Any chance we end up with Butler still?

[borg]

Bringing Butler in for a meeting, negotiating with him, saying that the Cooks trade was to improve on defense, and the defensive player they are targeting is from the same team they just traded Cooks to. And on top of that, Payton did just have a press conference where he praised Butler. Add that to numerous reports that this has been the case for weeks, and all actions by the Patriots, the Saints, and Butler, confirming it.

What exactly needs to be said for you realize the glaring, obvious truth right in front of you?

Some people couldn't spell "cat" even if you spotted them the "c" and the "t"

 

[maineman209]

Bringing Butler in for a meeting, negotiating with him, saying that the Cooks trade was to improve on defense, and the defensive player they are targeting is from the same team they just traded Cooks to. And on top of that, Payton did just have a press conference where he praised Butler. Add that to numerous reports that this has been the case for weeks, and all actions by the Patriots, the Saints, and Butler, confirming it.

What exactly needs to be said for you realize the glaring, obvious truth right in front of you?

"Numerous reports" from the media are irrelevant to me. The rest is reading between the lines and believing that there can be one and only one conclusion.

That's far from "obvious truth" for me. Perhaps my standards are simply too high.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[kennyb]

The meeting with butler was after the cooks trade, not before.

It would be against the rules to discuss trading a player who is not under contract. Butler is not until he signs.

I don't think belichick would cavalierly break an ovious rule.

And the saints would not be willing to trade for butler until they heard his long term salary demands. So it makes no sense. All this "handshake" and "wink wink" is nonsense. Just idiots trying to act like they have the "real inside scoop".

And there's a good chance butler comes back. His salary demands even without giving up a pick are likely way too high. Throw in a high pick and it's not close.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

All this "handshake" and "wink wink" is nonsense. Just idiots trying to act like they have the "real inside scoop".

It's the highly, highly likely idea that the Patriots and Saints have worked out the compensation if Butler agrees to a deal with the Saints, so that they can make a trade where the Saints give up some compensation that the Patriots are satisfied with. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't be negotiating with Butler and bringing him in for an evaluation. It's undeniable that the Saints are one the following:

-The only team that has a deal worked out with the Patriots for compensation if they want to trade for Butler.
-The only team that is interested in acquiring Butler as an RFA, knowing his general demands.
-The only team the Patriots will consider trading Butler to, in accordance with a verbal understanding in the Cooks trade.

Most likely a combination of those three...the only one that seems more theoretical is the third point, but the idea that the Butler talks with the Saints AT LEAST coincided with the Cooks talks...and it's a very reasonable assumption that the Butler trade compensation was worked out at the same time, if not giving the Saints "first dibs" as well.

Do you want to know how I know this? Because the Saints are the only team that has brought Malcolm Butler in for negotiations and evaluations. And until another team does the same thing, you can use obvious common sense to draw the same conclusion.

 

[fnordcircle]

Yeah it's uh, pretty doubtful in my mind that the Saints would bother hosting a player and negotiating a contract with them if they have no idea what the Patriots will want. At least, that's what all of my sources are telling me.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

Exactly 0.0%

thats higher than pats chance of winning last sb midway thru the 3rd qtr

 

[deroc5050]

Honestly I'm in the minority here but I really think if the Saints offer him something reasonable the Pats may match it

I really hope the Pats do match. I would love to have 2 good Corner Backs.. that would open the defense to run many more schemes. They could be more aggressive.. blitz more, press man coverage.. etc..

 

[pdangle]

Note: Cross-post, but directly appropriate to question of O.P.

Yes. I think this whole thing is a BB agent public relations move similar to that just demonstrated in the HT situation.

Firstly, the Cooks deal is a separate entity. No hidden promises, 2 for 1's, winks-winks or anything like that. Not BB's style, and too many variables or newly interested 3rd parties butting in that could go wrong for either team.

Butler's agent did not believe the offer the pats gave his RFA client was fair/market value. BB said, well then go work out a deal with an interested team and see. Obviously any such deal would have to factor in the loss of the team's first rounder. Just as BB had factored in the extra cost with his offer. Perhaps which, the agent didn't quite understand or value the pick highly enough. NO had just shown interest, so logically that's where they started, and off they went to make a deal.

