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Cian Fahey on Tom Brady (2)

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Vegas disagrees with you

According to Bovada LV, Brady currently is a heavy favorite at 5/8. Antonio Brown and Russell Wilson are next at 6/1

Big games from either players will go a long way on Sunday, but Brady had a 1-3 TD/INT line the past two games with one of the poorest offensive showings in a long time, whereas Brown has put up big numbers to put himself squarely in the race. He’s also made huge plays at the end of games recently to allow his team to win in crucial moments, so that’s helping him to gain some attention.

Also, these odds are post-Wentz, so I think that aspect should be taken into account.
 
Why do you insist on lying about what I said?

Brady at this point is damn near unanimous.
Lying? What do you mean? It’s written right there. Those are your words. You claimed that Brady would pretty much be a unanimous decision.

Man, even when someone tries to look past the crap and answer your post in a fair and respectful manner, you continue to keep up the tough guy routine. Again—what in the world is your deal?
 
Lying? What do you mean? It’s written right there. Those are your words. You claimed that Brady would pretty much be a unanimous decision.

Man, even when someone tries to look past the crap and answer your post in a fair and respectful manner, you continue to keep up the tough guy routine. Again—what in the world is your deal?

Well I think his chances will dimish a bit if he doesn't have a good game against the squealers. I don't think it won't be unanimous.
 
Well I think his chances will dimish a bit if he doesn't have a good game against the squealers. I don't think it won't be unanimous.
First off, I don’t really think it matters that much who the MVP is, but to continue a hypothetical debate, of course it would be huge if he had another mediocre game and Brown and Pittsburgh pretty much went on to secure the #1 seed with a victory.

Now, if that were to happen and Brown were to have another big game on top of everything, I think he’d improve his odds dramatically. It would certainly be much, much closer than we’d want to admit.

Of course, if Brady were the one to have the big game and lead his team to victory while Brown had a poor performance, he would likely never look back with 2 games to play.
 
Lying? What do you mean? It’s written right there. Those are your words. You claimed that Brady would pretty much be a unanimous decision.
Why did you cut off the comment?

Where did I say there were no other candidates. I said Brady was the favorite.



Man, even when someone tries to look past the crap and answer your post in a fair and respectful manner, you continue to keep up the tough guy routine. Again—what in the world is your deal?
Fair and respectful? By posting half of the sentence?
Still waiting for you to admit that you lied saying I said Floyd mastered the system. I’ve brought it up 5 times now and you refuse to acknowledge it.
What in the world is your deal? You do not deserve respect and certainly don’t show any.
 
TB_Helmet said:
Please don't bring Bayes into this, his head would explode if he saw the reasoning you used in the OP.

I'm a social scientist and statistician and read "Bayesian" and just went "bwuhh?"

@TB_Helmet @primetime ,

I do not claim to have the same expertise in Bayesian analysis as a social scientist, but I don't agree that the reference to Bayes in the original post would cause Bayes's or anyone else's head to explode. However, I will be more explicit here:

From a subjectivist point of view, we all have a prior belief that a 40 year old quarterback would benefit from extra rest compared to the same quarterback when he was younger. This loosely speaking is the prior.

We also have a body of specific evidence pertaining to whether Brady himself would benefit from increased rest.

A. Some of this evidence suggests that Brady would benefit from increased rest (by which I specifically will mean skipping games). This evidence includes the analysis in Fahey's report, which argued that Brady, late in the season, showed signs of weakening arm strength. Other evidence includes the increased interception rate in the last few games and weaker play in the most recent Dolphins game and possibly the Bills game.

