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Content Post Idle thoughts - a very quick set of impressions


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SlowGettingUp

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40 lbs lighter, he is 210 and our TEs are 250+. A move TE with that Combine 40 time? Never seen it. Any other ideas?

225 not 210:


He's apparently currently fast enough to play gunner on a kicking team and beat a double team. So he could certainly run a 15 yard seam route.
 

VJCPatriot

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LJH is as slow as molasses. Carolina was playing almost all zone. If there is man coverage, LJH is easily shut down - that is why he was sitting at home on a couch when we signed him. I agree, playing against backups in zone coverage, LJH looked good. Let's not forget the circumstances.
Correct. LJH ran a 4.75 40 at the combine. Carolina is also barely better than a JV NFL team.

However LJH made plays. You can only play against who you line up across from.

It's interesting to note that last year with the Saints, LJH averaged over 19 yards per catch with his 13 receptions.

For comparison Agholor whom the Patriots signed to be a stretch the field guy averaged only 12.8 yards per catch on 37 receptions.

There's no question that Agholor is way faster than LJH. But you can't take away the fact that this dude LJH simply makes plays.

6/62 yards and a TD against the Giants.
5/71 yards against the Panthers and a very big special teams play.

I understand small sample size. I understand low level of competition. And of course the biggest caveat, it's only preseason.

But the eye test tells me LJH can make plays for us and he has a big body. Why not use it? I wouldn't mind seeing him stick, if nothing else for special teams, and getting a chance to help out the Patriots in the receiving game in goal line situations where that big body can become a big advantage.
 

One-If-By-Sea

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225 not 210:


He's apparently currently fast enough to play gunner on a kicking team and beat a double team. So he could certainly run a 15 yard seam route.

If you compare combine results you have an apple to apple comparison. LJH might have added weight after the Combine but the other players did too. LJH combine results:
1661030843652.png

If you look up Asiasi or Smith or Henry's combine results, they were all about 250 to 255 lbs. Apples to apples is important.

If your only argument is that LJH ran gunner late in a pre-season against backups, I think that is pretty weak argument.
 

SlowGettingUp

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If you compare combine results you have an apple to apple comparison. LJH might have added weight after the Combine but the other players did too. LJH combine results:
View attachment 44661

If you look up Asiasi or Smith or Henry's combine results, they were all about 250 to 255 lbs. Apples to apples is important.

If your only argument is that LJH ran gunner late in a pre-season against backups, I think that is pretty weak argument.

I am comparing apples to apples - I'm comparing all their current weights as listed on the roster. All the TEs are right around 250, and LJH is 225. So a difference of 15.

If we dress 2 TEs and one goes down, LJH could absolutely beat man coverage and run a seam route in place of one of them.

If you don't believe me, here's someone you might trust more:

Belichick went on to describe him as both a receiver and a tight end based on his structure and style of play.

 

BTTA

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Oh boy the excuse making begins. I'm not convinced by the linebackers we have yet. Let them prove it on the field.

Sometimes it's ok to just say - he didn't play well, he looked lost, he needs to play better to earn his spot on the field.

See, that's the thing. Nobody who is following the Patriots thoughtfully, and certainly nobody on the coaching staff, expects McGrone to instantaneously "get it" after literally not being able to practice with a team for a year, and having never played in the NFL. He's a long term project. If he learns quickly, he could be an excellent addition to the LB rotation in November or December.

There's no "excuse making" happening, just rational evaluation.
 

One-If-By-Sea

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Correct. LJH ran a 4.75 40 at the combine. Carolina is also barely better than a JV NFL team.

However LJH made plays. You can only play against who you line up across from.

It's interesting to note that last year with the Saints, LJH averaged over 19 yards per catch with his 13 receptions.

For comparison Agholor whom the Patriots signed to be a stretch the field guy averaged only 12.8 yards per catch on 37 receptions.

There's no question that Agholor is way faster than LJH. But you can't take away the fact that this dude LJH simply makes plays.

6/62 yards and a TD against the Giants.
5/71 yards against the Panthers and a very big special teams play.

I understand small sample size. I understand low level of competition. And of course the biggest caveat, it's only preseason.

But the eye test tells me LJH can make plays for us and he has a big body. Why not use it? I wouldn't mind seeing him stick, if nothing else for special teams, and getting a chance to help out the Patriots in the receiving game in goal line situations where that big body can become a big advantage.

