Bill's walking a dangerous line with DT, DB depth

[ATippett56]

Is it theoretically possible the players BB has chosen to back up at DT are actually decent players?

Fear of the unknown or unproven.

 

[Oswlek]

Except....

1. We know Dennard is going to miss time due to legal issues.
2. We know Talib has missed 14 games over the pass three years (not including the Ravens game)

There is a difference between saying things like "BUT WHAT IF BRADY GETS HURT" - when Brady has proven he is an ironman and has no signs of injury, and being nervous about DB depth when we know almost definitely our top two CBs are going to miss time at some point in the season.

Furthermore, as for DTs, just by the nature of the position we know Wilfork and Kelly will have to sit at some point. It's 100% impossible for them to play every snap of every game. Who is going to be subbing in for them for 30% of snaps (EACH)? Scrubster McSuperscrub? Heaven forbid one of them actually gets hurt and they have to miss an entire game.

And how did you feel last year when NE started with only three DTs on the roster?

Would you feel better if Armstead was an actual 2nd rounder instead of a FA because he had to go through Canada first?

Would Forston making the team lift your spirits since you've heard of him?

NE had a pretty solid plan for DT this offseason. Wilfork/Love as the immovable heavies, Kelly/Armstead as the sub guys with Kelly having the versatility to play both, Deaderick/Forston as the #5 plus the DEs who could slide inside on smaller packages.

Instead, life threw them a curve with Love's illness, Armstead's infection and whatever the hell Deaderick did to warrant his abrupt release. If happens.

If all you said is, "I'm worried about the DT depth" you wouldn't have gotten much of an argument from anyone. It is the hyperbolic "Bill is on a tightrope!" nonsense that sends your posts awry.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

Relax! Cole is back! I agreed with your concern.

BB knows what he is doing. I'm not worried.

 

[patriot lifer]

There are always positions that we can say are thin or severely lack reliability. Last year for example,

1) Running back

- Ridley was unproven and had fumbled a couple times the last time we saw him in 2011.
- BJGE was gone
- Vereen showed us nothing to make us think he could even play
- Woodhead was the most proven but wasn't an every down back
- Bolden was a complete unknown and a rookie

2) Defensive Tackle

- We had 3 serviceable players (Vince Wilfork, Deaderick, and Love)

3) Wide Receiver (Excluding Slot)

- We just had Lloyd who wasn't the best fit.
- Branch could never get open

We can also talk secondary last year, but I just wanted to give examples for consideration in the current year. Our secondary is better than the prior two years personnel-wise, and we were ranked #9 in points per game. If we do better than that this year, then splendid.

We'll see how good the team is in the next few weeks. I'm also concerned about general DT and DE depth at this point but it's hard to predict what BB and company have in mind.

In the prior year,
DL -we carried only 3 DT's but 6 DE's (that's SIX players for 2 spots on the roster).
LB -For playable linebackers on defense, we basically just had the big 3 (Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower) with White as a primary ST player.

In the current year, we have far fewer DE's and much more linebackers. Every year is a different design.

 

[hwc]

No. That is completely untrue. By your logic, the Bills and Lions defense should have been the best in the NFL since they have four pure pass rushers on the DL. That is just not how it works. The NFL has become more pass heavy, but if you can't stop the run, teams will just attack that and kill the clock.

I never said that having the best "pure pass rushers" is a winning formula in today's NFL. Just the opposite, I think the speed and complexity of the better NFL offenses tends to nullify a pass rush. I don't actually think there is a way to shut down the top passing offenses with rules that prohibit playing physical pass defense. I think it's quite possilble that the strategy has to be limit the damage on defense and build a passing offense that can regularly score 30+ points.

 

[ausbacker]

The defense that lost the SB in 2011 probably had a better day that the ones that won in 01,03 and 04.

The 2011 Defense wasn't playing the 2001 Rams. That's a further indictment on how poor Patriots Defenses have become.

 

[Wrath Mania]

At one point last year our Defensive Backfield totaled less than 5 years experience, with no leadership on the field.

These guys have matured a year, and have played together for a while now.. that alone should help improve this group.

As much as people whine and bytch, every team has weakness and depth issues in the salary cap era...

If your Defensive Ends are healthy, and our linebacking corps is better will our d backfield be better?? Of course...

