Are Patriots Tanking or is this a “Bridge Year”?

[Ring 6]

It's about motivation they saved money because they didn't feel the talent was worth the investment or in a few instances like Ridley or Aiyuk the talent didn't choose us. I do not think the lack of spending was about tanking for better picks.

And I believe if you look into you will find they were top ten in cash spending and in guaranteed dollars spent too. It just so happened they had a large enough cap space that they couldn't spend 50 mil in a way they felt was prudent.

So your argument is that this 4 win team that will out below average or unknown players on the field at qb, wr, ot, iol, de, dt, lb, cb, s, k couldn’t find any players players in free agency that would make them better? All those other teams that signed better players than we have are crazy.
If your argument is to be believed, the mb the problem is bigger because the decision makers gave absolutely no clue what they are doing. I hope Kraft is cheap and this isn’t the result of them having Carte Blanche and an iron checkbook because that would be a lot worse

Stop with the top 10 in cash. Thats only because they had few players on the roster let half the team become free agents and paid their signing bonus this year instead of extending them and paying it last year when we were 31st in cash spending.

 

[signbabybrady]

Those are not new players.

So what if they are new or not. Actually not being new means they should already fit in so less concern too.

Would you rather those players were not retained creating more holes?

If they were tanking why invest at all they only serve to hurt your tanking chances.

 

[signbabybrady]

So your argument is that this 4 win team that will out below average or unknown players on the field at qb, wr, ot, iol, de, dt, lb, cb, s, k couldn’t find any players players in free agency that would make them better? All those other teams that signed better players than we have are crazy.
If your argument is to be believed, the mb the problem is bigger because the decision makers gave absolutely no clue what they are doing. I hope Kraft is cheap and this isn’t the result of them having Carte Blanche and an iron checkbook because that would be a lot worse

Stop with the top 10 in cash. Thats only because they had few players on the roster let half the team become free agents and paid their signing bonus this year instead of extending them and paying it last year when we were 31st in cash spending.

They signed players at just about every position you listed. You don't have to like every move but you are being very disingenuous.

qb - Signed a Vet & drafted one number 3 overall
wr - Drafted 2 and resigned 1 that most people like
ot - Should have done more but signed a bridge option and drafted 1 (not high enough in my opinion)
iol - biggest move of the off-season was probably Onwenwu and also drafted one.
DE - Valid complaint because we traded Judon for little return but one of our best young players is White so even with little investing this year the position should be in good shape.
dt - Signed Watts re-signed Godchaux
lb - Takitaki has been absent with an injury so I don't have much to say here could have probably used more but Bentley and Tavai are 2 of our better players
cb/s - kind of a joke you included this as it's our best and deepest positions and we also heavily spent on it between Peppers/Dugger getting re-signed and also bringing in Wilson and Hawkins
K - Again we did sign a Vet Slye to compete with our disappointing 2nd year kicker.

Hooper, Henry, and Gibson got cash this year too but they are at positions you didn't list. I guess RB and TE are the only positions you feel good about.

Why do half of this if we we're just trying to tank?

 

[Ring 6]

So what if they are new or not. Actually not being new means they should already fit in so less concern too.

Would you rather those players were not retained creating more holes?

If they were tanking why invest at all they only serve to hurt your tanking chances.

We are talking about what they did to IMPROVE THE TEAM.

I’m perfectly fine with bringing those players back, the problem is they didn’t do anything to improve. A 4 win team goes into the next season with less talent and 50 million unspent. I honestly can’t believe fans are defending that.

As people have pointed out there is a salary floor. You have to field a team. The one Kraft chose to field is one that spent 50 million less on players than he could have.

How do you expect to compete when the rest of the league is spending 25% more than you are? I remember the days we obsessed over how we would squeeze the most talent out of the $5,000,000 we had left under the cap. Now we just don’t spend it.

 

[signbabybrady]

We are talking about what they did to IMPROVE THE TEAM.

