Celtics trade Isaiah Thomas, Brooklyn 2018 pick & players for Kyrie Irving

[1960Pats]

You shouldn't be drinking so heavily during the week.

It was meant only slightly in jest. I'm a big fan of his.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I guess you have a much different picture of Danny's job security than most of us do. He's not on the verge of losing his job based on this trade. He's got a big time track record, he's in tight with the owners and the coach, and he's not going to get kicked to the curb if Kyrie leaves in two years without a Finals appearance. There would have to be a total team melt down for such a thing to happen, like all the young talent and the next two years draft pics would all have to miss AND the Kyrie / Hayward / Irving "big 3" will need to be a disaster (i.e. not just fail to make the Finals) for that to happen.

IMHO Danny is very safe, barring some sort of epic melt down that requires a GM swap.

That being said, CLE is probably pretty happy with their new GM after this trade. It seems he's positioning them well for the post-LeBron era.

Well, I outlined the reasons why this is a very risky deal for Danny and the Celtics. If they do not get past CLE, if KI walks and if the chemistry is awful and with the team being over the luxury tax without winning the EC, it would not be looking good for Danny

Now, that might be the epic meltdown you are referring to but it would be under those conditions in which he would lose his job

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

People seem to forget that this Celtic Team was down 2-0 by a Bulls Team with Rondo in the backcourt. Minus that Rondo injury the Bulls win the series beating a #1 seed. Y

Weren't games 1 and 2 right after his sister died???? That right there is a reason to give him a huge pass for having the moxie to play when he had to be suffering so much......

 

[IllegalContact]

Well, I outlined the reasons why this is a very risky deal for Danny and the Celtics. If they do not get past CLE, if KI walks and if the chemistry is awful and with the team being over the luxury tax without winning the EC, it would not be looking good for Danny

Now, that might be the epic meltdown you are referring to but it would be under those conditions in which he would lose his job

in other words, the worst case scenario......why not just say 'if the starting 5 all get hurt'?

I have every reason to believe that Irving will offer better chemistry than Thomas.....I'd be much more concerned for Thomas having chemistry with James\

Thomas was likely gone in a year anyway since I do not see him as a max contract guy

as for the draft pick, the C's still have 5 1st rounders in the next 2 years

they need to add another big guy, though

 

[Kdo5]

I don't think you comprehend what Danny has done.

Big money for Al.

Big money for Haywood.

The fact is he gave up a ton in collateral and team chemistry to swing this deal.

They are over the luxury tax.

He is rolling the dice to win now and next year.

Very similar to 07.

If Irving bolts in 2 years and they don't reach the Finals he will be fired.

He is rolling the dice to win now, next year and several years beyond that. You keep talking like it's a two season window to win when Kyrie is likely to stick long term. Obviously he feels like they have a good chance to extend Kyrie. I see no reason for Kyrie to bolt from Boston when he is the center piece on a contending team with a great coach.

Our chances of resigning Kyrie are much much greater than both getting a top 3 pick (again) and having that player wind up being a superstar.

Please tell me, do you think we could have been positioned to win a title during the IT window? I don't believe so. Jaylen/Tatum/BKN '18 will not be reaching their true potential before IT begins to slip.

So the players being traded are a wash to me. The issue is BKN '18. I didn't want to trade it but it's definitely not some fireable offense when you are receiving a young, proven superstar in return who has room to develop his game more under a real coach.

It cannot be said enough that BKN '18 is more likely to yield #3/4/5 than #1/2.

We are contending for a finals appearance and our position will only get better in the years moving forward IMO.

As far as chemistry? Yes the 2016 Celts had great chemistry and where did that get us? Dominated in the ECF. A very respectable season but far from enough.

Why can't this new team (which is very different from 2016) develop its own decent chemistry?

 

[RobertWeathers]

in other words, the worst case scenario......why not just say 'if the starting 5 all get hurt'?

I have every reason to believe that Irving will offer better chemistry than Thomas.....I'd be much more concerned for Thomas having chemistry with James\

Thomas was likely gone in a year anyway since I do not see him as a max contract guy

as for the draft pick, the C's still have 5 1st rounders in the next 2 years

they need to add another big guy, though

Its not the same. Injuries are injuries. I'm talking about contracts, luxury tax and how this new Big 3 will figure out how to play together. Irving has stated he wants to be the top dawg. What do Haywood and Horford think about that?

I don't know Irving enough to say he will or won't offer better chemistry than IT. With that said the chem w/ IT here was very good.

I think the deal is a risk for both sides. IT may leave CLE or not be as good, Jae and the Euro are throw-ins and the BKY pick is what it is...a pick.

We know KI will produce and play well. We just don't know for how long and how well he will the others.

 

[Ring 6]

I like the deal and the whole off season so far.
The celtics weren't going anywhere as they were constructed so they blew it up. They brought in 2 great players and added a high pick to last years high pick.
They have a chance to grow the team into a nucleus of Irving, Tatum, heyward and brown that could be together a long time. Hopefully horford fits better with this group.

Im not convinced the Brooklyn pick was as valuable as others believe.

