Curran:Banishing Collins was a drastic move for not so drastic times

[Tunescribe]

It doesn't make sense to me that a guy as smart as Patricia uses such a vanilla boring conservative scheme on defense. BB coached some of the most aggressive defenses in NFL history, why does he now employ this scheme?

Patricia employs what BB tells him to. The "bend-don't-break" defenses we're seeing are BB playing the percentages to kill time with a lead and not let the opponent score points in a hurry. It's frustrating to watch as a fan because it's not real aggressive, but it arguably is a winning strategy.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Getting 53 men on the same page cannot be easy ... in Belichick I trust.

 

[borg]

Let's cut to the chase...
Keeping Collins for the final 8 games plus playoffs...as an impending free agent...as a lame duck Patriot ...how willing would Collins or anyone in his situation be to sacrifice his body for a team that is not in your future ...knowing that injury could jeopardize the massive windfall of cash likely coming his way if he survives 8 more weeks.
This is not BB's first rodeo. He's seen it all which includes varying levels of commitment and sacrifice. IMO, BB saw Collins as a player he couldn't count on down the stretch because his Patriots future had already been settled once contract talks went nowhere

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

My take on BB and staff's defensive philosophy is: Do vanilla/the basics consistently satisfactory (the target is: never give up too many big plays/never give up easy TDs). Do that consistently well and We'll expand outside the vanilla scheme.
If that philosophy is true then has the defense instilled that kind of confidence in BB/MP/Staff?

As far as BB acting without consultation/unilaterally on Collins is something I don't buy. I'd be shocked if he called MP into his office to say "I'm unhappy with the D Matt so I'm trading one of your stars. I hope that delivers a clear message to you Matt!". That kind of action just doesn't mesh with my understanding of how BB operates. I'd bet the mortgage BB and JM and other D staff have been watching film and had (rightly or wrongly) identified Collins recent(or longer) play as problematic. I'd bet the farm MP has been reviewing the film, has been working to rectify what he/they've been seeing on film regarding Collins, and he ultimately to some degree bought off on getting rid of Collins due to it not improving. And if that's not the case I'm surprised BB and MP have remained together after several years now (and this may just be MP's last season under BB).

As far as Collins, the trade may be the best thing that has happened for him. There are D philosophies out there that value free lancing, attacking style. Maybe he'll thrive again under that kind of scheme. For me, personally, while I'd love to see our D be good enough to attack!, it's not optimal for our current team. Gronk, Bennett, Blount, Jules, DA, Hogan, White, Lewis, BRADY - the sky is the limit with our O. Give us a D that makes opposing offenses earn every point and IMHO that is a solid scheme to the fifth ring.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

BB is often described as the greatest defensive mind in NFL history. Which surprises me his defenses of the past 10 years have not been considered dangerous and deadly. I mean, our 01 03 04 Ds and the 80s giants Ds used to put the fear of God into opposing QBs and teams. Bbs defenses of 08-16 have been described by many pundits and fans around the league as soft, weak, lacking playmakers, below average...

It's hard to imagine those type of words described of Belichick defenses of the past. The current Seahawks and Broncos, those are the type of ds I would have imagined Belichick developing every year

 

[QuantumMechanic]

This is not BB's first rodeo. He's seen it all which includes varying levels of commitment and sacrifice. IMO, BB saw Collins as a player he couldn't count on down the stretch because his Patriots future had already been settled once contract talks went nowhere

I keep thinking back to 2009 and "I can't get them to play the way I need them to" and wondering if having been burned on Adalius Thomas's antics he wasn't going to risk having anything like that develop again.

 

[ALP]

BB is often described as the greatest defensive mind in NFL history. Which surprises me his defenses of the past 10 years have not been considered dangerous and deadly. I mean, our 01 03 04 Ds and the 80s giants Ds used to put the fear of God into opposing QBs and teams. Bbs defenses of 08-16 have been described by many pundits and fans around the league as soft, weak, lacking playmakers, below average...

