Bill's walking a dangerous line with DT, DB depth

[DocHoliday]

I also would like to see Moore back as depth.

He'll always have a place in my heart for that AFCCG.

Edit: and by all accounts he's had a great TC and preseason for the Cowgirls, ranking as a solid CB3/4

 

[Oswlek]

Yes and we saw how great our secondary looked before we added Talib last year.

And we all saw how great our defense looked when Talib went down and had Cole starting. You want that PLUS possibility of Dennard not playing and having an even worse player starting as well?

I for one, would not like to see that for an stretch of the season.

Who would? Not Belichick, who went out and supplemented the secondary with two relatively high picks, pushing Cole one slot down the CB chart and hopefully adding another viable S who can come in.

FWIW, would you have said that SF was walking a dangerous line with their DL depth last year? Because they went from a top 3 defense to one that allowed 28.5 ppg one the heels of just one injury, with only a God awful Zona team not putting at least 24 on the board.

 

[hwc]

If one of those two go down, in a 43 we're starting some practice squad guy next to Wilfork (and that's completely ignoring when we have to take Wilfork out for a breather and we'll have two guys who have no business on the field trying to stop the run).

In the National Football League, in 2013, trying to "stop the run" is just an occasional sub package.

I know that, one of the challenges I've had as a Pats fan, is realizing that the NFL is a different game now, like fast-break basketball. The things that we came to love about hard-nosed Belichick defenses are antiquated and no longer relevant. I'm not even sure that "defense" in today's NFL has any meaning beyond trying to slow them down, hope they make a mistake, and get the occasional stop in the red zone.

I don't like it, but it is what it is. My sense is that Belichick and Ernie Adams are trying to adjust their philosophies to the new NFL. As a fan, it's really hard to evaluate their roster moves through my old-fashioned glasses. I don't really know what they are trying to accomplish.

 

[tonyto3690]

Who would? Not Belichick, who went out and supplemented the secondary with two relatively high picks, pushing Cole one slot down the CB chart and hopefully adding another viable S who can come in.

FWIW, would you have said that SF was walking a dangerous line with their DL depth last year? Because they went from a top 3 defense to one that allowed 28.5 ppg one the heels of just one injury, with only a God awful Zona team not putting at least 24 on the board.

Yes there were walking a dangerous line, and they paid for it. Justin got hurt and their defense was not the same after that. If he were healthy and the defense played at the level it did through most of the season, there is no way they lose to the Niners.

Between Justin and McDonald, the Niners had two guys in the top 5 DL snaps played IIRC and again, it backfired on them.

I'm not sure why you bring this up, because it only proves my point.

 

[tonyto3690]

In the National Football League, in 2013, trying to "stop the run" is just an occasional sub package.

No. That is completely untrue. By your logic, the Bills and Lions defense should have been the best in the NFL since they have four pure pass rushers on the DL. That is just not how it works. The NFL has become more pass heavy, but if you can't stop the run, teams will just attack that and kill the clock.

 

[Oswlek]

Yes there were walking a dangerous line, and they paid for it. Justin got hurt and their defense was not the same after that. If he were healthy and the defense played at the level it did through most of the season, there is no way they lose to the Niners.

Between Justin and McDonald, the Niners had two guys in the top 5 DL snaps played IIRC and again, it backfired on them.

I'm not sure why you bring this up, because it only proves my point.

I brought it up because you never in a million years would have said so beforehand.

 

[JR4]

A
.....
But if Dennard misses even one game, we are stuck with Talib (and lets all pray he manages to stay healthy) and Arrington.

What if Dennard misses 4 games and Talib pulls a hammy? Our #1 CB is Arrington going up against Andre Johnson/D. Thomas.

....

Mr Doom and Gloom,

What if any team has both starting CBs go down? Do you really think their
3 and 4 just step in and all is OK? Cmon? be real.
You say you don't expect all pros at all positions even at backup
positions but you sure come across that way.

 

[Ring 6]

Going to the Superbowl and winning the Superbowl are two very different things ken. The Superbowl winning Defenses were far more talented and deeper than any Patriots Defense in recent memory.

Rebuild, re-tool or whatever you want to call it, but BB has fluffed a lot of defensive picks in the past 5 or so years. FTR, yes, yes I know he also hits a lot.

The defense that lost the SB in 2011 probably had a better day that the ones that won in 01,03 and 04.

 

[JackBauer]

But if Dennard misses even one game, we are stuck with Talib (and lets all pray he manages to stay healthy) and Arrington. And then what? Green? Cole? You really want those bums on the field playing significant snaps?

Um, Logan Ryan?

 

[JackBauer]

I would also suggest not sleeping on AJ Francis.

How can we keep AJ Francis?