And so, they did. The agent went to NO and said what type of contract would you give my client? They hammered a deal out. Probably right in line as everyone has said, in the 7M-8M AAV 3-4 yrs range factoring the loss of the NO first, the 11th.

Why wasn't a deal done? They know the offer is fair/market, just not worth signing. More importantly for NE, and as planned, they now also know BB wasn't screwing them with his offer either. It is what it is. Take a now-known-as-fair fair RFA extension deal or play on the tender, assume 1 year of risk, and get the big UFA deal next season. From the looks of it they're going to roll the dice and cash in as a UFA. Or, maybe try to find a team with a later 1st rounder with a more tempting offer, but they know that's not very likely to really move the compensation needle satisfactorily.

In any case, for the UFA plan to work and succeed you need to be a good soldier. If you're planning on shooting your way out of town as a RFA forcing a trade, sitting out or pouting, you don't go sign some autographs and say you want to be a Patriot for life. So I think what we're now seeing is a more realistic Butler, less worried about, or not believing in a fair market RFA offer, playing nice, here for another year and about to play some serious contract year ball paving the way for his big UFA deal after another high profile Super Bowl run!

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

...........................

It's not an absolute must, aside from a formal offer sheet transaction, that a deal happens before the draft. There may be a team out there who would wait to see which corners are off the board by the time their pick comes up who could pull the trigger on a trade for Butler during the draft, e.g. Welker and Moss in 2007.

................

The only problem with that is that that team would have to negotiate the terms of the trade with NE while they are on the clock ( doable) AND negotiate a long term contract with Butler and his agent while on the clock. (questionable) Otherwise they risk losing him as an UFA next year if they don't franchise him......Considering how much of a novice Butler's agent is, would they be able to get it done while they are on the clock???? Would they trust him (Butlers agent) or if he signs the tender and gets traded but doesn't sign a long term deal with the new club, they get screwed..... It might be doable at night between Thur and Fri before round 2..but isn't Butler worth more than a second rounder pick,???? Unless that team wants to give up a first rounder next year.....

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Please post the evidence that there is a super secret Cooks-Butler deal yet to be consummated.
With 50 Butler threads it's hard to find

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Some people in here think it's 100% while others think it's 0%. Neither is right. There's lots of things that need to be resolved, we can't be certain one way or another.

My main concern is that Mickey Loomis negotiates like a drunken sailor on shore leave at a whore house for the first time in 3 months. As the Hightower saga showed, the Patriots had an excellent read on his market throughout the process. And they have a number on Butler as well.

But if Loomis and the Saints are involved, their number might be absolutely ridiculous. Everyone in the league might have a similar value, but it only takes one. Loomis and the Saints have taken a lot of big swings over the years, and probably believe they're "one player away" every year. It's led to some huge whiffs, but they have persistence.

With Delvin Breaux returning after an injury-plagued season, it wouldn't surprise me if Loomis thought they were one good CB away from curing all of their pass defense problems. So it wouldn't shock me at all if Butler got a crazy offer far beyond anyone else's.

 

[kennyb]

NO may have expressed an interest in butler, but how much he is worth to them depends how reasonable his contract demands are. It would be against rules to discuss trading him when not under contract, and not enough time for NO to work out a contract in the cooks trade.

I really doubt he signs with them. Unless he accepts far less than he thinks he's worth to get some security and get out of town. We'll see. I'd rather a late first than a 4m butler anyway.

 

[yopats]

Note: Cross-post, but directly appropriate to question of O.P.

Yes. I think this whole thing is a similar public relations agent move from BB as just shown in the HT situation.

Firsty, the Cooks deal is a separate entity. No hidden promises, 2 for 1's, winks-winks or anything like that. Not BB's style, and too many variables or newly interested 3rd parties butting in that could go wrong for either team.

Butler's agent did not believe the offer the pats gave his RFA client was fair/market value. BB said, well then go work out a deal with an interested team and see. Obviously any such deal would have to factor in the loss of the team's first rounder. Just as BB had factored in the extra cost with his offer. Perhaps which, the agent didn't quite understand or value the pick highly enough. NO had just shown interest, so logically that's where they started, and off they went to make a deal.