I’m perfectly fine with bringing those players back, the problem is they didn’t do anything to improve. A 4 win team goes into the next season with less talent and 50 million unspent. I honestly can’t believe fans are defending that.

As people have pointed out there is a salary floor. You have to field a team. The one Kraft chose to field is one that spent 50 million less on players than he could have.

How do you expect to compete when the rest of the league is spending 25% more than you are? I remember the days we obsessed over how we would squeeze the most talent out of the $5,000,000 we had left under the cap. Now we just don’t spend it.

See my last post they did a lot to improve things sorry if they weren't flashy enough moves for you but they did sign some decent vets up and down the roster.

I honestly can't believe I'm defending them too but you literally ignored everything they did do because you aren't happy about something else (wether that's Ridley, Aiyuk, or just some random top end star). I mean obviously I would have loved for them to shell out for one or two bigger moves too but just because they couldn't make it happen doesn't then mean they are tanking.

Don't get me wrong there are some very valid concerns LT being the largest IMO but you are taking it way too far. Like I originally said you need to be patient Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Ring 6]

They signed players at just about every position you listed. You don't have to like every move but you are being very disingenuous.

qb - Signed a Vet & drafted one number 3 overall
wr - Drafted 2 and resigned 1 that most people like
ot - Should have done more but signed a bridge option and drafted 1 (not high enough in my opinion)
iol - biggest move of the off-season was probably Onwenwu and also drafted one.
DE - Valid complaint because we traded Judon for little return but one of our best young players is White so even with little investing this year the position should be in good shape.
dt - Signed Watts re-signed Godchaux
lb - Takitaki has been absent with an injury so I don't have much to say here could have probably used more but Bentley and Tavai are 2 of our better players
cb/s - kind of a joke you included this as it's our best and deepest positions and we also heavily spent on it between Peppers/Dugger getting re-signed and also bringing in Wilson and Hawkins
K - Again we did sign a Vet Slye to compete with our disappointing 2nd year kicker.

Hooper, Henry, and Gibson got cash this year too but they are at positions you didn't list. I guess RB and TE are the only positions you feel good about.

Why do half of this if we were just trying to tank?

So they have 50 mill and you are good with that level of “rebuilding”?

Brissett? Really? He’s your evidence of commitment to win?
Every team has draft picks. Our wr position has no one with more than 41 yards per game for their career.
The T position is a big part of the issue. They went cheap on a bad player who got bench and reached in the 3rd round because they were embarrassed by the position.
IOL- There were very good players available that would have improved the team.
DE added no one and subtracted
DT Watts is a jag who might not make the team. Godchaux was under contract. We lost 2/3 of the DT rotation and have only the guys who sat on the bench last year and jags that are basically waiver wire guys.
LB they signed an injured backup. Woooohoooo. You are making my point.
Cb is our best position? Really? Who is the 2nd/3rd corner? Who is the 2rd S?

Are you seriously telling me you think they did a great job upgrading our 4 win team and we will be competitive? Listing bargain basement guys instead of good players is making my point. Did you think I was saying we didn’t have any players to put on the field at those positions?
Let me say it again. There were numerous players available at those positions that would have made this a better team.

I think we will be among the worst, and likely THE worst team in the league. That is my assessment of the roster we built and we did it by choosing not to spend $50,000,000. That’s is about 10 starters.
Why would we choose to not upgrade 10 starting positions?


Tanking is the result of the off season not necessarily the goal. The goal was to save massive amounts of money.
You do realize that Kraft has always spent less cash than most teams right?
It seems now he felt the team had no chance to win so goal 1 was the budget

 

[signbabybrady]

So they have 50 mill and you are good with that level of “rebuilding”?

