Coulda, Shoulda: Debate past draft decisions here

[stinkypete]

To me there is no debate, Mayo wins out over anyone else who could have been picked. Cornerbacks and offensive tackles are easier to find than Patriots system-ready linebackers. It's a question of supply vs. demand, especially now with more teams potentially employing the 3-4.

Watching Arizona play reminds me how much I wanted to see Karlos Dansby selected #32 in 2004 instead of Ben Watcon. If Dansby were picked instead we would not be talking about a need for a young OLB.

 

[mayoclinic]

the only real killer of a bad deal was the pats moving up for chad jackson.......that year, the pats literally went out of their way to draft the worst pick in the 2nd round instead drafting.....I mean just go down the rest of the 2nd round........you could be a blind monkey and thrown a dart at the draft board, and 95 times out of 100 you would have hit better

5 37 Jimmy Williams Falcons DB Virginia Tech
6 38 Thomas Howard Raiders LB Texas-El Paso
7 39 Winston Justice Eagles T USC
8 40 Daniel Bullocks Lions DB Nebraska
9 41 Taitusi (Deuce) Lutui Cardinals G USC
10 42 Danieal Manning Bears DB Abilene Christian
11 43 Roman Harper Saints DB Alabama
12 44 Sinorice Moss Giants WR Miami (FL)
13 45 LenDale White Titans RB USC
14 46 Joe Klopfenstein Rams TE Colorado
15 47 Daryn Colledge Packers T Boise State
16 48 Cedric Griffin Vikings DB Texas
17 49 Kellen Clemens Jets QB Oregon
18 50 Marcus McNeill Chargers T Auburn
19 51 Ryan Cook Vikings C New Mexico
20 52 Greg Jennings Packers WR Western Michigan
21 53 Anthony Fasano Cowboys TE Notre Dame
22 54 Bernard Pollard Chiefs DB Purdue
23 55 Andrew Whitworth Bengals T Louisiana State
24 56 Chris Chester Ravens C Oklahoma
25 57 Devin Hester Bears WR Miami (FL)
26 58 Richard Marshall Panthers DB Fresno State
27 59 Jeremy Trueblood Buccaneers T Boston College
28 60 Maurice Jones-Drew Jaguars RB UCLA
29 61 Tony Scheffler Broncos TE Western Michigan
30 62 Tim Jennings Colts DB Georgia
31 63 Darryl Tapp Seahawks DE Virginia Tech
32 64 Tarvaris Jackson Vikings QB Alabama State

What hurts most about the Jackson trade to me is that Green Bay took Greg Jennings with our original #52 pick, and he would have been perfect. Also, Richard Marshall from Fresno State went #58 to Carolina at CB. At lot of people had him going #21 to the Pats (based in part on the Pat Hill connection given that we had taken Mankins the year before), and he would have solved our CB issue with Asante becoming a FA.

Belioli had a lot of great drafts, but the 2006 draft seems to me to be their least successful effort. It was rated a fairly good draft (MUCH better than 2005, and better than 2007), but except for Gostkowski and Maroney we came away with very little, and Maroney has not lived up to expectations.

 

[mayoclinic]

To me there is no debate, Mayo wins out over anyone else who could have been picked. Cornerbacks and offensive tackles are easier to find than Patriots system-ready linebackers. It's a question of supply vs. demand, especially now with more teams potentially employing the 3-4.

Watching Arizona play reminds me how much I wanted to see Karlos Dansby selected #32 in 2004 instead of Ben Watcon. If Dansby were picked instead we would not be talking about a need for a young OLB.

I badly wanted Dansby over Watson as well. If we had him I think we would play him at SILB. Dansby and Mayo would be phenomenal. I normally don't believe in crying over spilt milk, but that's one of the few picks that I have trouble not thinking "what if" about, especially since it was such a realistic option at the time.

I agree with you that Mayo wins out over anyone else that could have been picked. Realistically I thought our options were ILB (Mayo or Rives, and I preferred Mayo by a lot), OT (Clady or Albert, and I preferred Clady as a true LT) and CB (DRC or McKelvin, and I preferred DRC). The 2008 draft was maligned as being very weak at the top, but it looks like it is going to turn out a lot of successful players. The 2006 draft, which was considered strong at the top at the time, looks like it will not be as successful.

