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DRAFT DAY DISCUSSION A tale of a draft SQUANDERED....

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Connolly is below average to average
No, Connolly just plain sucks! Meanwhile, to draft a fourth string running back in the third round when there is a huge hole at right guard in inexcusable.
 
I don't question the Shane Vereen pick whatsoever since he is a three down back. Meanwhile Stevan Ridley is a poor man's BJGE and does not warrant a draft pick higher than the fifth round. Also Stevan Ridley will be no higher than fourth on the running back depth chart during the 2011 NFL Season.

Why does a poor-man's BJGE not warrant higher than a 5th round pick? If I'm not mistaken, most teams would be jumping at the chance to draft the player BJGE turned out to be in the third round if they knew they were getting a hard, downhill runner who doesn't fumble and can get tough yards.

Oh and I hope Ridley (I'd also being saying this for whatever 2nd rb they drafted) stays at 4th on the depth chart because a bigger role would most likely mean BJGE or Woohead were injured/not playing.
 
I don't understand how a comparison to last year's draft is even relevant. Last year's draft was considered by most to be the one of the strongest in recent memory, while this year's appeared to be on the weaker side.

That is a reasonable thing to say.. I was not trying to compare player against player as much as players in the same ''class'' so to speak. Besides, if a draft is weak, that is all the more reason to be going up to get the stronger talent rather than trading down to get weaker.
 
I'm an idiot? How in the entire universe does a team go 14-2 and "they're torched by everybody because of the linebackers!!!"....how the hell is a 27 QB rating and a 42 point loss a "torching!!@!!!!!"???

If anyone is an idiot it is YOU and your intergalactically idiotic narrow mindset. Linebacker sacks are not the PRIMARY objective of BB's defense.

I never said that the "pass rush isn't a problem!!!!"

Why do you keep bringing up some meaningless games and a 14-2 record? Our defense had little to do with us going 14-2. They were frontrunners like one former Patriot said and were carried by the offense. What matters to me is our 0-2 home playoff record where our lack of talent has been very clear.DE/OLB is a need....BB didn't address it...i guess we'll see during the season if those guys who we passed on are not worthy players.
 
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Why does a poor-man's BJGE not warrant higher than a 5th round pick? If I'm not mistaken, most teams would be jumping at the chance to draft the player BJGE turned out to be in the third round if they knew they were getting a hard, downhill runner who doesn't fumble and can get tough yards.

Oh and I hope Ridley (I'd also being saying this for whatever 2nd rb they drafted) stays at 4th on the depth chart because a bigger role would most likely mean BJGE or Woohead were injured/not playing.
Stevan Ridley was rated no higher than a low fifth round draft pick by NFL Draft Scout and was rated a sixth round draft pick by Mike Mayock. Stevan Ridley ran a slower 40 time than BJGE and was less productive during his collegiate career than BJGE, who incidentally was an undrafted free agent. In addition, BJGE has never fumbled the football during his entire NFL career.

The need for a fourth string running back on the New England Patriots during the 2011 NFL Season does not outweigh the need of a starting right offensive guard for the New England Patriots. Clint Boling, OG for Georgia is rated a third round draft pick in the 2011 NFL Draft and the need for a starting right offensive guard outweighs the need for a fourth string running back. In addition, the need for a starting 3-4 outside linebacker outweighs the need for a fourth string running back. Furthermore, the need for a starting 3-4 defensive end outweighs the need for a fourth string running back.
 
Cripes, Not you too Ken. Get a grip...

I expect the self appointed draft guru know nothings to B1tch, b1tch, b1tch moan, piss, and cry. But You?!?

OK, OK, it was right after the Mallet pick and I might have over reacted....just a bit. But maybe that's not such a bad thing. I don't think I ever started a 17 page thread before. Let me try and rearticulate my feelings.

No this isn't the beginning of the end. It just seems that way . But don't miss understand me. Its not the players so much that I'm complaining about. Its how the draft was managed. We came in with 5 picks in the top 75. That is a HUGE haul. Aren't we entitled to think we could do better than what we got.