There is always some illusion that BB makes all these decisions randomly and without purpose, however what we see and what he sees are two different things..

The glass is half full folks...

Lot of empty platitudes being thrown around in this post.

No one questions the obvious- that this group has had a year more of experience together. This seems to be a simple acknowledgment of time. It is debatable whether this really makes them any better (I am not sure what buzzwords like leadership have anything to do with this). Some of them will probably be better. Tavon Wilson clearly is worse, nor is Gregory getting any better. I'm supposed to think last year's secondary, with all its problems, is magically going to be better because of nebulous words like 'leadership' and 'maturity'. Oh, and because they added two third-round unknowns. Great. Wonderful.

And I think we're all aware that this is the salary cap era. The salary cap isn't the reason why the New England secondary has ranged from mediocre to bad the past few years. It sucks because of lousy drafting and signings, plain and simple. Money or not, the right decisions can still put out a better product than this. BB knows what he's doing, but he isn't omnipotent either.

 

[Brady6]

Is it theoretically possible the players BB has chosen to back up at DT are actually decent players?

I think the pairing of 2 young defensive tackles that were productive playing side by side in college for the last 4 years is going to be a substantial improvement over Deaderick and Love. Both Vellano and Francis had better college statistics than their predecessors and they both offer a higher motor as well, particularly Vellano who is a non-stop type guy that we haven’t had on our defensive line since Mike Wright.

Vellano| Francis

Total tackles – 219| 149
Solo tackles – 105| 61
Tackles for loss – 32| 20.5
Sacks – 13.5| 9.5

They also showed improvements over their tenure together, in their senior season they combined for 104 total tackles, 50 solo tackles, 23 tackles for loss, and 10 sacks. In addition their measurable statistics are stronger in most categories than Love or Deaderick.

I may be being optimistic but I am very excited about these 2 players, in particular A.J. Francis who was excellent during the preseason, and given that Vellano earned a starting nod in weeks 3 and 4 of the preseason for us he must of impressed as the coaches here.

 

[supafly]

I'm supposed to think last year's secondary, with all its problems, is magically going to be better because of nebulous words like 'leadership' and 'maturity'. Oh, and because they added two third-round unknowns. Great. Wonderful.

How about the fact alone that Talib, Dennard, McCourty, and Arrington are all playing in their best and 'true' positions from day one would point to things being in better shape? The concern lies in the depth of course, and I agree that the addition of a couple more draft picks isn't going to put anyone's mind at ease until we see it take place on the field.

And I think we're all aware that this is the salary cap era. The salary cap isn't the reason why the New England secondary has ranged from mediocre to bad the past few years. It sucks because of lousy drafting and signings, plain and simple. Money or not, the right decisions can still put out a better product than this. BB knows what he's doing, but he isn't omnipotent either.

That's a very fair point. I would agree that the poor drafting/scouting in the secondary is definitely the main point of why they always have to deal with this issue lately. That said, the salary cap certainly does come into play in some of the decisions via trying to improve it, as we can't just go out and sign anyone who is deemed "good."

I am slightly disappointed that another CB was not signed in this buyer's market this year. That would have been much better than the present, but I also agree with the thoughts from DarrylS regarding our secondary being in a much better position than in the past. While it should be considered to be in "better" shape for sure, the concerns are still going to be there until the depth is proven and/or draft picks work out.

 

[Brady6]

Fear of the unknown or unproven.

I think that is something that we will always have on some level on a team. Realistically we have the best NT to play in the NFL over the past decade, and one of the top 3Tech DT’s to play over the past decade, so what we lack for experience in are backups we make up for with are starters. Wilfork played 901 snaps and Kelly played 776 snaps last season, both are in their early 30s so yes you’d probably like to cut back slightly, however not drastic enough that we will be running Vellano and Francis out there a lot, and if we were to be hit by an injury we would probably look to bring in a veteran that is on the free agent market.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Absolutely not. I am the one to roast people who complain and have such ridiculously high demands.

But if Dennard misses even one game, we are stuck with Talib (and lets all pray he manages to stay healthy) and Arrington. And then what? Green? Cole? You really want those bums on the field playing significant snaps?

What if Dennard misses 4 games and Talib pulls a hammy? Our #1 CB is Arrington going up against Andre Johnson/D. Thomas.