I don't think we could have gone wrong with DRC or Albert as our picks, but our greatest need was at ILB and Mayo is a perfect fit for the Pats. In the long run I think he may be better for us than if we had gotten Patrick Willis. Finding OTs and CBs will be easier than finding another franchise ILB, given where we normally pick. DJ Moore and Sean Smith are likely to be as good prospects as McKelvin and DRC (can't tell at this early point whether they'll be as good as pros). And there are a number of attractive OT prospects out there, even some that may be available to us in the first 2 rounds where we pick (Eben Britton, William Beatty). So I'm happy.

 

[Deus Irae]

What hurts most about the Jackson trade to me is that Green Bay took Greg Jennings with our original #52 pick, and he would have been perfect. Also, Richard Marshall from Fresno State went #58 to Carolina at CB. At lot of people had him going #21 to the Pats (based in part on the Pat Hill connection given that we had taken Mankins the year before), and he would have solved our CB issue with Asante becoming a FA.

Belioli had a lot of great drafts, but the 2006 draft seems to me to be their least successful effort. It was rated a fairly good draft (MUCH better than 2005, and better than 2007), but except for Gostkowski and Maroney we came away with very little, and Maroney has not lived up to expectations.

I've said it before and, given where McDaniels ended up, I may be saying it again: Due to his injuries, Jackson never got what I felt was enough time to show himself capable of playing in this league. He did get into a couple of games for the Broncos this season, and he averaged about 20 yards per return in 8 kickoff returns. Hopefully, for the sake of having a decent shot at analyzing the kid, he'll get an entire offseason and training camp where he's with the same team and healthy. I hate calling injured players "busts" until there's no shadow of a doubt.


P.S. I can trace my unwillingness to call injured players "busts" at least as far back as Steve Emtman. Talk about a bad luck player....

 

[VJCPatriot]

I badly wanted Dansby over Watson as well. If we had him I think we would play him at SILB. Dansby and Mayo would be phenomenal. I normally don't believe in crying over spilt milk, but that's one of the few picks that I have trouble not thinking "what if" about, especially since it was such a realistic option at the time.

Well Dansby is a free agent, so if BB agrees with you, the Pats will make an effort to sign him.

Serious do-over of Pats 2006 draft.

Round 1 # 21 Mathias Kiwunaka DE/OLB
Round 2 # 36 Marcus Mcneil LT
Round 3 # 86 Owen Daniels TE
Round 4 # 106 Brandon Marshall WR
Round 4 #118 Stephen Gostkowski K
Round 5 #136 Marques Colston WR

Ok we still wouldn't have gotten a RB out of the draft, but considering how good our WR corps got, we probably never would have had to run.
Our OL would have been even more dominating, we'd have a real TE and our D would actually be able to bring some pressure on the QB.

 

[mayoclinic]

I've said it before and, given where McDaniels ended up, I may be saying it again: Due to his injuries, Jackson never got what I felt was enough time to show himself capable of playing in this league. He did get into a couple of games for the Broncos this season, and he averaged about 20 yards per return in 8 kickoff returns. Hopefully, for the sake of having a decent shot at analyzing the kid, he'll get an entire offseason and training camp where he's with the same team and healthy. I hate calling injured players "busts" until there's no shadow of a doubt.

P.S. I can trace my unwillingness to call injured players "busts" at least as far back as Steve Emtman. Talk about a bad luck player....

For the record, I've never called Jackson a "bust". I just said that we ended up not getting much productivity out of the 2006 draft. I don't think anyone can argue that we got minimal productivity from Jackson over his time as a Patriot.

I was surprised that BB cut him this summer, and thought he would be given more of a chance. I assume there was something more than just taking a while to get the system that pissed BB off to give up on him so soon, but I'm just guessing.

 

[Deus Irae]

For the record, I've never called Jackson a "bust". I just said that we ended up not getting much productivity out of the 2006 draft. I don't think anyone can argue that we got minimal productivity from Jackson over his time as a Patriot.

I was surprised that BB cut him this summer, and thought he would be given more of a chance. I assume there was something more than just taking a while to get the system that pissed BB off to give up on him so soon, but I'm just guessing.

I wasn't trying to call you out on that, so I'm sorry if I left that impression. You just happened to be the last one who posted on it prior to my post. My bad for not clarifying that.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I've said it before and, given where McDaniels ended up, I may be saying it again: Due to his injuries, Jackson never got what I felt was enough time to show himself capable of playing in this league. He did get into a couple of games for the Broncos this season, and he averaged about 20 yards per return in 8 kickoff returns. Hopefully, for the sake of having a decent shot at analyzing the kid, he'll get an entire offseason and training camp where he's with the same team and healthy. I hate calling injured players "busts" until there's no shadow of a doubt.