My mantra is did the draft make us substantially better. Did we add 2 or 3 IMPACT players that can take this team to the next level in January. And when I say impact players, I don't mean contributors. McCourty was an impact player. Woodhead was a nice "contributor" Now I don't expect us to add 2 or 3 impact players every draft, but we don't go into EVERY draft with 5 picks in the top 75 every year.

Going into the draft I was fine with trading some of those picks for futures. I was fine with Solder and trading out of 28, especially with what we got in return. I'm actually fine with the Dowling pick. I posted a scenario for picking a top CB in the draft section and justified it...but the CBs considered were Peterson and Smith. 2 BIG CBs with great skills, size and speed. So I'm fine with picking a big CB in the 2nd. But I found it hard to believe that there were teams behind the Pats who were lining up to grab him before middle of the round.

I wanted that premium from teams who needed to move up. So its not so much we picked a CB, and not so much it was Dowling, but more I felt we had wasted the rare opportunity to have the first pick in the draft on the 2nd day with lots of people needing to move up.

I over reacted on Vereen, like I said, he was one of my favorites at RB, but based on everything I had read or seen, I didn't expect him to be the 2nd RB taken and certainly not before Leshure and Daniels. But I DO understand that reaches are sometimes made, and I wouldn't have thought much about until he picked almost immediately picked the 2nd RB

Ridley's pick was even more perplexing. It seemed to acknowledge that even though we picked Vereen that highly, we needed a bigger RB with a different set of skills. I would think that the 2nd RB off the board would be an every down back. And while BB might not evaluate players the same as everyone else, you can't tell me he wasn't a stretch and by about 2 or 3 rounds

Finally a lot of people here defended BB saying that this is a crummy draft and he couldn't find the players he wanted and that was part of reason he moved out. But you can't have it both ways. If the draft was THAT weak. Why didn't he use the currency that he had, and go after the few quality players that he needed. It was like he was at an auction with the most money and STILL didn't buy anything.

Hypothetically if BB thought there were 2 players who were impact players outside the top 5, regardless of position, he had the capability to go get them. And if Solder was one of those players and he need to be at 17 to get him, I would opine that 28, 33, one of the 3rds could have gotten anyone else he wanted.....at least. So saying the draft weak, is....not an excuse.

People make a valid point that the defense is so young that we shouldn't be adding too many MORE young players to the mix. I totally agree. All the more reason to have USED our capitol to MAXIMIZE who we got. I would have been fine if all we ended up with were 4 or 5 picks....if they were used to get the the supposed few quality players who WERE in this draft.

I have also been very vocal prior to the draft proclaiming that FA will have a bigger impact this year than most, since the talent pool is so deep and rich. 500 guys are a lot of guys to absorb and the number of players looking for jobs will depress the prices, especially in the "middle class". Good deals to to be had....whenever it starts.

Finally I'm not backing down on Mallet. I can't believe the round was SO bereft of talent that Mallet "needed" to be chosen. Don't get me wrong. Like I said in my post, Mallet COULDN'T have been drafted into a better situation. This was a career saving moment for HIM. For the Pats....not so much. When this kid's rookie contract runs out, the same year Brady's does. But beyond that, despite the raw physical talent, he seems to lack all the intangible qualities that we seem to value in a QB. Leadership, great decision making skills, the ability to take care of the ball. These are all the things that Hoyer has in abundance, despite not having the gun that Mallet has.

I am philosophically against wasting a draft pick on any QB at this point, let alone one in the 2nd day, but ESPECIALLY one that doesn't really fit our system.

So let me make myself clear. I do not think the Pats have jumped the shark. But I DO think that a great opportunity was available and essentially wasted, when all we could really make happen with 6 picks in the first 3 rounds was a top OT prospect, what we HOPE is a #5 DB, some RB depth, and the most talented #3 QB in the league.
 
