Any chance we end up with Butler still?

[Pats1989]

I don't understand why the Patriots can't sign him. I'd he a top ten CB? Yes. Is he better than Gilmore? Yes.

 

[kennyb]

I don't understand why the Patriots can't sign him. I'd he a top ten CB? Yes. Is he better than Gilmore? Yes.

I think the league consensus is "no" to both of those questions. Tough, scrappy little guy, but limited.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

The only problem I see with the "crazy offer" scenario is that the Saints currently have only $6.5M in 2017 cap space. It seems like it would be tricky to give Butler a bonanza in guarantees and still keep his 2017 cap hit at a number that would need to be ridiculously low.

I suppose it's possible that they have some contract restructurings available to them to increase their cap space that we don't know about, but still ...

You're thinking like a sane person. You clearly haven't seen Mickey Loomis in action.

When they came out of nowhere (due to cap problems) to sign Jairus Byrd in 2014, they gave him a 6-year, $54M deal with $12.3M initially guaranteed. But the first year cap hit was only $3.5M, the second year $5.5M, and they pushed a bunch to the end. The signing bonus upfront helps get the free agent in the door even though the first year cap hit is relatively low from spreading that out, but because they're always in cap hell, they had to restructure a bonus into another signing bonus, and eventually ate $8M in dead money after cutting him.

In 2015, it was Coby Fleener for 5 years, $36M with $14.6M guaranteed initially. The first year cap hit was $2.4M, but it spikes up to $7.5M+ the next few years. They did this a bit differently, guaranteeing his $5.8M salary this year and leaving less in signing bonuses in case they need to cut him down the road.

But they've been creative in ways to get deals done in the short-term. It's hit them hard long-term though. But that's why you can never count them out for doing anything.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Butler left New Orleans with no contract and no signed tender. I'd say he and his agent discovered some very unpleasant news and reality.

Welcome home Malcolm, for at least another year.

Just think it would only take just short of 200 years laboring at Popeyes to earn the niggardly wages the Pats are paying for playing 16 hours of football in 2017!.

 

[1960Pats]

Great idea for a thread

Not as great as the 'new' Brady vs Garoppolo thread.

 

[patsinthesnow]

 

[Soliel]

Thats definitely a good sign.

 

[Froob]

View attachment 16630


View attachment 16631

God damn it, that's not what a screenshot is lol.

 

[Bill Lee]

Why would Butler's agent agree to any deal that is not at least = to AJ Bouye ($26m) or near what Gilmore ($40m) got in terms of guaranteed $$$?

Is he going to get that from the Saints? I think there's a chance given their current cap situation that doesn't happen. People keep talking about the $13m/year stuff.. but it's really about the guaranteed $$$.

Butler's agent would be negligent agreeing to any deal that doesn't have more than $26m in guarantees.

Disagree. Butler's agent is being negligent by pretending his client is a FA when he really is a RFA.

NE has the right to match whatever offer he gets from NO or any other team, and that offer will be depressed by the fact that the other team has to give up a 1st rounder. That first rounder is a chance to get a very talented young player who you can control for up to five years at relatively low cap hit, so it depresses the offer quite significantly.

And as much as we LOVE Butler here, he does get by without being the biggest and the fastest player out there. That's got to be preventing him from seeing Bouye/Gilmore type offers.

 

[RIpats88]

I feel like this is how it played out. Gilmore gets 13million then the personal injury lawyer tells butler "pats are disrespecting you with their offer, you need out" when in reality butlers offer was that of a rfa witg a 1st round tag while gilmores was ufa offer.

So bill tells butler, go out and see your market as a rfa if we are disrespecting you. Most likely butler found that bills offer was on the $$

A team isnt going to pay a rfa the same as a ufa because of the attached first rounder. And if said player wont take a discount there is no incentive for the pats to pay him ufa money a year early when they have him for 4million

If butler and his agent want him to make the most $$ the easiest bet is to play on the tender and hit UFA next year.

This is an inexperienced part time agent who doesnt understand the cba learning a hard lesson. Now maybe im wrong and the saints give butler 13million and trade a 1st round pick. It would be unprecedented though

 

[RayClay]

His agent is guilty of malpractice. I wonder if Butler plays the year out, if Patriots make some face saving contract gesture, or an extension? Neither he nor his agent have been nasty at all that I know of.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

While I think the odds are pretty high. I don't believe it's near 0%.

Here's why.

Why would Butler's agent agree to any deal that is not at least = to AJ Bouye ($26m) or near what Gilmore ($40m) got in terms of guaranteed $$$?

Is he going to get that from the Saints? I think there's a chance given their current cap situation that doesn't happen. People keep talking about the $13m/year stuff.. but it's really about the guaranteed $$$.

Butler's agent would be negligent agreeing to any deal that doesn't have more than $26m in guarantees.

There are differences between Bouye and Butler. For one thing, Bouye is 2 years younger. But for another, and somehow this isn't obvious enough apparently, Bouye is UNrestricted.

You want to use Bouye as an example, that's fine. Just don't forget that Bouye played out his restricted free agent year tender of $1.671M, and that's how he got to this UNrestricted free agent status.

Butler has not done even that yet.