B. Other evidence suggests that Brady would not benefit from increased rest. This evidence includes Brady's performance in Q4 SBLI (although of course Brady had two byes not long prior so even that could be argued to be partly in the A camp), in his body of work late in the season, and in arguments that Brady's apparent decline in ability in the last few games either (a) was illusory or (b) was due to injury. The (a) argument would be that for example the interception in the Bills game was not actually Brady's fault; that he actually played very well in the Miami game and was handicapped by injuries to other Patriots or by poor game planning. The (b) argument, even if true, seems somewhat equivocal from the standpoint of arguing against increased rest, since increased rest might help prevent and recover from injuries anyway, but it's been raised. It is also possible to argue, as primetime did above, that Brady's long record both this season and in prior seasons supports B.

Let us divide these two kinds of Brady-specific evidence relevant to the question of whether he would benefit from increased rest into the pro evidence, A, and the con evidence, B.

We let the posterior P(R|A,B) to be the chance the Brady benefits from increased rest. Now, in a subjectivist Bayesian formulation, we all have a prior belief C that a randomly chosen 40 year old QB benefits from increased rest. C is based on our personal experiences, on medical experiences, on the history of older athletes both in the NFL (and perhaps in other sports). It is something that different people certainly quantify differently but nearly anyone would agree that C is close to 1.

The subjectivist Bayesian approach is therefore to evaluate A and B with reference to C: P(R|A,B) is implicitly P(R|A,B,C).

An objectivist Bayesian approach would view C as a base rate among all possible 40 year old quarterbacks that they benefit from increased rest. When the base rate is very high, we need very strong evidence B to overcome the supposition that most likely a particular QB is part of the set of QBs measured by C. The distinction between the subjectivist and objectivist approaches is always a bit delicate and not that important to this discussion. What is important to the discussion is that the amount of evidence C is very high is enormously high compared to B (or to A for that matter). Therefore, any argument that B outweighs A must account for C.

To be fair it is also possible that the base rate C is d-separated by other Brady-specific evidence, which is to say, that using the base rate C is inherently misleading because the typical 40-year old QB would also demonstrate other signs of declining play that Brady has not demonstrated. We might say that it is more accurate to limit C to the rate amongst quarterbacks who continue to play at a very high level. Since that hasn't been done, to my knowledge, it is difficult to quantify.

This discussion here isn't coming to any particular conclusion. It's just a way of framing the main issues, and in particular, whatever the mathematical formalism suggested, in noting that our prior belief in decreased stamina amongst older athletes compared to younger athletes should be accounted for in assessing the likely impact of playing or not playing Brady every game. It is this explicit accounting for a prior which I called Bayesian, contrasting with frequentist approaches which are typically prior-free. (In fact, it's a very difficult philosophical question, one which to the best of my knowledge has not been solved, how to rigorously apply any statistical or probabilistic tools to unique, one-off, individualistic questions of this kind. People try anyway but I've never been all that persuaded of the well-foundedness of the approaches. The issue is that any frequentist interpretation of probability assumes replicability that one-off events do not have. And the subjectivist interpretations are very difficult to apply in practice because of the vast and ill-defined nature of the evidence - here, nearly all sports and medical data would technically be relevant. But that's a side issue.)
 
 
@TB_Helmet @primetime ,

I do not claim to have the same expertise in Bayesian analysis as a social scientist, but I don't agree that the reference to Bayes in the original post would cause Bayes's or anyone else's head to explode. However, I will be more explicit here:

From a subjectivist point of view, we all have a prior belief that a 40 year old quarterback would benefit from extra rest compared to the same quarterback when he was younger. This loosely speaking is the prior.

We also have a body of specific evidence pertaining to whether Brady himself would benefit from increased rest.

A. Some of this evidence suggests that Brady would benefit from increased rest (by which I specifically will mean skipping games). This evidence includes the analysis in Fahey's report, which argued that Brady, late in the season, showed signs of weakening arm strength. Other evidence includes the increased interception rate in the last few games and weaker play in the most recent Dolphins game and possibly the Bills game.