No, I noted that every "GM" fell into the category being carved out by the poster, by pointing to one considered among the very best and one considered to have been a disaster. The fact that you find the so-called equation absurd is really the point.

'All GMs have drafting experience' is correct. I never said otherwise. However, to correctly compare an extremely successful GM like BB to an extremely unsuccessful GM such as Millen, it means taking a general view of it (meaning results are not a consideration, they both simply performed comparable actions). Which led me to ask why is the same general view of Mallet as Brady's successor not like Rodgers as Favre's successor? In general, Farve/Rodgers day 1 has multiple similarities to Brady/Mallet day 1. Both teams simply performed an action (aging superstar QB replacement possibility); the results are not at issue. However, the latter comparison you termed an 'absurd' comparison (or however you termed it). That was my issue. There is no factual absurdity to BB's pick of Mallet or him being Brady's replacement or it being a Rodgers/Farve result. None. Will there be? It's certainly possible. It could end up Brady plays at a high level for 7 more years, Mallet might be a bust, we may end up with an even better back up, etc etc. But it is a completely undetermined point.....not absurd.....not pure genius, nothing. Again, the Mallet pick is, at this point, an action to ultimately replace an aging superstar QB. However, factually speaking, you or I or Matt Millen have less probability of being correct than one of the most winning GMs of the modern era.
 
Even reading your follow up I still don't agree with you patfanken, but you're alright in my book.
 
Stevan Ridley was rated no higher than a low fifth round draft pick by NFL Draft Scout and was rated a sixth round draft pick by Mike Mayock. Stevan Ridley ran a slower 40 time than BJGE and was less productive during his collegiate career than BJGE, who incidentally was an undrafted free agent. In addition, BJGE has never fumbled the football during his entire NFL career.

The need for a fourth string running back on the New England Patriots during the 2011 NFL Season does not outweigh the need of a starting right offensive guard for the New England Patriots. Clint Boling, OG for Georgia is rated a third round draft pick in the 2011 NFL Draft and the need for a starting right offensive guard outweighs the need for a fourth string running back. In addition, the need for a starting 3-4 outside linebacker outweighs the need for a fourth string running back. Furthermore, the need for a starting 3-4 defensive end outweighs the need for a fourth string running back.

Everything in bold is your opinion, which doesn't make it a fact even though you take the tone that it is. Also, what is the guarantee that a 3rd round pick will be a starting OLB, guard, or 3-4 five tech DE like you make it seem? Oh yeah, nothing is guaranteed...so stop making it like drafting a player where there is an absolute hole (4th RB) that he may be able to fill is a bad thing. Any DE, OLB, or G has the exact same chance that Ridley has to contribute.

Oh and all of these draft experts besides a few with inside information are using their opinions just like you are, so who cares if Mayock rated Ridley as a 6th rounder or Boling as a 3rd rounder. The Pats clearly thought Ridley was worth more than a 6th rounder, so they drafted him. Remember when all of the draft experts thought the Vollmer pick was awful and a complete reach. Hmm, how did that turn out? Oh yeah, he's one of the top RT's in the league.
 
This is just like what happened last year this time in here`````and look at what that turns out, we really know nothing about drafting and BB konws it all````
 
'All GMs have drafting experience' is correct. I never said otherwise. However, to correctly compare an extremely successful GM like BB to an extremely unsuccessful GM such as Millen, it means taking a general view of it (meaning results are not a consideration, they both simply performed comparable actions). Which led me to ask why is the same general view of Mallet as Brady's successor not like Rodgers as Favre's successor? In general, Farve/Rodgers day 1 has multiple similarities to Brady/Mallet day 1. Both teams simply performed an action (aging superstar QB replacement possibility); the results are not at issue. However, the latter comparison you termed an 'absurd' comparison (or however you termed it). That was my issue. There is no factual absurdity to BB's pick of Mallet or him being Brady's replacement or it being a Rodgers/Farve result. None. Will there be? It's certainly possible. It could end up Brady plays at a high level for 7 more years, Mallet might be a bust, we may end up with an even better back up, etc etc. But it is a completely undetermined point.....not absurd.....not pure genius, nothing. Again, the Mallet pick is, at this point, an action to ultimately replace an aging superstar QB. However, factually speaking, you or I or Matt Millen have less probability of being correct than one of the most winning GMs of the modern era.