I agree with a lot of what say, but you forgot the most important caveat. LJH was playing against zone coverage. If he plays against 1st string players in man coverage, how is he going to separate? He is slower (much slower) than N'Keal who everyone said could not separate against man coverage. Why was that important in discussing N'Keal's weakness, but now it is an afterthought when discussing LJH? LJH is not a bad player, I think he is quite good, but come playoff time against better teams playing man coverage, LJH will disappear. Why do we want to invest in that?
 

One-If-By-Sea

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I am comparing apples to apples - I'm comparing all their current weights as listed on the roster. All the TEs are right around 250, and LJH is 225. So a difference of 15.

If we dress 2 TEs and one goes down, LJH could absolutely beat man coverage and run a seam route in place of one of them.

If you don't believe me, here's someone you might trust more:

Slater never said a negative thing about anyone.

Asiasi was 258 lbs at the Combine and has put on muscle since then, he is not right around 250 now, he is right around 265 lbs.

We use the Combine numbers for an apples to apples comparison because the numbers are witnessed and accurate. The measurements on the Pats roster are not witnessed and confirmed. Please, let's be reasonable.
 

SlowGettingUp

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LJH was playing against zone coverage. If he plays against 1st string players in man coverage, how is he going to separate? He is slower (much slower) than N'Keal who everyone said could not separate against man coverage.

Size can be its own separation - see Parker. LJH beating the double team twice in that one play suggests he has the ability to beat a jam easily.

We are talking very bottom of the roster here - all I am really saying is that the ability to sub for a TE if necessary gives him something the other bottom-of-the-roster candidates like Nixon do not. We are likely to be very play action/read option/run oriented, so better blocking than the lighter weight WRs is worth something. With Thornton heading for IR, there's an extra spot now to be had.
 

One-If-By-Sea

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Size can be its own separation - see Parker. LJH beating the double team twice in that one play suggests he has the ability to beat a jam easily.

We are talking very bottom of the roster here - all I am really saying is that the ability to sub for a TE if necessary gives him something the other bottom-of-the-roster candidates like Nixon do not. We are likely to be very play action/read option/run oriented, so better blocking than the lighter weight WRs is worth something. With Thornton heading for IR, there's an extra spot now to be had.

I prefer speed to height in the WR position.
 

Mack Herron

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I am comparing apples to apples - I'm comparing all their current weights as listed on the roster. All the TEs are right around 250, and LJH is 225. So a difference of 15.

If we dress 2 TEs and one goes down, LJH could absolutely beat man coverage and run a seam route in place of one of them.

If you don't believe me, here's someone you might trust more:



25 lbs is a big deal for in-line blocking. More H-back than TE. BB called him TE-ish.
 
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Jim Beankie

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If you compare combine results you have an apple to apple comparison. LJH might have added weight after the Combine but the other players did too. LJH combine results:
View attachment 44661

If you look up Asiasi or Smith or Henry's combine results, they were all about 250 to 255 lbs. Apples to apples is important.

If your only argument is that LJH ran gunner late in a pre-season against backups, I think that is pretty weak argument.
The sad thing is LJH actually lost weight for the Combine to get faster but still ran that slowly (then followed it up with 2 4.82s during his pro day). We already have Meyers and Bourne in the >4.6 40 club as it is (just Combine times not Hand time pro days).
 

VJCPatriot

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Why do we want to invest in that?
Sorry, but I've gotta LOL when you use the word 'invest'. We're talking about a 5th WR/3rd TE/special teamer here.

BB meanwhile has regularly used roster spots on pure special teamers before.

In fact I remember BB converted Mike Vrabel, usually a defensive end, expressly for the purpose of catching touchdown passes to get a big body in the red zone.


I see LJH as offering versatility which is what BB tends to like. He offers extra WR/TE depth, special teams, and big body for the Red Zone where size becomes its own talent.

I get why people are afraid of big body receivers because of the huge BUST that was N'Keal Harry. I'm sure many are scarred for life. But I don't see that here. NKH never seemed to work hard enough or ever get the playbook, he was more interested in posting slow-mo workout videos on instagram than actually earning his spot on the field.

LJH was picked up from the free agency scrap heap and is busting his hump to earn any roster spot possible. I'm not against it. I believe game 3 of preseason will be huge for his chances.

I tend to give LJH better odds to make the roster because both BB and Mac Jones have spoken highly of him.

BB: "He’s come in, really worked hard and made a very positive impression here. We’re glad we have him.”