 

[Fencer]

Cmon Tony, I hope you aren't becoming one of those fans who demands an all pro at every position in order to be happy. How quickly you forget that the when the Pats went to the superbowl in 011, Deadrick and Love (an UDFA and 7th round rookie) were the #2 and #3 DT'

The Pats are probably better situated with Kelly and Wilfolk at DT/NT than they have been since Warren and Seymour were in town. Don't forget that beyond all the young kids, Armstead IS coming back thiss year. Another thing to factor in, is (if preseason is any indication) the Pats might be running more 3-4 this season, which requires one less DLman.

Its fair to say the DT's is an area where EXPERIENCED depth is a question, but thinking BB's
"walking a dangerous line" smacks of hyperbole

Not your best post, Ken.

First, there's no assurance Armstead will contribute this year. They guy has never taken even a practice snap in the NFL.

Second, unless Ninkovich lines up as a 3-4 DE, there difference between 3-4 and 4-3 doesn't have much bearing on the personnel required.

 

[Oswlek]

The defense that lost the SB in 2011 probably had a better day that the ones that won in 01,03 and 04.

Hey now! I think that unit gets a bad rep, but I wouldn't go that far, for 2001 and 2004, anyway.

Not your best post, Ken.

First, there's no assurance Armstead will contribute this year. They guy has never taken even a practice snap in the NFL.

Ken overstates the point, but I see no harm in pointing out that NE has a 2nd round caliber youngster on NFI who was dominant in a league between the NCAA and NFL. Yes, it is entirely possible he does nothing this year. Or ever. But it isn't like NE's recent backup DTs were anything to write home about.

Said another way, I feel pretty comfortable stating that NE's #4-5 receivers this year will outperform Deion Branch and Greg Salas, even though they are rookies.

Not counting on a guy doesn't mean you throw your hands up in the air and pretend he doesn't even exist.

 

[Wrath Mania]

I do think anyone trying to talk up the Rutgers slop backing up this secondary is a bit deluded. Even if you want to grasp at straws and pretend somehow the depth is okay, I think the greater point is that, while it seems this team has a pretty decent front seven, this secondary is basically the same weak group it was last year. The failure of the Adrian Wilson signing means that we're banking on the same pieces from last year to work better.

In theory I trust Talib, Dennard and Arrington, but the moment when Talib inevitably pulls his hamstring and is out for the second-half against Atlanta will throw a wrench into everything. Arrington is awful outside and all other CBs beneath these three are basically tantamount to putting scarecrows out on the field. In addition to the likelihood of Talib being out at some point in the year, the Patriots also must have some reason to think Dennard isn't going to miss time for his legal affairs; or at least, we better hope they have some reason to think that, because if you lose Dennard then what happens? In the event either Talib or Dennard are lost it's likely McCourty gets shifted back to CB. This was a disaster in the last AFC title game.

It's interesting that the true value of Talib is highly debated by everyone: people like Bedard or the folks at Football Outsiders don't rank him very highly. Yet his presence overall vastly improves the defense, and that must be because he allows McCourty to be at safety. The moment McCourty returns to CB, the defense basically reverts back to vintage 2011 form (Oh God). I am not sure if this because McCourty is a much better S than CB: I think it's really because all the other safeties on this team are garbage. Steven Gregory is kinda incompetent and Tavon Wilson is proving to be the reach we all feared he was going to be. It is just really hard to believe how poor a job BB has done with developing a secondary. Hopefully this defense has a good pass rush this year (and I think it might?), cause all it takes is one injury in this secondary for the whole thing to implode.

I don't think I'm being a pessimistic LOLOLOL or chicken little or whatever dumb names are out there. I'm just being realistic.

 

[DarrylS]

I do think anyone trying to talk up the Rutgers slop backing up this secondary is a bit deluded. Even if you want to grasp at straws and pretend somehow the depth is okay, I think the greater point is that, while it seems this team has a pretty decent front seven, this secondary is basically the same weak group it was last year. The failure of the Adrian Wilson signing means that we're banking on the same pieces from last year to work better.

In theory I trust Talib, Dennard and Arrington, but the moment when Talib inevitably pulls his hamstring and is out for the second-half against Atlanta will throw a wrench into everything. Arrington is awful outside and all other CBs beneath these three are basically tantamount to putting scarecrows out on the field. In addition to the likelihood of Talib being out at some point in the year, the Patriots also must have some reason to think Dennard isn't going to miss time for his legal affairs; or at least, we better hope they have some reason to think that, because if you lose Dennard then what happens? In the event either Talib or Dennard it's likely McCourty gets shifted back to CB. This was a disaster in the last AFC title game.

It's interesting that the true value of Talib his highly debated by everyone: people like Bedard or the folks at Football Outsiders don't rank him very highly. Yet his presence overall vastly improves the defense, and that must be because he allows McCourty to be at safety. The moment McCourty returns to CB, the defense basically reverts back to vintage 2011 form (Oh God). I am not sure if this because McCourty is a much better S than CB: I think it's really because all the other safeties on this team are garbage. Steven Gregory is kinda incompetent and Tavon Wilson is proving to be the reach we all feared he was going to be. It is just really hard to believe how poor a job BB has done with developing a secondary. Hopefully this defense has a good pass rush this year (and I think it might?), cause all it takes is one injury in this secondary for the whole thing to implode.