It's hard to imagine those type of words described of Belichick defenses of the past. The current Seahawks and Broncos, those are the type of ds I would have imagined Belichick developing every year

he is described incorrectly, he is not "greatest defensive mind"...he is what he needs to be...so back in his giants days and in the early 2000s, he was focused on D b/c D won games and won championships

nowadays w/ the changes in the game, having a better O than D is very important, so he adjusted and has been rolling with it

 

[NG Pats Fan]

he is described incorrectly, he is not "greatest defensive mind"...he is what he needs to be...so back in his giants days and in the early 2000s, he was focused on D b/c D won games and won championships

nowadays w/ the changes in the game, having a better O than D is very important, so he adjusted and has been rolling with it

4 of the past 5 super bowl champions (11 giants 12 Ravens 13 Seahawks 15 Broncos ) all had much better defenses than offenses...so your "having a better O than D" theory is not justified in my opinion.

Defense wins championships has always been a proven commodity


If Bb isn't the greatest defensive mind, then who is?

 

[n1997y]

Interesting piece from Curran. And some things that make you wonder "Hmm. What is he hearing from players off the record?"

Anyhow, a couple of bits that caught my eye in particular...



and also

Yep, those made me feel Curran was trying to knife Patricia with that piece. He conveniently ignores the report that Collins got into a heated argument with Patricia recently, which really shifts the narrative from Patricia not being able to get Collins to play the way the wanted, to Collins pushing back and resisting his coaching. Can't blame the coach if a player decides he doesn't want to be coached.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

BB's schemes were from a different time. Try pounding M Faulk in a SB in today's NFL. He could be aggressive while DC w the Giants - no cap meant keeping alltime talent, no player protection meant pounding on the field, more macho-style meant it was smash mouth rather than precision...

In today's game, BB's strategy works. Look at his record. He has how many wins since 2000 ? Rings ?

The "we should win every year" crowd - I'm convinced BB would tell you - minimize the difficulty of (1) winning year in year out (2) managing millionaires (3) controlling me first millenials (4) dealing with injuries.....

Aggressive Ds are getting torched by Brady on a weekly basis. I prefer winning. BB's master plan gives us that.

BB was very aggressive with the early 2000 patriots Ds. Not so anymore.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

BB was very aggressive with the early 2000 patriots Ds. Not so anymore.

1) Brady and NE offense is better now than it was then.
2) Constraints on defenses have shifted drastically. Could never get away with the '01-04 stuff today.

 

[n1997y]

Patricia employs what BB tells him to. The "bend-don't-break" defenses we're seeing are BB playing the percentages to kill time with a lead and not let the opponent score points in a hurry. It's frustrating to watch as a fan because it's not real aggressive, but it arguably is a winning strategy.

Take away what they do best, make them beat you with the rest. Make the opponent execute and make plays consistently. Most teams cannot. Especially if you neutralize their favorite weapons.

I think there's perhaps another aspect to it. Keeping it vanilla most of the time makes it difficult for the opponent to be prepared when you turn it up. I think it was the end of the Steelers game when the Pats' defense started shutting them down after letting Landry Jones look good for three quarters. Made me wonder if there's also an element of planning ahead for the playoffs, not showing everything too soon.

Can't argue with results thus far. Lots of Ws to show for it.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

1) Brady and NE offense is better now than it was then.
2) Constraints on defenses have shifted drastically. Could never get away with the '01-04 stuff today.

Yet defenses like 12 Baltimore 13 Seattle 15 Denver were super aggressive. So it can be done correct?

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Take away what they do best, make them beat you with the rest. Make the opponent execute and make plays consistently. Most teams cannot. Especially if you neutralize their favorite weapons.

I think there's perhaps another aspect to it. Keeping it vanilla most of the time makes it difficult for the opponent to be prepared when you turn it up. I think it was the end of the Steelers game when the Pats' defense started shutting them down after letting Landry Jones look good for three quarters. Made me wonder if there's also an element of planning ahead for the playoffs, not showing everything too soon.

Can't argue with results thus far. Lots of Ws to show for it.

The results are good, but if our offense ever gets shutdown, do you think our defense can win the game for us? We might need them to come through for us if our offensive line breaks down in the postseason again. I'm not saying this will happen, but it could. Do you trust this defense?