B. Other evidence suggests that Brady would not benefit from increased rest. This evidence includes Brady's performance in Q4 SBLI (although of course Brady had two byes not long prior so even that could be argued to be partly in the A camp), in his body of work late in the season, and in arguments that Brady's apparent decline in ability in the last few games either (a) was illusory or (b) was due to injury. The (a) argument would be that for example the interception in the Bills game was not actually Brady's fault; that he actually played very well in the Miami game and was handicapped by injuries to other Patriots or by poor game planning. The (b) argument, even if true, seems somewhat equivocal from the standpoint of arguing against increased rest, since increased rest might help prevent and recover from injuries anyway, but it's been raised. It is also possible to argue, as primetime did above, that Brady's long record both this season and in prior seasons supports B.

Let us divide these two kinds of Brady-specific evidence relevant to the question of whether he would benefit from increased rest into the pro evidence, A, and the con evidence, B.

We let the posterior P(R|A,B) to be the chance the Brady benefits from increased rest. Now, in a subjectivist Bayesian formulation, we all have a prior belief C that a randomly chosen 40 year old QB benefits from increased rest. C is based on our personal experiences, on medical experiences, on the history of older athletes both in the NFL (and perhaps in other sports). It is something that different people certainly quantify differently but nearly anyone would agree that C is close to 1.

The subjectivist Bayesian approach is therefore to evaluate A and B with reference to C: P(R|A,B) is implicitly P(R|A,B,C).

An objectivist Bayesian approach would view C as a base rate among all possible 40 year old quarterbacks that they benefit from increased rest. When the base rate is very high, we need very strong evidence B to overcome the supposition that most likely a particular QB is part of the set of QBs measured by C. The distinction between the subjectivist and objectivist approaches is always a bit delicate and not that important to this discussion. What is important to the discussion is that the amount of evidence C is very high is enormously high compared to B (or to A for that matter). Therefore, any argument that B outweighs A must account for C.

To be fair it is also possible that the base rate C is d-separated by other Brady-specific evidence, which is to say, that using the base rate C is inherently misleading because the typical 40-year old QB would also demonstrate other signs of declining play that Brady has not demonstrated. We might say that it is more accurate to limit C to the rate amongst quarterbacks who continue to play at a very high level. Since that hasn't been done, to my knowledge, it is difficult to quantify.

This discussion here isn't coming to any particular conclusion. It's just a way of framing the main issues, and in particular, whatever the mathematical formalism suggested, in noting that our prior belief in decreased stamina amongst older athletes compared to younger athletes should be accounted for in assessing the likely impact of playing or not playing Brady every game. It is this explicit accounting for a prior which I called Bayesian, contrasting with frequentist approaches which are typically prior-free. (In fact, it's a very difficult philosophical question, one which to the best of my knowledge has not been solved, how to rigorously apply any statistical or probabilistic tools to unique, one-off, individualistic questions of this kind. People try anyway but I've never been all that persuaded of the well-foundedness of the approaches. The issue is that any frequentist interpretation of probability assumes replicability that one-off events do not have. And the subjectivist interpretations are very difficult to apply in practice because of the vast and ill-defined nature of the evidence - here, nearly all sports and medical data would technically be relevant. But that's a side issue.)
I take it all back!!! Post of the day right here.
 
@TB_Helmet @primetime ,

I do not claim to have the same expertise in Bayesian analysis as a social scientist, but I don't agree that the reference to Bayes in the original post would cause Bayes's or anyone else's head to explode. However, I will be more explicit here:

From a subjectivist point of view, we all have a prior belief that a 40 year old quarterback would benefit from extra rest compared to the same quarterback when he was younger. This loosely speaking is the prior.

We also have a body of specific evidence pertaining to whether Brady himself would benefit from increased rest.

A. Some of this evidence suggests that Brady would benefit from increased rest (by which I specifically will mean skipping games). This evidence includes the analysis in Fahey's report, which argued that Brady, late in the season, showed signs of weakening arm strength. Other evidence includes the increased interception rate in the last few games and weaker play in the most recent Dolphins game and possibly the Bills game.