At one point last year our Defensive Backfield totaled less than 5 years experience, with no leadership on the field.

These guys have matured a year, and have played together for a while now.. that alone should help improve this group.

As much as people whine and bytch, every team has weakness and depth issues in the salary cap era...

If your Defensive Ends are healthy, and our linebacking corps is better will our d backfield be better?? Of course...

There is always some illusion that BB makes all these decisions randomly and without purpose, however what we see and what he sees are two different things..

The glass is half full folks...

 

[Oswlek]

I do think anyone trying to talk up the Rutgers slop backing up this secondary is a bit deluded.

If you are referring to my posts, I am not doing this at all. I simply pointed out that NE is up one quasi-useable CB from last year's team, and have - at worst - traded one useless S for another.

Even if both players are completely hopeless, the depth is no worse than last year.

 

[tonyto3690]

Mr Doom and Gloom,

What if any team has both starting CBs go down? Do you really think their
3 and 4 just step in and all is OK? Cmon? be real.
You say you don't expect all pros at all positions even at backup
positions but you sure come across that way.

Except....

1. We know Dennard is going to miss time due to legal issues.
2. We know Talib has missed 14 games over the pass three years (not including the Ravens game)

There is a difference between saying things like "BUT WHAT IF BRADY GETS HURT" - when Brady has proven he is an ironman and has no signs of injury, and being nervous about DB depth when we know almost definitely our top two CBs are going to miss time at some point in the season.

Furthermore, as for DTs, just by the nature of the position we know Wilfork and Kelly will have to sit at some point. It's 100% impossible for them to play every snap of every game. Who is going to be subbing in for them for 30% of snaps (EACH)? Scrubster McSuperscrub? Heaven forbid one of them actually gets hurt and they have to miss an entire game.

 

[JackBauer]

I do think anyone trying to talk up the Rutgers slop backing up this secondary is a bit deluded. Even if you want to grasp at straws and pretend somehow the depth is okay, I think the greater point is that, while it seems this team has a pretty decent front seven, this secondary is basically the same weak group it was last year. The failure of the Adrian Wilson signing means that we're banking on the same pieces from last year to work better.

In theory I trust Talib, Dennard and Arrington, but the moment when Talib inevitably pulls his hamstring and is out for the second-half against Atlanta will throw a wrench into everything. Arrington is awful outside and all other CBs beneath these three are basically tantamount to putting scarecrows out on the field. In addition to the likelihood of Talib being out at some point in the year, the Patriots also must have some reason to think Dennard isn't going to miss time for his legal affairs; or at least, we better hope they have some reason to think that, because if you lose Dennard then what happens? In the event either Talib or Dennard are lost it's likely McCourty gets shifted back to CB. This was a disaster in the last AFC title game.

It's interesting that the true value of Talib is highly debated by everyone: people like Bedard or the folks at Football Outsiders don't rank him very highly. Yet his presence overall vastly improves the defense, and that must be because he allows McCourty to be at safety. The moment McCourty returns to CB, the defense basically reverts back to vintage 2011 form (Oh God). I am not sure if this because McCourty is a much better S than CB: I think it's really because all the other safeties on this team are garbage. Steven Gregory is kinda incompetent and Tavon Wilson is proving to be the reach we all feared he was going to be. It is just really hard to believe how poor a job BB has done with developing a secondary. Hopefully this defense has a good pass rush this year (and I think it might?), cause all it takes is one injury in this secondary for the whole thing to implode.

I don't think I'm being a pessimistic LOLOLOL or chicken little or whatever dumb names are out there. I'm just being realistic.

Essentially what you're saying is that last year's secondary + two third round picks = last year's secondary. That seems silly to me.

 

[JackBauer]

Furthermore, as for DTs, just by the nature of the position we know Wilfork and Kelly will have to sit at some point. It's 100% impossible for them to play every snap of every game. Who is going to be subbing in for them for 30% of snaps (EACH)? Scrubster McSuperscrub? Heaven forbid one of them actually gets hurt and they have to miss an entire game.

Is it theoretically possible the players BB has chosen to back up at DT are actually decent players?

 

[supafly]

Except....

1. We know Dennard is going to miss time due to legal issues.
2. We know Talib has missed 14 games over the pass three years (not including the Ravens game)

Actually, Talib has yet to finish out a season in his 5 yr career. His chronic hamstring and hip issues are certainly something that bears watching.

Dennard hopefully can get by with only missing a handful of games due to his legal troubles and possible small suspension--assuming his health of course.

 

[supafly]

Scrubster McSuperscrub

Even though he didn't receive an invite to the combine this year, Scrubster McSuperscrub has good measurables and is poised to be yet another one of Belichick's UDFA accomplishments.