I do think our offense is so good it's more than capable of winning the super bowl

 

[Canuck]

I might not always agree with Belichick but I usually can see the reason why he made a move. This Collins trade leaves me baffled. It's not the trade itself but what we got in return. Michael Lombardi is the one saying negative things about Collins and Lombardi is not even with the Patriots anymore. He is speculating like everyone else. The media and fans are just feeding off what Lombardi has been saying. I have yet to see 1 negative comment from a player or coach. It's been nothing but great comments before and after the trade. For what we got in the trade, Belichick was basically saying Collins was not worth even being a part time player. That the remaining LBs are more valuable then he is. It's looking more like that this was strictly a Belichick move and that Patricia or Flores wasn't involved.

It's yet to be seen but I don't think this will affect the defense that much. It's going to be interesting for the rest of the year to see if the YDS/G start to decline from the current 354. The YDS/G have declined for 2 straight years and this years increase is a not a great sign.

 

[dafoe2016]

Curran is one of the few Boston sportswriters I respect. But I think he is off base on this one. He has no idea how bad it was. None of us do. If the kid was refusing to listen to Bill he had to go. We can't have that sort of thing here. There are teams that can get way with running a loose ship. Pete Carrol in Seattle. But that's not the plan here. Remember how bad it got in 2010? I think Bill remembers that and isn't going to let it get to that point again.

Would be nice if he could have figured out that the dude doesn't care about football before actually drafting him though.

 

[supafly]

Patricia employs what BB tells him to. The "bend-don't-break" defenses we're seeing are BB playing the percentages to kill time with a lead and not let the opponent score points in a hurry. It's frustrating to watch as a fan because it's not real aggressive, but it arguably is a winning strategy.

Yes, it would be difficult to look past the obvious success that it has brought us. I think things would be slightly different if they were able to cause some turnovers on a regular basis, as they've done in the past.

And again--I think having Tom Brady and knowing that our offense is likely to score 25+ allows them to mask certain things. I'm guessing that they'd deploy a bit of a more aggressive approach without that safety net.

 

[supafly]

Would be nice if he could have figured out that the dude doesn't care about football before actually drafting him though.

I'd have to assume that they knew plenty about Jamie Collins prior to drafting him. This was the kid when asked at the end of a game on national TV if he'd like to say hello to his mother shook his head and gave a one worded "nah," in response.

I'm not sure that labeling him as "not caring about football" is necessarily appropriate in this case. One thing to remember is that Belichick has chosen to work the salary cap/free agency in his favor by drafting cheap players, taking advantage of their reasonably priced talent and replenishing them with new draft picks. It's tough to watch as fans, but the next Jamie Collins will surface here soon enough--or at least a player who can do 75 percent of what he does at a much lesser cost compared to the 11m dollars a year they reportedly offered him.

 

[supafly]

I keep thinking back to 2009 and "I can't get the them to play the way I need them to" and wondering if having been burned on Adalius Thomas's antics he wasn't going to risk having anything like that develop again.

You bring up a fine point, and the issue with Thomas was more from his displeasure of playing the strong side. That was Belichick's decision to use him there, and that's where the "antics" came from. He just didn't seem to buy into the Patriot Way.

He was an absolute beast here for the first 1.5 seasons. As a matter of fact, he was on pace to have one of his best seasons ever in 2008 until he broke his arm. Unfortunately, he came back in '09 pissed off and unmotivated.

 

[luuked]

BB is often described as the greatest defensive mind in NFL history. Which surprises me his defenses of the past 10 years have not been considered dangerous and deadly. I mean, our 01 03 04 Ds and the 80s giants Ds used to put the fear of God into opposing QBs and teams. Bbs defenses of 08-16 have been described by many pundits and fans around the league as soft, weak, lacking playmakers, below average...

It's hard to imagine those type of words described of Belichick defenses of the past. The current Seahawks and Broncos, those are the type of ds I would have imagined Belichick developing every year

Just out of curiosity.. how old are you ?