 

[IllegalContact]

Its not the same. Injuries are injuries. I'm talking about contracts, luxury tax and how this new Big 3 will figure out how to play together. Irving has stated he wants to be the top dawg. What do Haywood and Horford think about that?

I don't know Irving enough to say he will or won't offer better chemistry than IT. With that said the chem w/ IT here was very good.

I think the deal is a risk for both sides. IT may leave CLE or not be as good, Jae and the Euro are throw-ins and the BKY pick is what it is...a pick.

We know KI will produce and play well. We just don't know for how long and how well he will the others.

I don't believe the Celtics had any plans in giving IT a max contract so you may want to start with that......I wouldn't .... he's a fun guy to watch but his limitations are too big

 

[IllegalContact]

I like the deal and the whole off season so far.
The celtics weren't going anywhere as they were constructed so they blew it up. They brought in 2 great players and added a high pick to last years high pick.
They have a chance to grow the team into a nucleus of Irving, Tatum, heyward and brown that could be together a long time. Hopefully horford fits better with this group.

Im not convinced the Brooklyn pick was as valuable as others believe.

yes......considering they have 5 1st rounders in the next 2 years and are already relatively young.........

 

[primetime]

I'm leery that Irving will work well on a team without LeBron. He's an exceptional scorer but not a good distributor and I'm not sure he can run an offense. The Celtics will want to get the ball into Hayward's hands and I don't know if he's the guy for that. Then again, he has a slight advantage in assist/turnover ratio to IT and is a slightly better defender.

As for Cleveland, there will be a lot of expirings available at the deadline for the Cavs to pluck with that Nets pick to try to make a run and get LeBron to stick around. Boogie, Brook Lopez, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Derrick Favors... some of those guys will be out of playoff contention by that point.

 

[50-yard-line]

Matchups matter.

As for Thomas v. Irving, I can see the logic behind making an even swap, and the logic behind refusing an even swap. I can even see the logic behind tossing in the guys needed to even the money, as part of the gamble that the younger Irving will sign and will fit the team. But, when you toss in the Brooklyn pick, it becomes a terrible deal.

And if this deal was heading in the other direction, the same people who are praising it now would be laughing their asses off at Cleveland.

You have control over Thomas for one year - then he'll want max and the C's won't pay it. One year, and one in which he might not even be starting the season with that hip injury. The C's weren't beating GSW this year with IT. Then what? if they had kept him and the Brooklyn pick fell to 5+...

Vs. 2/3 years of Irving, who will be worth a max contract afterwards and will just be coming into his best years as the C's kids start to grow up.

If they can't extend KI, then it's not a good deal. If they can, good deal - with the possible (admittedly) exception of him not fitting in.

I watched KI tear the C's apart last year, as usual. Thomas couldn't keep up with that, especially on a lame hip.

 

[Bill Lee]

Well, I outlined the reasons why this is a very risky deal for Danny and the Celtics. If they (1) do not get past CLE, (2) if KI walks and (3) if the chemistry is awful and (4) with the team being over the luxury tax without (5) winning the EC, it would not be looking good for Danny

Right, so five things all have to go the wrong way for things to not be looking good for Danny, which means his job is not under much threat at all.

One by one:

1): I don't think the expectation is that BOS will get past CLE till LeBron leaves, with or without Kyrie. LeBron is that good. If we happen to get past CLE with LBJ, more the better. However CLE is telegraphing a rebuild by trading two years+ of Kyrie for one of IT4 at a low salary along with a high draft pick, so CLE seems to be on the way down just as we seem to be on the way up. A big turnaround could happen for CLE if they trade the BKN pick for a superstar and hope that it makes LBJ want to stay, but it doesn't seem many teams would be interested in sending a superstar to CLE, and it seems LBJ is already packing his bags for LA.

2): It's definitely a much better scenario for Danny if KI stays long term, but in the end, that's up to KI and Danny can say "I took a shot and KI just didn't want to stay".

3): This is more of a risk to Danny and Brad in my book because bad chemistry can make the whole team suck quickly and heavily, a true 'poison the well' risk being taken here.

4): The owner is signing off on the deals so he'll deal with the tax. I have a hard time seeing Wyc sending Danny packing, except under extreme duress.

5): Winning the EC is within reach when LeBron leaves CLE, and I'm all in on him going to LAL in the off season. If not, then Danny has yet another get out of jail free card to play -- "LBJ stayed, who knew?"...

Now, that might be the epic meltdown you are referring to but it would be under those conditions in which he would lose his job

My epic meltdown involves all of the above going badly, plus the recent high draft picks and the upcoming ones missing badly. A streak of bad drafting when you hold so many high draft picks will put any GM's job at high risk regardless of the relationship with ownership and the track record.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

i don't follow basketball. is irving better than thomas?

 

[qbno12]

Celtics lost a leader in IT. Sad to see him go. Fans embraced him. Kyrie Irving is an excellent player but lacks leaderships skills and wants to be the "main" guy on the team.

Here's wishing IT the best and hoping Brad Stevens will build a terrific team with current roster.

