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Curious to hear everyone's thoughts on Welker

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This is part of my point when arguing about Wes Welker. Not only do we all have in our minds what constitutes "best" receiver, we also cannot really agree on what constitutes "productive". If we cannot agree on the terms of the discussion, we're just totally missing each other, which is part of the frustration on the part of a lot of people, I would guess.

I would agree with that statement. I'm not frustrated though. I expected my opinion to not be shared by most. That doesn't make me wrong, of course.
 
I would agree with that statement. I'm not frustrated though. I expected my opinion to not be shared by most. That doesn't make me wrong, of course.

Of course. And discussing it, even if we can't all agree on the terms, can still be fun. But it does explain why there's often not a lot of agreement.

For example, let's say we were talking about "Which NFL receiver had the most receptions?" Um...pretty short discussion, since that's an easily agreed-upon term and it's easily looked-up. But terms like "best" and "productive" and "efficient" and "talented" and "explosive"....those are, in some way, eye-of-the-beholder sorts of things. Makes for more open-ended discussion, but, of course, more disagreement.

But hey, that's cool.
 
Actually, it's you who is being emotional and irrational over this and you are illustrating my point exactly.
Quite the contrary, I am focussed on the facts.

The chances of Wes Welker EVER having a season like this again is almost zero.

He JUST had it genius?

He is 30, and he just had a career year. His yards/catch average was 2 full yards higher than ever before.
Because the offense has evolved, and the TEs give him more room to operate. It wasn't luck if that is your point.


It won't happen again. And you know what? It still didn't lead the team to a superbowl win.
So every team except the Giants should get rid of their best and most productive players because they didn't win the SB?



Not just because of "the drop", but because this team was too reliant on Brady, Welker, and the 2 TEs. That's it!
That is the strength of the team that overcame many weaknesses. You want to elimiante the strength because it didn't win a SB despite all the weaknesses. Really sound thinking.

You essentially just implied that Brady, Gronk, Hernandez and Welker are the weakness that caused a team that should have won the SB to not win it.
Please provide a list of what you think the strengths of the team are.


If one of those 3 guys didn't get the job done and Brady didn't get him the ball, they can't win.
That is a statement about the rest of the team not the QB who had the second most passing yards and the 3 recievers that combined for 291 catches 3800 yards and 38 TDs.
With an average passing offense this team would have been 5-11.

If you pay Welker $10 mil+ over 4 years, you're committing yourself to more of the same. You'll be seeing more 2nd and 3rd picks, has-beens, and JAGs coming in to play safety, CB, 2nd WR, and OLB.

So your answer is to eliminate the strength in order to spend $4,000,000 more on something else?
Actually, I believe you stated your plan was to bring in 2 different FA WRs, which would end up costing more.

You realize that your plan (well you don't really seem to have a plan just random complaints) is that the identity of the team is flawed and must be changed after they just spend the last 5 years averaging almost 13 wins a season (when no one else average more than 11) winning 4 of 5 division titles (losing only to a tiebreaker when Brady missed the year) going to 2 SBs and being 1 play in each away from winning them.
 
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The argument about the QB has to be taken into account both ways. There's a lot to be said about playing with Brady and having great numbers because of that. I will grant you that in the first half of 2009, you would have a case for his number being good. In the last 8 games of '09, he had 30 catches for 420 yards. Including the memorable playoff game when he didn't even bother trying to run his route half the time. And in 2010, the WR being paid as one of the 5 best in the NFL, ended up flopping with 3 separate teams.

The question was whether he was overpaid, and the answer obviously is no.
 
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This is part of my point when arguing about Wes Welker. Not only do we all have in our minds what constitutes "best" receiver, we also cannot really agree on what constitutes "productive". If we cannot agree on the terms of the discussion, we're just totally missing each other, which is part of the frustration on the part of a lot of people, I would guess.

Technically, I should have said 'one of the few most productive' because I should have realized the entire point would be dismissed and it would evolve into an argument over semantics to avoid the facts.
 
Ian R. Rapoport ? @RapSheet

I was told very strongly earlier in the week that the market for Wes Welker would be incredibly active. That's why Pats won't let him be FA

Not really news, but...it would have been interesting for purposes of this thread to know what value other teams placed on Welker
 
What's interesting about the Welker deal is the age factor. I'm a Welker fan and hope he remains here for the rest of his career, but what worries me is do we commit large money (over $8 mil per) to a guy who may be exiting his prime within the next year or 2.

Wes's game is all about agility and quickness, getting in and out of his breaks quick. It's not crazy to think a WR at 33 & 34 will not produce like he did at 30 so the question is do we pay for what he's done or do we pay for what we believe he will do. It seems half the people here say pay him for what he's produced and believe he will continue that same production and the other half are on the other side of the fence.
 