Brissett? Really? He’s your evidence of commitment to win?
Every team has draft picks. Our wr position has no one with more than 41 yards per game for their career.
The T position is a big part of the issue. They went cheap on a bad player who got bench and reached in the 3rd round because they were embarrassed by the position.
IOL- There were very good players available that would have improved the team.
DE added no one and subtracted
DT Watts is a jag who might not make the team. Godchaux was under contract. We lost 2/3 of the DT rotation and have only the guys who sat on the bench last year and jags that are basically waiver wire guys.
LB they signed an injured backup. Woooohoooo. You are making my point.
Cb is our best position? Really? Who is the 2nd/3rd corner? Who is the 2rd S?

Are you seriously telling me you think they did a great job upgrading our 4 win team and we will be competitive? Listing bargain basement guys instead of good players is making my point. Did you think I was saying we didn’t have any players to put on the field at those positions?
Let me say it again. There were numerous players available at those positions that would have made this a better team.

I think we will be among the worst, and likely THE worst team in the league. That is my assessment of the roster we built and we did it by choosing not to spend $50,000,000. That’s is about 10 starters.
Why would we choose to not upgrade 10 starting positions?


Tanking is the result of the off season not necessarily the goal. The goal was to save massive amounts of money.
You do realize that Kraft has always spent less cash than most teams right?
It seems now he felt the team had no chance to win so goal 1 was the budget

I don't agree with your assessment rewriting what you already said and I already countered doesn't change my thinking.

I think they improved a little bit at lot of positions. I can't make you agree but I can try and make you not completely ignore that they did make moves.

I too wish they made at least one major improvement somewhere so I don't expect a major difference in our record probably just 2-3 games better than last year and a healthy Gonzo and just marginally better QB play should accomplish this more than the other signings.

Again I can understand your frustrations I just think calling it tanking is going to far.

And lastly I really don't understand why this board ignores/hates on Jonathan and Marcus Jones. And our 2 best safeties are Peppers and Dugger who combined are one of the best safety duos in the league. The fact you want even recognize our DBs are talented and deep takes away from your entire argument as you clearly are letting your bias of the front office moves cloud your judgement.

 

[lancerman]

So your argument is that this 4 win team that will out below average or unknown players on the field at qb, wr, ot, iol, de, dt, lb, cb, s, k couldn’t find any players players in free agency that would make them better? All those other teams that signed better players than we have are crazy.
If your argument is to be believed, the mb the problem is bigger because the decision makers gave absolutely no clue what they are doing. I hope Kraft is cheap and this isn’t the result of them having Carte Blanche and an iron checkbook because that would be a lot worse

Stop with the top 10 in cash. Thats only because they had few players on the roster let half the team become free agents and paid their signing bonus this year instead of extending them and paying it last year when we were 31st in cash spending.

You are taking a binary look at it. The team is rebuilding. When you spend money on players you have to evaluate

1. Will they make the team better
2. Will they be around longterm once enough time has passed for a window to open up.
3. Do we have to pay them a lot of money that could be prohibit us from getting someone who could be here for awhile when we are ready to win.

Like we could have paid Judon a lot of money, however we are just doing that to give him money this year and probably next year and then are hoping he didn't decline by that point so we can maybe get one good year of production out of him if everything went well. It didn't make sense. Aiyuk made sense because he could be a guy that we could keep for 6 or so years if everything goes well.

This team was NEVER going to win this year. Paying someone a lot of money to play this year and next because they might be somewhat better is just a waste of money and time.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't agree with your assessment rewriting what you already said and I already countered doesn't change my thinking.

I think they improved a little bit at lot of positions. I can't make you agree but I can try and make you not completely ignore that they did make moves.

I too wish they made at least one major improvement somewhere so I don't expect a major difference in our record probably just 2-3 games better than last year and a healthy Gonzo and just marginally better QB play should accomplish this more than the other signings.

Again I can understand your frustrations I just think calling it tanking is going to far.

And lastly I really don't understand why this board ignores/hates on Jonathan and Marcus Jones. And our 2 best safeties are Peppers and Dugger who combined are one of the best safety duos in the league. The fact you want even recognize our DBs are talented and deep takes away from your entire argument as you clearly are letting your bias of the front office moves cloud your judgement.