You're misreading an analogy. It's really that simple.

And Mallet makes no sense at all.
 
This is just like what happened last year this time in here`````and look at what that turns out, we really know nothing about drafting and BB konws it all````

Last year, people were fine with the draft after day 2.
 
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Oh yeah, nothing is guaranteed...so stop making it like drafting a player where there is an absolute hole (4th RB) that he may be able to fill is a bad thing.
That hole at running back can be filled by an undrafted free agent who will be no higher than fourth on the New England Patriots running back depth chart.

Oh and all of these draft experts besides a few with inside information are using their opinions just like you are, so who cares if Mayock rated Ridley as a 6th rounder or Boling as a 3rd rounder. The Pats clearly thought Ridley was worth more than a 6th rounder, so they drafted him.
Meanwhile there is a huge hole at right offensive guard which has not been addressed via the 2011 NFL Draft due to the retirement of Stephen Neal.

Remember when all of the draft experts thought the Vollmer pick was awful and a complete reach. Hmm, how did that turn out? Oh yeah, he's one of the top RT's in the league.
Sebastian Vollmer was rated no lower than a late third round draft pick. Drafting a player one round ahead of his draft rating is not such a stretch as opposed to drafting a player three rounds ahead of his draft rating.

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

So get your facts straight with regard to Sebastian Vollmer and the concept of value versus need.
 
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I'm not excited by the ridley pick, and I'm sure it was a reach, but can we stop referncing various mocks like they're some kind of source?

the above linked site has him round 5-6, while I just read he "could be picked in round 4", or something like that from a scouting report on nfl.com(?)
we don't have a 4th, and while I suppose they could've gambled on taking him with their 5th, it's possible there was nobody picked after him at these controversial positions that they were crazy about.

again, I'd think you could find a ridley plenty of places other than the 3rd round, and it's not like we really need the guy, but if they really like him and aren't high on what followed him you're better off reaching than missing.
 
My mantra is did the draft make us substantially better. Did we add 2 or 3 IMPACT players that can take this team to the next level in January. And when I say impact players, I don't mean contributors. McCourty was an impact player. Woodhead was a nice "contributor" Now I don't expect us to add 2 or 3 impact players every draft, but we don't go into EVERY draft with 5 picks in the top 75 every year.

1) As I mentioned in a prior post, last year's draft was widely known to have much more talent top to bottom than this draft. Thus, naturally there will be more impact players. However, how are we sure that no impact players were drafted when none of them have even played one down in the NFL yet.

2) Also, Woodhead wasn't drafted last year. He was picked up after the Jets cut him during the season, so he shouldn't count towards impact players from the draft.

Going into the draft I was fine with trading some of those picks for futures. I was fine with Solder and trading out of 28, especially with what we got in return. I'm actually fine with the Dowling pick. I posted a scenario for picking a top CB in the draft section and justified it...but the CBs considered were Peterson and Smith. 2 BIG CBs with great skills, size and speed. So I'm fine with picking a big CB in the 2nd. But I found it hard to believe that there were teams behind the Pats who were lining up to grab him before middle of the round.

I don't know how anyone can make this assumption, when Aaron Williams went one pick later to Buffalo. I can basically make a similar statement (I find it hard to believe Buffalo wasn't going to take Dowling at 34), but have more actual evidence supporting that statement since Buffalo took a DB with the next pick than you have supporting yours (which is only supported by draft projections by "experts"). Oh wait, since every "draft expert" said Williams should go first, then that means the Patriots were wrong for taking him there instead of trading down to take him.