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Actually, it's you who is being emotional and irrational over this and you are illustrating my point exactly. The chances of Wes Welker EVER having a season like this again is almost zero. He is 30, and he just had a career year. His yards/catch average was 2 full yards higher than ever before. It won't happen again. And you know what? It still didn't lead the team to a superbowl win. Not just because of "the drop", but because this team was too reliant on Brady, Welker, and the 2 TEs. That's it! If one of those 3 guys didn't get the job done and Brady didn't get him the ball, they can't win. If you pay Welker $10 mil+ over 4 years, you're committing yourself to more of the same. You'll be seeing more 2nd and 3rd picks, has-beens, and JAGs coming in to play safety, CB, 2nd WR, and OLB.

Ill take more of the same thank you very much, beef up the D a little and I like our chances in the playoffs for the next 3-4 years.
 
Not really news, but...it would have been interesting for purposes of this thread to know what value other teams placed on Welker

Schefter & others have reported that Welker will be tagged if an agreement is not reached in time.
 
And what was the "reason" in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010? There are always "reasons" for losing. But there were no reasons in 2001, 2003, and 2004. They didn't have any injuries in those 3 years. Oh no! Brady didn't play the '01 Superbowl on a gimpy knee. They didn't go through almost the entire playoffs in 2004 without the best DL in the NFL. No, those were not reasons for them to lose.

Are you kidding me with this crap?

2007: Brady all but immobile against the league's best pass rush
Neal lost in 2nd quarter
TEs injured and completely ineffective
despite that, it was a helmet catch from perfection. You have to be brainless to pin this loss on too much passing.

2008: Brady lost for season, 11-5 doesn't get team to playoffs

2009: Brady still coming back, but not himself. Welker lost for the game
As BB noted in the documentary, that team was Welker/Moss and no mas. Minos Welker, it becomes just Moss, and that's not enough to overcome the early onslaught.

2010: Brady throws stupid pick, Crumpler drops TD, Patriots can't beat man coverage on outside

2011: Gronk hurt, Welker/Hernandez/Branch with huge drops, Brady with bad INT, safety that probably shouldn't have been called

Those are reasons, not excuses. Brady was less injured in '01 than in '07, as any glance at the tape can show.

You're just talking out your ass at this point.

I'm sorry, I forgot that you're the unequivocal authority on the subject and that your word is the law. But you still haven't answered my question. Was Moss' quality of play and production from '08 to '10 worth $27 mil?

1.) He didn't cost the Patriots 27 mil
2.) His production in '08 and '09 was worth more than 9 mill each year
3.) '10 is a non-factor because of his moving about, etc...

The reality is that Moss had 152 catches for 2,272 yards and 25 touchdowns in '08 and '09, including 3rd in the NFL in receiving TDs in '08, first in the NFL in receiving TDs in '09, and 5th in the NFL in receiving yards in '09, despite not having a full strength Brady for either season. He clearly was not underpaid on his contract.

The irony of your "I forgot that you're the unequivocal authority on the subject and that your word is the law" is that you're arguing just as strongly from the other side, despite having offered no facts to back your position.

Yes, the money was there. They just decided to allocate it to other players.

And, thus, the argument falls

Actually, I'm referencing a very well-know self-proclaimed authority on the subject. His name is Deus Irae. And he said:

"He deserves to be paid accordingly. However, since he's not a 'true' WR, it's difficult to define 'accordingly' in context."

What I have done, is defined the "accordingly" just about as well as anyone else on this board.

You've done nothing of the sort. You pulled numbers out of your ass. There's a reason that we're getting information such as this from Schefter:

The New England Patriots are likely to place their franchise tag on wide receiver Wes Welker, according to a league source.

The two sides have been discussing a new deal, but if one cannot be reached, New England plans to use the $9.5 million franchise wide receiver tag. ...

Schefter on Welker negotiation - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

and this item from the Herald:

Why not just let him test the market? I was told very strongly earlier in the week that the market for Welker would be incredibly active. That’s why Pats won’t let him be free agent. They can’t risk it.

BostonHerald.com - Blogs: Rap Sheet» Blog Archive » Patriots to franchise tag WR Wes Welker if the two sides can’t make a deal

That reason isn't because $6-$7 million is a great number and you've nailed "accordingly".

Now it's just "Deus being obtuse". Instead of making a point, you're arguing the semantics of your own argument. I addressed your point. And if you're not able to argue back about the actual item in question and instead feel like you need to qualify how ridiculous my point is, I'll just note that you have nothing more of value to add and end it with that.

No, you made a statement. It's irrefutable as a generality that any player can fall under:

there's a reasonable argument to be made that he can be replaced to a certain degree and the savings can be allocated towards improving the team in other areas.