B. Other evidence suggests that Brady would not benefit from increased rest. This evidence includes Brady's performance in Q4 SBLI (although of course Brady had two byes not long prior so even that could be argued to be partly in the A camp), in his body of work late in the season, and in arguments that Brady's apparent decline in ability in the last few games either (a) was illusory or (b) was due to injury. The (a) argument would be that for example the interception in the Bills game was not actually Brady's fault; that he actually played very well in the Miami game and was handicapped by injuries to other Patriots or by poor game planning. The (b) argument, even if true, seems somewhat equivocal from the standpoint of arguing against increased rest, since increased rest might help prevent and recover from injuries anyway, but it's been raised. It is also possible to argue, as primetime did above, that Brady's long record both this season and in prior seasons supports B.

Let us divide these two kinds of Brady-specific evidence relevant to the question of whether he would benefit from increased rest into the pro evidence, A, and the con evidence, B.

We let the posterior P(R|A,B) to be the chance the Brady benefits from increased rest. Now, in a subjectivist Bayesian formulation, we all have a prior belief C that a randomly chosen 40 year old QB benefits from increased rest. C is based on our personal experiences, on medical experiences, on the history of older athletes both in the NFL (and perhaps in other sports). It is something that different people certainly quantify differently but nearly anyone would agree that C is close to 1.

The subjectivist Bayesian approach is therefore to evaluate A and B with reference to C: P(R|A,B) is implicitly P(R|A,B,C).

An objectivist Bayesian approach would view C as a base rate among all possible 40 year old quarterbacks that they benefit from increased rest. When the base rate is very high, we need very strong evidence B to overcome the supposition that most likely a particular QB is part of the set of QBs measured by C. The distinction between the subjectivist and objectivist approaches is always a bit delicate and not that important to this discussion. What is important to the discussion is that the amount of evidence C is very high is enormously high compared to B (or to A for that matter). Therefore, any argument that B outweighs A must account for C.

To be fair it is also possible that the base rate C is d-separated by other Brady-specific evidence, which is to say, that using the base rate C is inherently misleading because the typical 40-year old QB would also demonstrate other signs of declining play that Brady has not demonstrated. We might say that it is more accurate to limit C to the rate amongst quarterbacks who continue to play at a very high level. Since that hasn't been done, to my knowledge, it is difficult to quantify.

This discussion here isn't coming to any particular conclusion. It's just a way of framing the main issues, and in particular, whatever the mathematical formalism suggested, in noting that our prior belief in decreased stamina amongst older athletes compared to younger athletes should be accounted for in assessing the likely impact of playing or not playing Brady every game. It is this explicit accounting for a prior which I called Bayesian, contrasting with frequentist approaches which are typically prior-free. (In fact, it's a very difficult philosophical question, one which to the best of my knowledge has not been solved, how to rigorously apply any statistical or probabilistic tools to unique, one-off, individualistic questions of this kind. People try anyway but I've never been all that persuaded of the well-foundedness of the approaches. The issue is that any frequentist interpretation of probability assumes replicability that one-off events do not have. And the subjectivist interpretations are very difficult to apply in practice because of the vast and ill-defined nature of the evidence - here, nearly all sports and medical data would technically be relevant. But that's a side issue.)

I'm kinda of an old guy and am a little new to this internet lingo stuff but STFU seems to be a fitting response to this ****.

Just sayin.
 
Fair and respectful? By posting half of the sentence?
Do you also not understand what consensus means? It means he is the favorite,which he is.
Everyone has to have 3 more games before they win an award when they have played 13 of 16.

Brady at this point is damn near unanimous.
I most certainly did not post “half the sentence.” I quoted it verbatim. You said what you said, and it was incorrect.

And for the record, Wentz had thrown his league leading (and franchise record setting) 33rd TD pass on the team with the best record in the NFL who also became the first squad to clinch a postseason berth on Sunday prior to his injury. Tell me when the last time that a TD leading QB who led his team to the best record in the NFL didn’t win the MVP. I’ll wait. It certainly doesn’t happen often, if ever.