The more this goes on, the more obvious it is that his agent ****ed-up. And if GMs can get blamed for screwing up deals and not understanding the market, so should agents. Jared Cook's agent botched his contract too and got less money and less years and had to move to Oakland or wherever the hell the Raiders are supposed to play. And it's clear Butler's agent could have secured him guaranteed money a year or two ago if he had any experience in what he was doing.

At this point, half the board could do a better job as a player agent than this schmuck.

 

[ivanvamp]

If Butler remains with the Patriots, their secondary will be incredible.

2016
CB Butler
CB Ryan
CB Rowe
S McCourty
S Chung

2017
CB Butler
CB Gilmore
CB Rowe
S McCourty
S Chung

Gilmore is a major upgrade over Ryan. Everything else is the same. Having Butler and Gilmore together would be fantastic.

If they lose Butler, their secondary will be very similar to what it was last year.

2016
CB Butler
CB Ryan
CB Rowe
S McCourty
S Chung

2017
CB Gilmore
CB Jones
CB Rowe
S McCourty
S Chung

Gilmore is every bit Butler's equal at CB. Everything else is the same, except that they need to replace Ryan, who was solid. The question is whether one of the Jones boys can adequately fill Ryan's shoes. Or if not, would they use a draft pick to pick up a CB who could do the job well.

 

[ivanvamp]

Disagree. Butler's agent is being negligent by pretending his client is a FA when he really is a RFA.

NE has the right to match whatever offer he gets from NO or any other team, and that offer will be depressed by the fact that the other team has to give up a 1st rounder. That first rounder is a chance to get a very talented young player who you can control for up to five years at relatively low cap hit, so it depresses the offer quite significantly.

And as much as we LOVE Butler here, he does get by without being the biggest and the fastest player out there. That's got to be preventing him from seeing Bouye/Gilmore type offers.

Your first two paragraphs give you the #1 reason why he isn't seeing Bouye/Gilmore offers, the question you kind of pose at the end. If 27 year old Malcolm Butler, a Super Bowl stud and pro bowl corner, was an unrestricted free agent right now, he'd have signed for HUGE dollars. But you're right - it's going to be very difficult for a team to offer him UFA dollars AND give up a first round pick for him. That's why he has no reason to complain, unless his complaint would really be about the CBA.

Note: I haven't actually heard any quotes of him complaining. It's more a figure of speech on my part. If he isn't happy for some reason, he has no right to be unhappy with the Patriots for signing Gilmore to UFA money. After all, Gilmore was a UFA and Butler was an RFA and yes, there's an ENORMOUS difference between the two.

It's kind of like a school teacher who is very good but has only been in the system for three years complaining because she's better than the teacher who's been there for 15 years and is making twice as much. Complain about the CBA her union negotiated if she wants, but she can't complain about how the school district is treating her - they're just following the agreed-upon process.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

The only way Butler goes is if he first signs his tender. Pats would simply match any offer right now from the Saints - if you assume the 11th pick in the draft is worth some $15m, then the Saints would be offering Butler on the order of $15m less than he would get as a free agent. Pats would likely match that, getting a long-term deal for a top corner at $15m under market. They could always then trade him next year if he didn't fit their long-term plans.

The reality is Butler is scheduled to play this year at maybe $9m under market, and so a pick at number 32 would be reasonable compensation.

So I see only two reasonable possibilities:

1. Butler signs his tender and plays for the Pats this year and leaves next year for big bucks (and the Pats get a 3rd-round compensatory pick the next year).

2. Butler signs his tender and then gets traded for something like the 32nd pick. Pats can't negotiate for that deal until he signs his tender.

So next up will be Butler signing his tender. Nothing will happen until that does.

 

[mosslost]

Starting to look like the Patriots really hold all the cards on this thing...

Are Patriots targeting No. 11 pick for Malcolm Butler?

 

[deroc5050]

I think the league consensus is "no" to both of those questions. Tough, scrappy little guy, but limited.

Not according to PFF. If you buy into there stats he was a top 5 corner in 2016. I would take Butler over Gilmore because I know Butler can do the job. There must be a reason as to why the Patriots... well I will hold off on that comment until I actually see Butler traded.

 

[supafly]

I don't understand why the Patriots can't sign him. I'd he a top ten CB? Yes. Is he better than Gilmore? Yes.

I think the league consensus is "no" to both of those questions. Tough, scrappy little guy, but limited.

Considering the fact that some mediots had Stephon Gilmore as the #1 overall free agent on the board this year (after franchising had occurred), I tend to trust Bill Belichick on this particular talent evaluation.

And also Kenny B, who is obviously in the Belichick family, as well.

 

[supafly]

Not according to PFF. If you buy into there stats he was a top 5 corner in 2016. I would take Butler over Gilmore because I know Butler can do the job. There must be a reason as to why the Patriots... well I will hold off on that comment until I actually see Butler traded.

Not the "PFF" argument again, deroc! They are okay for certain team statistics, but they suck for stuff like this.

Look no further than the fact that PFT/NBC sports didn't even have him in their "top 100 free agent list," as well as the 2016 CB rankings from NFL.com, who doesn't even list Butler's name as far as I can tell. I mean, he's not even in their "honorable mention" section. Also, football outsiders didn't even have him in their 2015 rankings, either.

Year-end cornerback rankings: Richard Sherman lands at No. 1

 

[ALP]

he will play out this year on the Pats, after that we will give him a close to market deal of about 10-11M/yr and his decision would be to take it and stay or go elsewhere for similar/sligthly more money