 

[qbno12]

i don't follow basketball. is irving better than thomas?

They are very similar if you want to compare numbers and similar in that they both take over the game. Kyrie took over a game or kept Cleveland in the game many a times even with Lebron on that team. He is also younger than IT

 

[primetime]

i don't follow basketball. is irving better than thomas?

Yes, but not by much. Irving's a marginally better scorer (both are very, very good), a little less prone to turnovers but still not much of a distributor, and a better defender (but this isn't saying much, he's still a liability).

But he's younger (and that's not to be underestimated since IT's game relies on athleticism) and there's an argument to be made that he needed to be out from under LeBron's shadow to continue his development, as LeBron effectively worked as the point guard for the Cavs and Irving's position was more of a combo-guard.

On the other hand, there's also an argument to be made that he's not an effective primary ballhandler or floor general and running the offense through LeBron allowed him to focus on scoring and covered for some of his deficiencies defending the perimeter, and he won't have either luxury on the Celtics.

 

[Kdo5]

Celtics lost a leader in IT. Sad to see him go. Fans embraced him. Kyrie Irving is an excellent player but lacks leaderships skills and wants to be the "main" guy on the team.

Here's wishing IT the best and hoping Brad Stevens will build a terrific team with current roster.

I keep seeing this said but I'm not sure I buy it. I have never once heard that Kyrie lacks leadership, that he is a bad teammate or a hinderence to team chemistry.

I think it really is as simple as Kyrie has won it all while being in LeBron's shadow. Now he wants to be the focal point in winning a title. Given the large egos of NBA superstars this isn't all that surprising. They all have it.

 

[qbno12]

I keep seeing this said but I'm not sure I buy it. I have never once heard that Kyrie lacks leadership, that he is a bad teammate or a hinderence to team chemistry.

I think it really is as simple as Kyrie has won it all while being in LeBron's shadow. Now he wants to be the focal point in winning a title. Given the large egos of NBA superstars this isn't all that surprising. They all have it.

I must admit I have never really seen him raise any concerns during the season. My statement was based on articles I read on why he wanted out of Cleveland. He's carried that team many times and I can understand why he wanted out.
Hopefully things change for better here.

 

[borg]

What we know:

-Rondo had his way with IT
-The Wizards' guards scored at will with IT on the floor
-Irving scored at will over IT
-IT was futile vs Irving

And now the enigma that is IT is Cleveland's problem...and playoff match ups will continue to be an issue.

Regarding the value of assists:

-It's 2017 and the era of hitting the slasher driving to the hoop for 2 has been replaced by volume 3 point shooting. Delicate /precise passing skills are no longer in vogue. The new NBA is an up tempo guard driven league that requires high volume scoring from their PGs. Look at the playoff survivors.
-Like Cleveland's offense that goes through James, Boston's offense more often than not goes through Horford at the top of the key. People needing high assist totals from a Boston PG don't understand Stevens' offense.

Furthermore:

-For those lamenting the loss of the Brooklyn pick (me), this trade would never have occured without its inclusion. Be happy that Boston didn't give Cleveland a choice of the Brooklyn pick or LA's next year.
-Though Boston will miss the quality of Crowder and Bradley, they were never championship pieces IMO. Boston has moved on from quantity to quality. Unfortunately, quality requires excess dollars and Boston has reentered restrictive cap territory and some moves will be painful

My wish now:

A veteran shooter

 

[BlacknGold77]

What we know:

-Rondo had his way with IT
-The Wizards' guards scored at will with IT on the floor
-Irving scored at will over IT
-IT was futile vs Irving

And now the enigma that is IT is Cleveland's problem...and playoff match ups will continue to be an issue.

Regarding the value of assists:

-It's 2017 and the era of hitting the slasher driving to the hoop for 2 has been replaced by volume 3 point shooting. Delicate /precise passing skills are no longer in vogue. The new NBA is an up tempo guard driven league that requires high volume scoring from their PGs. Look at the playoff survivors.
-Like Cleveland's offense that goes through James, Boston's offense more often than not goes through Horford at the top of the key. People needing high assist totals from a Boston PG don't understand Stevens' offense.

Furthermore:

-For those lamenting the loss of the Brooklyn pick (me), this trade would never have occured without its inclusion. Be happy that Boston didn't give Cleveland a choice of the Brooklyn pick or LA's next year.
-Though Boston will miss the quality of Crowder and Bradley, they were never championship pieces IMO. Boston has moved on from quantity to quality. Unfortunately, quality requires excess dollars and Boston has reentered restrictive cap territory and some moves will be painful

My wish now:

A veteran shooter

even then, Thomas and Irving are equals when it comes to assists.

Thomas averaged 5.9 apg last year
Irving averaged 5.8 apg last year

Yes, Thomas didnt have a Lebron to feed...but Irving didnt have an offense based on him having the ball and creating him like Thomas did.

For their careers its 5.5 apg for Irving and 5.2 apg for Thomas.

and while I like Crowder as a role player, I dont like him blocking a spot from Tatum/Brown