I think it’s fairly safe to say that Wentz was fully in the running, much more than you’re willing to accept. Actually, Sports Illustrated had him overtake Brady 4 weeks ago, and USA Today still has him ranked first even after the injury, with Brown second and Brady third. Considering all of these facts, I think he’d have gained more than a handful of first place votes (or, as you said—“possible” first round votes.)
 
WTF is a Cian Fahey?
He’s some goof who came out with his analysis that Brady was declining and had thrown some really poor balls that should have been picked much more than he was last year.

I guess the OP is referencing his article in an attempt to try and prove his point that Brady should’ve been given the first month off in order to save his health and energy.
 
It has nothing to do with age. I fear Brady is hurt.

He may be, but putting all those eggs in one basket probably doesn't consider other causal factors such as poor LG play allowing pressure up the middle, a diminished running game versus the Dolphins overall, way less weapons to target, a well executed defensive game plan by the opponent, being on the road reducing rest and stamina slightly, but most importantly (related, yes) LESS PRACTICE!

How can fans be shocked that the player perhaps best known for his maniacal preparation is slightly less sharp when he doesn't have the same amount of reps? More so for a QB that may be the best ever in recognizing and reacting to defensive alignments and game plans especially no longer having BOTH muscle memory and recognition (much less that exquisite TIMING with his receivers) gained from going against a good scout team leading up to these games.

Fans and media alike are frothing at the mouth eager to bathe in the "decline of TB12"...yet just as they scream loudly about one game of feedback in a loss they forget the longer, much larger, sample size of the wins (much less the career) that came before.

Ignore the trend to harp on the anomaly.
 
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According to a Curran Brady’s hand is the issue. He banged it up a few weeks ago. If so it should be much like the thigh contusion last season, it affected him for a few weeks then he moved past it.

Fahey is a moron, period. I’m not sure why anyone would pay any attention to him.
 
[Fahey is] some goof who came out with his analysis that Brady was declining

Fahey does not argue Brady is declining. I believe he argues 2016 was Brady's best year in many years and better than nearly any other QB, although I don’t recollect exactly.

What Fahey does argue is this: Brady benefited from the extra rest in 2016.
 
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According to a Curran Brady’s hand is the issue. He banged it up a few weeks ago. If so it should be much like the thigh contusion last season, it affected him for a few weeks then he moved past it.

Fahey is a moron, period. I’m not sure why anyone would pay any attention to him.
If Brady was injured he should have been rested. I mean I thought he should have been rested anyway, that he was injured just strengthens the case. The goal here is not to win an MVP or prove how indestructible Brady is, it's to win another ring.
 
@TB_Helmet @primetime ,

I do not claim to have the same expertise in Bayesian analysis as a social scientist, but I don't agree that the reference to Bayes in the original post would cause Bayes's or anyone else's head to explode. However, I will be more explicit here:

From a subjectivist point of view, we all have a prior belief that a 40 year old quarterback would benefit from extra rest compared to the same quarterback when he was younger. This loosely speaking is the prior.

We also have a body of specific evidence pertaining to whether Brady himself would benefit from increased rest.

A. Some of this evidence suggests that Brady would benefit from increased rest (by which I specifically will mean skipping games). This evidence includes the analysis in Fahey's report, which argued that Brady, late in the season, showed signs of weakening arm strength. Other evidence includes the increased interception rate in the last few games and weaker play in the most recent Dolphins game and possibly the Bills game.

B. Other evidence suggests that Brady would not benefit from increased rest. This evidence includes Brady's performance in Q4 SBLI (although of course Brady had two byes not long prior so even that could be argued to be partly in the A camp), in his body of work late in the season, and in arguments that Brady's apparent decline in ability in the last few games either (a) was illusory or (b) was due to injury. The (a) argument would be that for example the interception in the Bills game was not actually Brady's fault; that he actually played very well in the Miami game and was handicapped by injuries to other Patriots or by poor game planning. The (b) argument, even if true, seems somewhat equivocal from the standpoint of arguing against increased rest, since increased rest might help prevent and recover from injuries anyway, but it's been raised. It is also possible to argue, as primetime did above, that Brady's long record both this season and in prior seasons supports B.