And so, they did. The agent went to NO and said what type of contract would you give my client? They hammered a deal out. Probably right in line as everyone has said, in the 7M-8M AAV 3-4 yrs range factoring the loss of the NO first, the 11th.

Why wasn't a deal done? They know the offer is fair/market, just not worth signing. More importantly for NE, and as planned, they now also know BB wasn't screwing them with his offer either. It is what it is. Take a now-known-as-fair fair RFA extension deal or play on the tender, assume 1 year of risk, and get the big UFA deal next season. From the looks of it they're going to roll the dice and cash in as a UFA. Or, maybe try to find a team with a later 1st rounder with a more tempting offer, but they know that's not very likely to really move the compensation needle satisfactorily.

In any case, for the UFA plan to work and succeed you need to be a good soldier. If you're planning on shooting your way out of town as a RFA forcing a trade, sitting out or pouting, you don't go sign some autographs and say you want to be a Patriot for life. So I think what we're now seeing is a more realistic Butler, less worried about, or not believing in a fair market RFA offer, playing nice, here for another year and about to play some serious contract year ball paving the way for his big UFA deal after another high profile Super Bowl run!

The single best take on this whole situation.

Well done sir!

 

[AzPatsFan]

if the saints offer 10 million or less he may stay and play out his contract but i got the saints giving him 5 years at 12 million per and sending the pats a 2nd round pick

Why would BB do that even for a friend? He might agree to Butler and say a 4th; for the #11 though. NO gets Butler and still has a #1. BB could trade down, and draft both a CB and DE high then.

 

[pherein]

It's the highly, highly likely idea that the Patriots and Saints have worked out the compensation if Butler agrees to a deal with the Saints, so that they can make a trade where the Saints give up some compensation that the Patriots are satisfied with. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't be negotiating with Butler and bringing him in for an evaluation. It's undeniable that the Saints are one the following:

-The only team that has a deal worked out with the Patriots for compensation if they want to trade for Butler.
-The only team that is interested in acquiring Butler as an RFA, knowing his general demands.
-The only team the Patriots will consider trading Butler to, in accordance with a verbal understanding in the Cooks trade.

Most likely a combination of those three...the only one that seems more theoretical is the third point, but the idea that the Butler talks with the Saints AT LEAST coincided with the Cooks talks...and it's a very reasonable assumption that the Butler trade compensation was worked out at the same time, if not giving the Saints "first dibs" as well.

Do you want to know how I know this? Because the Saints are the only team that has brought Malcolm Butler in for negotiations and evaluations. And until another team does the same thing, you can use obvious common sense to draw the same conclusion.

Pretty easy that we are saying is exactly what your thinking.

Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!

1. I dont think SP thought Butler was even an option, but when BB made it one he was interested, but not for #11. If SP was interested in giving up #11 why not just call Butler right away and not even envolve BB ? Make the contract and see if NE covers it. These deals would have happened seperately at the same time. But SP waited until the Cooks deal was done, and waited until everything was in writing for Cooks to go to NE. Also Butler never did a physical, so that tells me NE released all they had on him to SP in good faith.

2. The Talks went on between SP and BB a day and 1/2 longer than SP said they would make a decision. This tells me that Butlers agent was involed. Why even Bring Butler to NO unless you know we are in the same ball park for a contract ? Makes not sense. This had to be an agreement with BB and the agent on what needs to happen. Butler only came here, had diner with SP, looked at houses, and talked to the coaches and team. No physical. Im thinking it was just a yes or no visit. Do you like us. Do we like you. Also Butler grew up around here in Mississippi as a saints fan. He knows NO, his family lives around here.