Mac: “I think L.J. is a beast. And, when he got signed here, I remember I texted him and asked him if he wanted to come catch, and he immediately responded and found a way to make it out to where we were and came to our throwing session. He’s a grinder. He’s a big dude. He’s great on special teams, too.”

article:Patriots WR makes 'elite' special teams play Matthew Slater doesn't think he could make

Will he make the roster spot? Can't tell yet but he's got as good a chance as any bubble player. Both his QB and his coach speak highly of him and he adds something to the squad, a big body in the red zone and special teams ability.
 

One-If-By-Sea

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Sorry, but I've gotta LOL when you use the word 'invest'. We're talking about a 5th WR/3rd TE/special teamer here.

BB meanwhile has regularly used roster spots on pure special teamers before.

In fact I remember BB converted Mike Vrabel, usually a defensive end, expressly for the purpose of catching touchdown passes to get a big body in the red zone.


I see LJH as offering versatility which is what BB tends to like. He offers extra WR/TE depth, special teams, and big body for the Red Zone where size becomes its own talent.

I get why people are afraid of big body receivers because of the huge BUST that was N'Keal Harry. I'm sure many are scarred for life. But I don't see that here. NKH never seemed to work hard enough or ever get the playbook, he was more interested in posting slow-mo workout videos on instagram than actually earning his spot on the field.

LJH was picked up from the free agency scrap heap and is busting his hump to earn any roster spot possible. I'm not against it. I believe game 3 of preseason will be huge for his chances.

I tend to give LJH better odds to make the roster because both BB and Mac Jones have spoken highly of him.

BB: "He’s come in, really worked hard and made a very positive impression here. We’re glad we have him.”

Mac: “I think L.J. is a beast. And, when he got signed here, I remember I texted him and asked him if he wanted to come catch, and he immediately responded and found a way to make it out to where we were and came to our throwing session. He’s a grinder. He’s a big dude. He’s great on special teams, too.”

article:Patriots WR makes 'elite' special teams play Matthew Slater doesn't think he could make

Will he make the roster spot? Can't tell yet but he's got as good a chance as any bubble player. Both his QB and his coach speak highly of him and he adds something to the squad, a big body in the red zone and special teams ability.


BB, Mac, and Slater will never publically say anything bad about a player. No idea what support being polite indicates. Sorry but have to "LOL" when you say they "have spoken highly" about LJH.

LJH is comparable to Vrabel on special teams? Gold star for creativity. You think BB is at home thinking about M Vrabel and the similarity to LJH? Sorry but had to "LOL" at that.

LJH might make the PS. LJH on the 53? I can't imagine it.
 

Gumby

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BB, Mac, and Slater will never publically say anything bad about a player. No idea what support being polite indicates. Sorry but have to "LOL" when you say they "have spoken highly" about LJH.

LJH is comparable to Vrabel on special teams? Gold star for creativity. You think BB is at home thinking about M Vrabel and the similarity to LJH? Sorry but had to "LOL" at that.

LJH might make the PS. LJH on the 53? I can't imagine it.
Stop trying to find excuses/antagonism to stick w your original bad take.

the original suggestion was LJH could maybe take a roster spot as a TE , run only a few plays as a TE but still be there for ST. Imo not a ‚bad‘ idea. It’s not like we have gronk out there. We discussed similar w Harry last year.

arguing that you prefer speed in a wr when he being specifically discussed as TE-surrogate is just trying to find an ctr-argument where doesn’t exist.

Now you‘re implying poster is comparing ljh to Vrabel when poster was clearly using BB roster-mgmt process in the Vrabel situation as a similarity.

this is all just your ego trying to „win“ an argument. That isn’t/shouldn’t be an argument. Rather a discussion of possibilities.

it’s not like our TEs are the weakest position-group on the team. …Oh wait….
 

patfanken

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Good lord. You went from NT to DE to LB to SS... At that rate if you'd played a little longer you'd have ended up as CB or maybe even switched to offense as the speedster WR.
Well I got to college at 190 and played ILB as a freshman. A new HC came in the next year I added 10lbs and played DE on a wide tackle 6. By my senior year I had exploded up to 210 and played the nose in a 5-2 and MLB when were in a 4-3. When I was at nose I wasn't asked to be 2gap run stuffer. I was asked to read the head of the center which I did quite well. My job essentially was when the C took a side, I'd put the my face mask in his ear hole and play through to the ball. If they double teamed my my job was to make a pile and not get pushed off the LOS into the LB's. When I felt a 2team I simply Tackled the OG's inside leg and took him to the ground, thus creating a pile. I was never going to beat the double team at my size. It was great if we slanted or gapped into a double team. Then I had a chance to beat the G's block And remember back in the late 60's when i was in college playing what is now division 3 football, A big OLman was 260-70 most were 230-50.