They improved at A LOT of positions? Please list them for me.
You seriously expect MORE wins? Wow.

Marcus Jones has played 414 snaps on defense in the NFL. And they weren’t exactly at a pro bowl level. Sure he has potential but every team in the league has guys with potential who haven’t done anything yet. I like Jon Jones but he is at best an average corner and probably should only be a slot corner and he is 31 years old. Don’t you think signing a cb1 or cb2 to play opposite Gonzalez and make jj the 3 and MJ depth would have made the position a real strength instead of ok, but lacking depth?
We play 3 safeties a lot. Signing a true FS would have allowed peppers or Dugger to play the s/lb role as well as giving us a lot of ability to use both of them creatively. That’s how you make rosters better.

 

[signbabybrady]

They improved at A LOT of positions? Please list them for me.
You seriously expect MORE wins? Wow.

Marcus Jones has played 414 snaps on defense in the NFL. And they weren’t exactly at a pro bowl level. Sure he has potential but every team in the league has guys with potential who haven’t done anything yet. I like Jon Jones but he is at best an average corner and probably should only be a slot corner and he is 31 years old. Don’t you think signing a cb1 or cb2 to play opposite Gonzalez and make jj the 3 and MJ depth would have made the position a real strength instead of ok, but lacking depth?
We play 3 safeties a lot. Signing a true FS would have allowed peppers or Dugger to play the s/lb role as well as giving us a lot of ability to use both of them creatively. That’s how you make rosters better.

QB, RB, WR, TE, CB, S, and Kicker were all upgraded just a little bit.

Just wait Marcus is going to make me look like a very smart fan this year.

And yes I think with Jacoby at Q instead of Mac and even Maye later in the season and with a healthy Gonzo this team is at least a 5 win team.

I'm not talking anything major like I said I mostly just taking exception with you calling it a tank before seeing what we got. Give it a month and even then maybe hold off until Maye plays.

 

[Ring 6]

You are taking a binary look at it. The team is rebuilding. When you spend money on players you have to evaluate

1. Will they make the team better
2. Will they be around longterm once enough time has passed for a window to open up.
3. Do we have to pay them a lot of money that could be prohibit us from getting someone who could be here for awhile when we are ready to win.

Like we could have paid Judon a lot of money, however we are just doing that to give him money this year and probably next year and then are hoping he didn't decline by that point so we can maybe get one good year of production out of him if everything went well. It didn't make sense. Aiyuk made sense because he could be a guy that we could keep for 6 or so years if everything goes well.

This team was NEVER going to win this year. Paying someone a lot of money to play this year and next because they might be somewhat better is just a waste of money and time.

1) there were many
2) if you are thinking more than 2-3 years out as a “window” you will never compete
3) they had loads of money.

They could have been competitive this year, 50 million is enough to upgrade almost half of the starting lineup.

 

[Zuma]

Are Patriots Tanking or is this a Bridge Year?​

 

[lancerman]

1) there were many
2) if you are thinking more than 2-3 years out as a “window” you will never compete
3) they had loads of money.

They could have been competitive this year, 50 million is enough to upgrade almost half of the starting lineup.

They were not going to be competitive this year. There just weren't enough upgrades on the market to do that. 2 blue chip players wipe out that 50 million. And none of them wanted to come here or required trades.

 

[Ring 6]

They were not going to be competitive this year. There just weren't enough upgrades on the market to do that. 2 blue chip players wipe out that 50 million. And none of them wanted to come here or required trades.

No non-qb free agent has a first year cap hit of 25 million.

There were over 70 players available that would have improved this team. We could have upgraded 8-10 starters. You can’t tell me improving almost half the starters makes it impossible to contend.
Houston last year is a perfect example. Every year teams overhaul their roster and become competitive.

 

[lancerman]

No non-qb free agent has a first year cap hit of 25 million.

There were over 70 players available that would have improved this team. We could have upgraded 8-10 starters. You can’t tell me improving almost half the starters makes it impossible to contend.
Houston last year is a perfect example. Every year teams overhaul their roster and become competitive.

