, so averaging his numbers over the course of the season is misleading in both the positive and negative analysis.

That’s true, that figure of 18 includes 4 games in which Dorsett had no targets. Dorsett did catch pretty much everything thrown at him the last two months of the season. However, he wasn’t targeted for four straight games while, for example, Hogan got targeted 2-3x/gm during that time. Edelman and Gordon both started in early October and Dorsett was the odd man out. If you take out half the season and average Dorsett’s production over 8 games, unreasonably favourable to him, he’s at 36 ypg, comparable to what Hogan did (33). Maybe a cut above JAG level.

But: do you think the Pats are set at WR right now in terms of personnel?

 

[Deus Irae]

That’s true, that figure of 18 includes 4 games in which Dorsett had no targets. Dorsett did catch pretty much everything thrown at him the last two months of the season. However, he wasn’t targeted for four straight games while, for example, Hogan got targeted 2-3x/gm during that time. Edelman and Gordon both started in early October and Dorsett was the odd man out. If you take out half the season and average Dorsett’s production over 8 games, unreasonably favourable to him, he’s at 36 ypg, comparable to what Hogan did (33). Maybe a cut above JAG level.

Your response makes my point. A guy on the bench has low/no production, and a WR3-WR4 guy starting as the WR2 will likely have inflated production, and you won't be able to make a reasonable analysis of a full season is your stuck with too much of either end of it. And, in this case, we've probably got too much of both.

But: do you think the Pats are set at WR right now in terms of personnel?

That depends on multiple unknowns. Some key questions:

1. What level will Harry be at come week 1?
2. Will Gordon be on the 53 come week 1?
3. Will Thomas be ready and on the 53 come week 1?
4. Is Harris just pulling an offseason thing, of has something clicked for him?
5. Will there be a drop off seen in Edelman?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah that’s exactly a wr3/wr4 to me. I’m not sure what game you are referring to.

This is the role I am talking about.
WR4 if all goes well (actually Wr5 if all goes well meaning Edelman Harry Thomas And Gordon are all playing)
Wr3 when someone goes down ir struggles
Wr2 when the spit hits the fan.

Dorsett fits that role perfectly.
Brady trusts him which is important for a guy who may be out of the rotation one week and a key piece the next.
When needed he caught 19 passes in the first 5 weeks. That’s a 60+ catch guy. When his role was reduced from week 5 to week 15 he caught 100% of his targets.
When we he was needed after Gordon went our he caught both post season td passes.
That is value and reliability and I find it hard to think we should hand that job to someone not reliable because you think he won’t go beyond the role, which is a vital role.

I’m surprised you are putting zero weight on being reliable and trusted by Brady.

I'm surprised you think we can't improve over Phillip Dorsett.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm surprised you think we can't improve over Phillip Dorsett.

And I’m surprised you think after all these years that you can just throw guys into this offense with no experience and rely on them and dump the guy who knows the offense and has Brady’s trust when there is no indication at all that they are even improvement aside from the experience issue.

We arent talking about good players, you are pretty plucking faces from the crowd.

We could improve upon dorsett with Harry, Thomas and Gordon if/when they can play. But not with stiffs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Perhaps, but he still has quite a ways to go (about 17,000 posts) to reach his Excellence:

View attachment 23761
View attachment 23760

Leave me out of this idiocy over post counts.

 

[RobertWeathers]

And I’m surprised you think after all these years that you can just throw guys into this offense with no experience and rely on them and dump the guy who knows the offense and has Brady’s trust when there is no indication at all that they are even improvement aside from the experience issue.

We arent talking about good players, you are pretty plucking faces from the crowd.

We could improve upon dorsett with Harry, Thomas and Gordon if/when they can play. But not with stiffs.

Harris is not a stiff....and he didn't have TB12 throwing to him or BB coaching him either.