P.S. I can trace my unwillingness to call injured players "busts" at least as far back as Steve Emtman. Talk about a bad luck player....

even healthy, jackson wasn't picking anything up.........bethel johnson lost his playbook and still managed to hang on longer than jackson did.......he may produce somewhere someday, but he was too knuckleheaded to ever be a part of the pats offense, so I'd have to call him a bust

 

[Patriot Missile]

Everybody misses, that's why there is a title to this thread. 2006 was just not one of our better drafts. Sure, Jackson didn't pan out but either did the CB Jimmy Williams who many here projected as a first round grade. In a different system or team it's possible these two went on to better careers.

Mike Vrabel may of been out of the NFL had we not picked him off the scrap heap of Pittsburgh and converted him to LB. All venues of life are related to circumstances and chance encounters.

 

[cstjohn17]

For the record, I've never called Jackson a "bust". I just said that we ended up not getting much productivity out of the 2006 draft. I don't think anyone can argue that we got minimal productivity from Jackson over his time as a Patriot.

What does a bust look like in your eyes?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

What does a bust look like in your eyes?

That's a good question? Does that mean that he thinks Bethel and Klemm were not busts as well?

What about Ken Sims and Hart Lee Dykes?????

How can a WR reportedly run out of town by his own QB's not be a bust??????

 

[tanked_as_usual]

That's a good question? Does that mean that he thinks Bethel and Klemm were not busts as well?

What about Ken Sims and Hart Lee Dykes?????

How can a WR reportedly run out of town by his own QB's not be a bust??????

in all fairness, dykes was pretty good until he got hurt

 

[SunnyDenmark]

personally - I think the Mayo / Wheatly vs. DRC / Lofton debate is a joke. No way to know that Pats could move up and get Lofton. For all we know maybe they did try and move up high in 2nd round but had all trade offers rebuffed.

More specifically: Mayo vs. DRC
Mayo won DROY award (over DRC ) and it was a position of need for Pats not only for 2008 but for years to come due to age of our LB's. Furthermore, he was a day 1 starter in a very complex defensive system and was calling some of the defensive signals by the end of the year. No way to tell how DRC would have fit into Pats system and /or respond to Pats coaching.

As far as long term - no one here (that I am aware of) has a crystal ball so it is a meaningless exercise. We can only accurately debate the 1st years performance and DROY by almost unamious choice settles that issue.

What do people want around here to be happy?

I am beginning to think that the only way around here to please some Pats fans is the next Tom Brady or the 2nd coming of ************.

 

[PatsFan2]

the only real killer of a bad deal was the pats moving up for chad jackson.......that year, the pats literally went out of their way to draft the worst pick in the 2nd round instead drafting.....I mean just go down the rest of the 2nd round........you could be a blind monkey and thrown a dart at the draft board, and 95 times out of 100 you would have hit better

5 37 Jimmy Williams Falcons DB Virginia Tech
6 38 Thomas Howard Raiders LB Texas-El Paso
7 39 Winston Justice Eagles T USC
8 40 Daniel Bullocks Lions DB Nebraska
9 41 Taitusi (Deuce) Lutui Cardinals G USC
10 42 Danieal Manning Bears DB Abilene Christian
11 43 Roman Harper Saints DB Alabama
12 44 Sinorice Moss Giants WR Miami (FL)
13 45 LenDale White Titans RB USC
14 46 Joe Klopfenstein Rams TE Colorado
15 47 Daryn Colledge Packers T Boise State
16 48 Cedric Griffin Vikings DB Texas
17 49 Kellen Clemens Jets QB Oregon
18 50 Marcus McNeill Chargers T Auburn
19 51 Ryan Cook Vikings C New Mexico
20 52 Greg Jennings Packers WR Western Michigan
21 53 Anthony Fasano Cowboys TE Notre Dame
22 54 Bernard Pollard Chiefs DB Purdue
23 55 Andrew Whitworth Bengals T Louisiana State
24 56 Chris Chester Ravens C Oklahoma
25 57 Devin Hester Bears WR Miami (FL)
26 58 Richard Marshall Panthers DB Fresno State
27 59 Jeremy Trueblood Buccaneers T Boston College
28 60 Maurice Jones-Drew Jaguars RB UCLA
29 61 Tony Scheffler Broncos TE Western Michigan
30 62 Tim Jennings Colts DB Georgia
31 63 Darryl Tapp Seahawks DE Virginia Tech
32 64 Tarvaris Jackson Vikings QB Alabama State

You can say the bilnd monkey part again even LenDale White turned out to be a better RB than Maroney. In many ways i wished we could have done that Draft over.