3. No contract is exactly what has to happen to not get a #11. He needs to sign and be traded by BB to SP for a deal we think included Cooks or why not bring him in right away. This is part of the deal to get a truely great WR cooks.
4. Butlers agent has been strangely silent, and no more talks with Pats office., hmmm

As some stated its odd Saints get 1st and 3rd pick for cooks while Pats retain 4th which they will lose because of ****tell? I think this tells you that Pats might give its 4th to NO (who can use it) for a 2nd and a 3rd or just 2nd, or Saints wil eat that loss in some way. This has deal handshake written all over it betweet 2 guys that like eachother and are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
My personal feeling is its a pick #2 and #3 or one of those , and I stress this. BB wants to trade another player in the deal maybe Coleman, Brandon a Colston look alike which SP is developing. Everyone knows SP and Saints are a WR farm. It is something we do well. Look I dont think anyone was happier outside of NE than Brees or SP that you made Godell hand you the trophy, we tried and failed.

I also can see the Sherman deal were SP would usually bring him or other lesser CB's in has he ? He hasn't. Because there is no way SP will screw BB either if there is a deal in play.

 

[maineman209]

The only problem with that is that that team would have to negotiate the terms of the trade with NE while they are on the clock ( doable) AND negotiate a long term contract with Butler and his agent while on the clock. (questionable) Otherwise they risk losing him as an UFA next year if they don't franchise him......Considering how much of a novice Butler's agent is, would they be able to get it done while they are on the clock???? Would they trust him (Butlers agent) or if he signs the tender and gets traded but doesn't sign a long term deal with the new club, they get screwed..... It might be doable at night between Thur and Fri before round 2..but isn't Butler worth more than a second rounder pick,???? Unless that team wants to give up a first rounder next year.....

Acknowledging that this is all hypothetical ...

It seems highly unlikely that a team seriously considering such a transaction would wait until the draft is already in progress to begin negotiations from scratch. IF such a team exists, it would seem safe to assume that they'd have a contingency agreement with the Pats in place, with any negotiations transpiring during the next five weeks.

Also, what WE, as fans, think Butler is worth to the Pats and what the Pats would be willing to accept in an actual trade scenario may well be very different.

 

[maineman209]

Some people in here think it's 100% while others think it's 0%. Neither is right. There's lots of things that need to be resolved, we can't be certain one way or another.

My main concern is that Mickey Loomis negotiates like a drunken sailor on shore leave at a whore house for the first time in 3 months. As the Hightower saga showed, the Patriots had an excellent read on his market throughout the process. And they have a number on Butler as well.

But if Loomis and the Saints are involved, their number might be absolutely ridiculous. Everyone in the league might have a similar value, but it only takes one. Loomis and the Saints have taken a lot of big swings over the years, and probably believe they're "one player away" every year. It's led to some huge whiffs, but they have persistence.

With Delvin Breaux returning after an injury-plagued season, it wouldn't surprise me if Loomis thought they were one good CB away from curing all of their pass defense problems. So it wouldn't shock me at all if Butler got a crazy offer far beyond anyone else's.

The only problem I see with the "crazy offer" scenario is that the Saints currently have only $6.5M in 2017 cap space. It seems like it would be tricky to give Butler a bonanza in guarantees and still keep his 2017 cap hit at a number that would need to be ridiculously low.

I suppose it's possible that they have some contract restructurings available to them to increase their cap space that we don't know about, but still ...

 

[stinkypete]

Here's a question that I have not heard asked yet...

Reports about a week ago suggested that Butler's trade value is lower than fans perceive it to be, possible as low as NO's 2nd round pick (and maybe a late rounder).

Surely, if Butler were to play out 2017 on his tender, then sign elsewhere as a FA, he would net the Patriots a 3rd round comp pick.

So, in Belichick's mind, is one year of Malcolm Butler at under $4 million worth moving down from pick 43 in 2017 to, let's say, pick 100 in 2019?

Belichick has shown willingness to part with a 4th rounder for a one year rental . The drop in trade value (according to the old chart) is about 370 points - the equivalent of a late 2nd rounder. I assume this is too steep a value to pass up, but the twilight of Brady's career presents unique circumstances.

 

[mosslost]

The single best take on this whole situation.

Well done sir!

So, if I read this right, we have a good chance of still hanging on to Butler for one more year at least.

 

[yopats]

So, if I read this right, we have a good chance of still hanging on to Butler for one more year at least.

If we hear Butler's team has agreed to a deal with the Saints it's over.

The longer it goes on the better the chances of Butler staying with us for 2017.