Any player in NFL history falls into that category, which makes your 'point' a non-issue.

Then, you look to your statement as a specifically targeted spot for Welker, and you've come up with nothing to back your argument in terms of specifically replacing him.
 
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Technically, I should have said 'one of the few most productive' because I should have realized the entire point would be dismissed and it would evolve into an argument over semantics to avoid the facts.

Heh. I hear you. But still, even "one of the few most productive" still means we would all have to agree on what "productive" means, and I don't think everyone is on the same page with that.
 
I'm in the camp that believes the Pats are far better off bringing Welker back, not only because of his production but also because a highly productive receiver means opponents can no longer key on the remaining weapons (i.e., Gronk and Hernandez). All this of course is predicated on him not making ridiculous demands, but considering that he hasn't held out, demanding an extension like some other NFL players have, I am highly doubtful that this will happen.

However, I do find it a topic worthy of discussion. For every action there's a reaction if you will; it's interesting to speculate on any of the myriad of other options with those funds, or what other direction the offense could possibly go in without him.

The point is this: this isn't like someone saying Kraft should fire Belichick, trade Brady now while the Pats can get something in return for him, and get the Mallett era underway immediately. Nobody's opinion is absolutely right or absolutely wrong.

Is it really too much to ask for a bit more civility on this forum?
 
look..the truth of the matter is..if a deal isn't worked out, he'll be tagged...the cap goes up next year,THAT is when the biatching and moaning should commence..the FACT is Welker is NOT a broken piece in this offense, he's SET..Gronk is SET...AHern is SET..this team needs a wideout that can unclog the middle more than the current Patriots offensive WR group can....I think residual anger directed at Welker because he dropped that pass leads a lot of fans to think "hey, eff him!! we can replace him in a NY minute!!"...anybody who KNOWS this NE passing offense KNOWS that Welker's knowledge of how to make decisions in it is second to none. Brady knows it, BB knows it...I suggest everybody relax just a bit.
 
.... You'll be seeing more 2nd and 3rd picks, has-beens, and JAGs coming in to play safety, CB, 2nd WR, and OLB.

Maroney - 1st round
Jackson - 2nd round
Meriweather - 1st round
Wheatley - 2nd round
Butler - 2nd round
Cunningham - 2nd round
Adalius Thomas - big money FA


If you want to see why the team has had issues at WR, CB, OLB, and S (Heck, I even threw in RB), look at the draft (and the failure of AdT) instead of salaries spent on the likes of Wes Welker. You don't even have to get past the 2nd round to see it.
 
look..the truth of the matter is..if a deal isn't worked out, he'll be tagged...the cap goes up next year,

It's set to boom after the 2013 season.
 
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Wes Welker remains on the New England Patriots roster.

Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson is shown the door.

It's just the logical decision, if you ask me.

Why can't the New England Patriots improve the defense via the 2012 NFL Draft? Why do the New England Patriots have to spend money in free agency on a safety (all the unrestricted free agent safeties are vastly overrated)?
 
Wes Welker remains on the New England Patriots roster.

Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson is shown the door.

It's just the logical decision, if you ask me.

Why can't the New England Patriots improve the defense via the 2012 NFL Draft? Why do the New England Patriots have to spend money in free agency on a safety (all the unrestricted free agent safeties are vastly overrated)?

I think that you are right.

Through the draft and some potentially 'unsexy' type FA moves, this defense should continue to get better.

The good news is that we saw a lot of good improvement down the stretch, and any added pieces should certainly help the cause.
 
the cap is set to increase in 2013...

2013 Cap Could Affect 2012 Free Agency « Baltimore Ravens Blogs

Ask The Commish.com - Salary Cap FAQ

2013 is the first year of the new rules kicking in, not after...

The trouble with blogs is anyone can have one. The cap will remain flat through 2013. The new TV deals kick in in 2014 and that is when the cap will increase dramatically. Although I do believe that 2013 is the year that teams rather than the league as a whole have to begin spending to higher cap minimums.

That said, agents anticipating the 2014 dramatic cap increases will be either holding off on long term deals or demanding they account for/anticipate it.
 
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The discussion should more appropriately be:

Option A)
Welker
Branch or low end FA
Rookie - rounds 1-3
Rookie - UDFA type
Edleman
Slater - resign

Option B)
FA
FA
Branch or low end FA
Rookie
Edelman
Slater - resign

Option C)
TBD FA - not Welker, high to mid end
TBD FA - not Welker, low end
Rookie
Rookie
Edelman
Slater - resign

IMO the discussion is how much $$ to allocate to WR. It could go in a number of directions, I don't think the Patriots want to allocate too much money to WR. One high end player (Welker or other) the rest will be piece mealed together likely via the draft.
 
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