It doesn't matter if we run a 34 or 43. Tommy and Wilfork are the only guys capable of playing 5tech unless you count Chandler and that's a stretch.

If one of those two go down, in a 43 we're starting some practice squad guy next to Wilfork (and that's completely ignoring when we have to take Wilfork out for a breather and we'll have two guys who have no business on the field trying to stop the run). In a 34 if one of those goes down we have one NT and no DEs.

Running a 34 would require MORE DT/5techs NOT less.


If any of Wilfork/Kelly/Dennard/McCourty/Talib miss anymore than 2 games, we are in serious trouble. If 2 or more of them miss any one game (and it's against a not completely inept team ie. the Jets), we are completely cooked.

Ridiculous Fears!!!

You sound like one of the Greenie Doomsters screaming how if the temperature goes up half a degree, the Earth will be uninhabitable. Even though it does ten times that, every day, between sunrise and Noon.

Don't you realize that is EXACTLY what we did the last two years? Love our UDFA, couldn't even make the Jaguars, and he was the "regular" UDFA scrub who started. Deadrick was the lesser scrub, who came into give each of them a blow. It was't for 2 games, it was for 16 plus.

In the secondary, rookie Tavon beat out Chung; Cole played... and he did so a lot. The Patriots still went 12-4 or better. If Tavon is so bad, how poor was Chung? or Moore? Ryan and Duron seem miles ahead of whoever occupied those slots last season.

 

[Oswlek]

Lot of empty platitudes being thrown around in this post.

No one questions the obvious- that this group has had a year more of experience together. This seems to be a simple acknowledgment of time. It is debatable whether this really makes them any better (I am not sure what buzzwords like leadership have anything to do with this). Some of them will probably be better. Tavon Wilson clearly is worse, nor is Gregory getting any better. I'm supposed to think last year's secondary, with all its problems, is magically going to be better because of nebulous words like 'leadership' and 'maturity'. Oh, and because they added two third-round unknowns. Great. Wonderful.

And I think we're all aware that this is the salary cap era. The salary cap isn't the reason why the New England secondary has ranged from mediocre to bad the past few years. It sucks because of lousy drafting and signings, plain and simple. Money or not, the right decisions can still put out a better product than this. BB knows what he's doing, but he isn't omnipotent either.

I'm not sure it is entirely empty. Heading into 2012, Devin was still considered a CB and hadn't had a single offseason dedicated to what ended up as his full-time position. Talib was a midseason aquisition who didn't have experience in the system. Dennard was a rookie (which, if you consider NE's sophomore CB track record uninspiring, then you must be psyched about Logan Ryan's chances!)

So, yes, there were some experience and cohesive issues that could be addressed this season.

I have no qualms at all about pointing out the drafting issues, I just think it is disingenuous when fans phrase it as if it is an ongoing issue. The truth is, after hitting a nadir from 2006-2009, NE's drafting has been amongst the best in the league and even in the secondary is no worse than average. The problem is that draft classes from 4-7 years ago tend to have exaggerated effects on the team, since those players are hitting their peak abilities and scheme understanding, and this perfectly correlates with NE's worst period.

Considering the improved drafting since 2010, that should be a cause for optimism for what the team will look like in 2-3 years. :rocker:

 

[Kontradiction]

I haven't read the entire thread but, from where we currently stand, the defense is really top-heavy. Within the starting unit, the only two true weaknesses I see are SS and coverage limitations within the starting LB corps. But, after that, the depth at DT, CB, and S is really thin and/or untested. There are still some solid options out there as far as depth goes within the three positions mentioned. I'd have to think that there are at least a couple of signings coming. Either that, or Belichick is expecting perfect health across the board throughout the entire season (which, IMO, would be foolish).

 

[Oswlek]

I haven't read the entire thread but, from where we currently stand, the defense is really top-heavy. Within the starting unit, the only two true weaknesses I see are SS and coverage limitations within the starting LB corps. But, after that, the depth at DT, CB, and S is really thin and/or untested. There are still some solid options out there as far as depth goes within the three positions mentioned. I'd have to think that there are at least a couple of signings coming. Either that, or Belichick is expecting perfect health across the board throughout the entire season (which, IMO, would be foolish).

Or he expects the unknowns to be productive if forced into action.

 

[Kontradiction]

Or he expects the unknowns to be productive if forced into action.