Name those 70 players and what they signed for and if they would have come here. Then go over their current contract lengths and tell me if it would have mattered.

 

[Ring 6]

Name those 70 players and what they signed for and if they would have come here. Then go over their current contract lengths and tell me if it would have mattered.

I already have listed them.
Are you telling me our roster is so flush none of those players could have improved our 4 win team?

 

[lancerman]

I already have listed them.
Are you telling me our roster is so flush none of those players could have improved our 4 win team?

I'm saying they wouldn't have made our team a contender and they would have likely been gone or needed new contracts before we were.

I asked you to list how much they got. Outside of QB's this is the situation.

Christian Wilkins (a MA guy) got 4 years for 110 million. 84 million guaranteed. If nothing else he is averaging 21 million a year. Robert Hunt got 100 million over 5 years. With guarantees, and only the guarantees, at a minimum he gets 12 million a year. Calvin Ridley has 4 years but same idea, with guarantees 12 million a year.

So just off their guarantees per year, you wipe out the 50 million with those 3 players. In reality, you only get two because they all aren't going to only hit their minimums.

And yes that improves the team. One WR, one guard and one DT are not going to turn this team around and make it contenders. We lack way too much depth

 

[Ring 6]

I'm saying they wouldn't have made our team a contender and they would have likely been gone or needed new contracts before we were.

I asked you to list how much they got. Outside of QB's this is the situation.

Christian Wilkins (a MA guy) got 4 years for 110 million. 84 million guaranteed. If nothing else he is averaging 21 million a year. Robert Hunt got 100 million over 5 years. With guarantees, and only the guarantees, at a minimum he gets 12 million a year. Calvin Ridley has 4 years but same idea, with guarantees 12 million a year.

So just off their guarantees per year, you wipe out the 50 million with those 3 players. In reality, you only get two because they all aren't going to only hit their minimums.

And yes that improves the team. One WR, one guard and one DT are not going to turn this team around and make it contenders. We lack way too much depth

First those players do not take up 50,000,000 in first year cap. They take up 27. That leaves 23 million more to add other players
Secondly, why would you think the way to improve a team is to sign 3 players and ignore the rest of the roster?
Whether that results in being a contender it adds good football players to the team and speeds up the rebuild. Do you think we just wait a could years then find 52 players all at once to surround the qb with?
Do you not recognize that wining 7,8 or 9 games puts a team closer to contending than winning 2,3, or 4?
What is the advantage to keeping the money in krafts pocket?

If improving the team today is foolhardy, why would we improve it next year when we are just as bad because we did nothing to improve?
At the same time you are arguing the qbotf should sit on the bench because we don’t have a good team.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Its a tank as part of the rebuild.
There have been teams who have rebuilt without hitting rock bottom

eg. steelers, eagles

Sam, you do realize that players and coaches don’t “ tank,” right?

 

[maust]

I'm saying they wouldn't have made our team a contender and they would have likely been gone or needed new contracts before we were.

I asked you to list how much they got. Outside of QB's this is the situation.

Christian Wilkins (a MA guy) got 4 years for 110 million. 84 million guaranteed. If nothing else he is averaging 21 million a year. Robert Hunt got 100 million over 5 years. With guarantees, and only the guarantees, at a minimum he gets 12 million a year. Calvin Ridley has 4 years but same idea, with guarantees 12 million a year.

So just off their guarantees per year, you wipe out the 50 million with those 3 players. In reality, you only get two because they all aren't going to only hit their minimums.

And yes that improves the team. One WR, one guard and one DT are not going to turn this team around and make it contenders. We lack way too much depth

Those 3 would have to get us to the SB because those 3 contracts don't remain fixed at their 2024 cost. Next year their combined cost goes to @ $84M of the Pats @ $98M in anticipated cap space. Effectively precluding any 2025 additions via FA, making them and the 2025 draft the full extent of the rebuild.