It was a time when the goal of an offensive line coach was to get his OL to fire out with flat backs because back then the guy who was the lowest usually won. Hand fighting like we see today was derisively called "titty fights" Back then the offensive line AND the DL fired out leading with our helmets. Matter of fact, from HS thru College and the 2 years I played after college I don't think I made a block or tackle WITHOUT leading with the front of my helmet.

BTW - I had an MRI taken of my head about 6 months ago and my neurologist said it was the clearest she'd ever seen for someone my age. That being said I spend a lot more time these days looking for my keys and phone ;)

But like you said, It was really a very unlikely transition over the years. Sorry for rambling on. Its what I do at 3AM
 

patfanken

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Yes, the first time I've ever seen a zero (40 yd time) on one of those athletic comparison diagrams for a player that made the roster. But then did you watch that special teams play where he was the gunner? Double teamed (twice) and still broke through and made a super-athletic play.
"Slow as molasses" is not the epithet you'd chose for that play.

One question is he better than Asiasi or Keene? Because he provides TE depth of a sort - can block and run the seam route and withstand the resulting pounding.
He MIGHT be able to be a back up for what Smith is being asked to do, but he could never do what Henry does.
 

woolster22

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Has anyone else noticed we’ve had a sneaky feisty rivalry with Carolina all these years?

Obviously going all the way back to the 03 Super Bowl. But I remember that 09 game being chippy when Chris Gamble trash talked Moss after the game. Both the 13 and 17 games had pretty lousy calls and we lost both. And last year we had the Brian Burns/ Mac Jones incident during the game.

Not really sure why that’s even the case. Just seems like there’s been some bad blood over the years.
Images of Brady chastising and chasing sackless Blakeman up the ramp after Clete proved himself blind.....not what I had in mind to go with my cup of Joe this AM.
 

Jim Beankie

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Sorry, but I've gotta LOL when you use the word 'invest'. We're talking about a 5th WR/3rd TE/special teamer here.

BB meanwhile has regularly used roster spots on pure special teamers before.

In fact I remember BB converted Mike Vrabel, usually a defensive end, expressly for the purpose of catching touchdown passes to get a big body in the red zone.


I see LJH as offering versatility which is what BB tends to like. He offers extra WR/TE depth, special teams, and big body for the Red Zone where size becomes its own talent.

I get why people are afraid of big body receivers because of the huge BUST that was N'Keal Harry. I'm sure many are scarred for life. But I don't see that here. NKH never seemed to work hard enough or ever get the playbook, he was more interested in posting slow-mo workout videos on instagram than actually earning his spot on the field.

LJH was picked up from the free agency scrap heap and is busting his hump to earn any roster spot possible. I'm not against it. I believe game 3 of preseason will be huge for his chances.

I tend to give LJH better odds to make the roster because both BB and Mac Jones have spoken highly of him.

BB: "He’s come in, really worked hard and made a very positive impression here. We’re glad we have him.”

Mac: “I think L.J. is a beast. And, when he got signed here, I remember I texted him and asked him if he wanted to come catch, and he immediately responded and found a way to make it out to where we were and came to our throwing session. He’s a grinder. He’s a big dude. He’s great on special teams, too.”

article:Patriots WR makes 'elite' special teams play Matthew Slater doesn't think he could make

Will he make the roster spot? Can't tell yet but he's got as good a chance as any bubble player. Both his QB and his coach speak highly of him and he adds something to the squad, a big body in the red zone and special teams ability.


LJH, a rb/wr hybrid in HS, gained 10lbs before weighing 210lbs (also his Combine weight) on his Texas signing day, then gained 10 more lbs before the start of the season, and even back then there was talk about his gaining more weight to become a TE. Supposedly, he's the opposite of a diva, so that kind of attitude will go far with BB. I'd still go Nixon/Wilkerson over him, but I'm rooting for all of them, nonetheless, as I neither shop for the groceries nor cook the dinner. (Well... the only time I've massively complained that they had their heads up their pAsses was when Meyers was WR6 in the 1st 3rd of 2020.)

Can't believe the Pats won 7 games with Cam at QB and Izzo as pretty much the only TE. That's what the floor should be as far as expectations for any BB team is concerned.
 


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