Maybe. We'll see. Ryan doesn't appear to be a good fit as an outside CB and both he and Harmon are coming from a very zone-heavy defensive backfield in Rutgers that, from what I saw, wasn't at all similar to the scheme the Patriots play. But that's why they're unknowns. They can either come in and play well or they can come in and suck. I'd prefer the team not to put so much pressure on the rookies, particularly with a defensive scheme that's as hard to get down as this one (Hightower just tweeted something about him finally understanding the playbook, after having been a starter last year).

 

[Oswlek]

Maybe. We'll see. Ryan doesn't appear to be a good fit as an outside CB and both he and Harmon are coming from a very zone-heavy defensive backfield in Rutgers that, from what I saw, wasn't at all similar to the scheme the Patriots play. But that's why they're unknowns. They can either come in and play well or they can come in and suck. I'd prefer the team not to put so much pressure on the rookies, particularly with a defensive scheme that's as hard to get down as this one (Hightower just tweeted something about him finally understanding the playbook, after having been a starter last year).

I thought Ryan got progressively better during the preseason. In the Philly game he was pretty poor, but by the Giant game he was one of the better DBs on the field. He looks like a legitimate contributor.

Harmon started promising and tailed off, so we'll see about him. But I liked his college tape more than what I was able to dig up from Tavon last year, so he should be an improvement over Ebner and Wilson.

This is the first season in a long time that virtually every starter is a multi-year NFL vet with at least one full season and offseason in the system. If all goes well, they'll be able to integrate a youngster better than they have lately.

 

[tonyto3690]

Ridiculous Fears!!!

You sound like one of the Greenie Doomsters screaming how if the temperature goes up half a degree, the Earth will be uninhabitable. Even though it does ten times that, every day, between sunrise and Noon.

Don't you realize that is EXACTLY what we did the last two years? Love our UDFA, couldn't even make the Jaguars, and he was the "regular" UDFA scrub who started. Deadrick was the lesser scrub, who came into give each of them a blow. It was't for 2 games, it was for 16 plus.

In the secondary, rookie Tavon beat out Chung; Cole played... and he did so a lot. The Patriots still went 12-4 or better. If Tavon is so bad, how poor was Chung? or Moore? Ryan and Duron seem miles ahead of whoever occupied those slots last season.

Love lost like 80 pounds this offseason. He is not the same player anymore.

Deaderick was a fourth string backup who lost playing time to Francis and Cunningham.

Rookie Tavon was terrible, even more terrible than Chung.

Cole played and he did not play a lot.


You apparently have not watched the Patriots much.

 

[tonyto3690]

And how did you feel last year when NE started with only three DTs on the roster?

Would you feel better if Armstead was an actual 2nd rounder instead of a FA because he had to go through Canada first?

Would Forston making the team lift your spirits since you've heard of him?

NE had a pretty solid plan for DT this offseason. Wilfork/Love as the immovable heavies, Kelly/Armstead as the sub guys with Kelly having the versatility to play both, Deaderick/Forston as the #5 plus the DEs who could slide inside on smaller packages.

Instead, life threw them a curve with Love's illness, Armstead's infection and whatever the hell Deaderick did to warrant his abrupt release. If happens.

If all you said is, "I'm worried about the DT depth" you wouldn't have gotten much of an argument from anyone. It is the hyperbolic "Bill is on a tightrope!" nonsense that sends your posts awry.

So what you're saying is you're completely caught up in semantics and have nothing to offer except that you agree with me.

 

[Oswlek]

So what you're saying is you're completely caught up in semantics and have nothing to offer except that you agree with me.

 

[JackBauer]

I thought Ryan got progressively better during the preseason. In the Philly game he was pretty poor, but by the Giant game he was one of the better DBs on the field. He looks like a legitimate contributor.

Harmon started promising and tailed off, so we'll see about him. But I liked his college tape more than what I was able to dig up from Tavon last year, so he should be an improvement over Ebner and Wilson.

This is the first season in a long time that virtually every starter is a multi-year NFL vet with at least one full season and offseason in the system. If all goes well, they'll be able to integrate a youngster better than they have lately.

FWIW Doug Kyed called Ryan the most improved player on the roster, though he seems to be rather bullish on the Holy Triumvirate (Ryan, Harmon, Beauharnais).