Let us divide these two kinds of Brady-specific evidence relevant to the question of whether he would benefit from increased rest into the pro evidence, A, and the con evidence, B.

We let the posterior P(R|A,B) to be the chance the Brady benefits from increased rest. Now, in a subjectivist Bayesian formulation, we all have a prior belief C that a randomly chosen 40 year old QB benefits from increased rest. C is based on our personal experiences, on medical experiences, on the history of older athletes both in the NFL (and perhaps in other sports). It is something that different people certainly quantify differently but nearly anyone would agree that C is close to 1.

The subjectivist Bayesian approach is therefore to evaluate A and B with reference to C: P(R|A,B) is implicitly P(R|A,B,C).

An objectivist Bayesian approach would view C as a base rate among all possible 40 year old quarterbacks that they benefit from increased rest. When the base rate is very high, we need very strong evidence B to overcome the supposition that most likely a particular QB is part of the set of QBs measured by C. The distinction between the subjectivist and objectivist approaches is always a bit delicate and not that important to this discussion. What is important to the discussion is that the amount of evidence C is very high is enormously high compared to B (or to A for that matter). Therefore, any argument that B outweighs A must account for C.

To be fair it is also possible that the base rate C is d-separated by other Brady-specific evidence, which is to say, that using the base rate C is inherently misleading because the typical 40-year old QB would also demonstrate other signs of declining play that Brady has not demonstrated. We might say that it is more accurate to limit C to the rate amongst quarterbacks who continue to play at a very high level. Since that hasn't been done, to my knowledge, it is difficult to quantify.

This discussion here isn't coming to any particular conclusion. It's just a way of framing the main issues, and in particular, whatever the mathematical formalism suggested, in noting that our prior belief in decreased stamina amongst older athletes compared to younger athletes should be accounted for in assessing the likely impact of playing or not playing Brady every game. It is this explicit accounting for a prior which I called Bayesian, contrasting with frequentist approaches which are typically prior-free. (In fact, it's a very difficult philosophical question, one which to the best of my knowledge has not been solved, how to rigorously apply any statistical or probabilistic tools to unique, one-off, individualistic questions of this kind. People try anyway but I've never been all that persuaded of the well-foundedness of the approaches. The issue is that any frequentist interpretation of probability assumes replicability that one-off events do not have. And the subjectivist interpretations are very difficult to apply in practice because of the vast and ill-defined nature of the evidence - here, nearly all sports and medical data would technically be relevant. But that's a side issue.)

You do know there's nothing special about age 40 right? The human body doesn't suddenly fall off a cliff at age 40. All your medical data would likely show minute differences between 39 and 40 or even 38 and 40. Given the small number of players who have ever played over 38, making any sort of inference based on such a small sample is somewhat ludicrous. There's enough outliers (Jaromir Jagr) to fill a distribution. And Brady played exceptionally well over 38, so why not just continue to use that arbitrary cutoff?

Congratulations on passing your undergrad logic course, but there are about thirty counterfactuals that would lead to intense uncertainty in any sort of Bayesian analysis about the inference you're making. Again, the preponderance of evidence - not Fahey's essay - says that the last game was an outlier.

Fahey, for what it's worth, is a contrarian. He's trying to make his living from his moms basement in Ireland with a never ending series of "ACTUALLY, X quarterback who isn't Aaron Rodgers is bad" hot takes.
 
Fahey, for what it's worth, is a contrarian. He's trying to make his living from his moms basement in Ireland with a never ending series of "ACTUALLY, X quarterback who isn't Aaron Rodgers is bad" hot takes.[/QUOTE]

No idea how or why people follow some of the morons out there.
 
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