I wanted that premium from teams who needed to move up. So its not so much we picked a CB, and not so much it was Dowling, but more I felt we had wasted the rare opportunity to have the first pick in the draft on the 2nd day with lots of people needing to move up.

This reasoning is completely fine. I also would've liked to have seen them trade down if they could. However, BB decided Dowling was either more valuable than any additional picks they could get, or the dropoff between DBs on their board was so significant that they could risk dropping down w/o losing their player. They also could've had info that Buffalo also liked Dowling, like they had with Mankins and the 49ers.


I over reacted on Vereen, like I said, he was one of my favorites at RB, but based on everything I had read or seen, I didn't expect him to be the 2nd RB taken and certainly not before Leshure and Daniels. But I DO understand that reaches are sometimes made, and I wouldn't have thought much about until he picked almost immediately picked the 2nd RB

Once again, why was Vereen a reach besides he was projected to be a little later by draft experts?

Ridley's pick was even more perplexing. It seemed to acknowledge that even though we picked Vereen that highly, we needed a bigger RB with a different set of skills. I would think that the 2nd RB off the board would be an every down back. And while BB might not evaluate players the same as everyone else, you can't tell me he wasn't a stretch and by about 2 or 3 rounds.

I agree with your comment about the two having different skillsets, but we still don't know if either won't develop into a every down back. I don't remember that many people thinking that MJD would be a top 5 back the yer he came out, but look at him now. Why can't one of these two become that good if they put the effort in?

Finally a lot of people here defended BB saying that this is a crummy draft and he couldn't find the players he wanted and that was part of reason he moved out. But you can't have it both ways. If the draft was THAT weak. Why didn't he use the currency that he had, and go after the few quality players that he needed. It was like he was at an auction with the most money and STILL didn't buy anything.

Hypothetically if BB thought there were 2 players who were impact players outside the top 5, regardless of position, he had the capability to go get them. And if Solder was one of those players and he need to be at 17 to get him, I would opine that 28, 33, one of the 3rds could have gotten anyone else he wanted.....at least. So saying the draft weak, is....not an excuse.

Saying this draft is weak isn't an excuse, its the truth. Without much question, this draft has been widely mentioned by coaches, scouts, media, etc. as being less talented than last year. If the draft being weaker is the case, then yes one strategy is to trade up to get the higher quality players or the guys you want. However, another strategy that is just as sound is to trade down to get the guys you want if you think others have them rated lower while trading into the next draft especially if you think that next year will be more talented or have more prospects that fit your system.

People just need to realize that there are more than one draft strategies a team can take. Thus, the Pats doing something different then you think they should doesn't make what they did wrong or stupid or whatever other adjective has been thrown around by the chicken littles. All it makes it is different.
 
I'm not excited by the ridley pick, and I'm sure it was a reach, but can we stop referencing various mocks like they're some kind of source?
Then I guess you completely miss the concept of draft value.
 
I'd advise everyone to listen to the Pats Propaganda podcast from yesterday, some great objectivity there and i agree with a lot of their thoughts

I think theres several points

Firstly people need to realize the pats dont mock drafts like the fan does. They dont see players as 3rd, 4th, 5th rd picks whatever, they have a board with scores and if a player they score highly is there they will take him, they dont care less what round he was 'projected' to go in. This was the case with Vereen and Ridley

Second they obviously didnt like this DE or OLB class at the top or the guys they did like were gone or they couldnt trade up. Again these guys have detailed scouting reports, they work guys evaluate based on whats there already. Personally i think BB likes what he has in the young DL's like Love, Brace and Deaderick and new guys like Stroud and Moore. OLB i will admit is thin but theres tomorrow and FA. BB said in his presser that 2012 looks a much deeper class

Thirdly with Solder, Vereen and Ridley it's clear were becoming a much bigger offense with more focus on the run, the lack of any extra WR's seems to back this up. Just as everyone else goes pass first with smaller LB's/DL's were going back to the run, maybe BB saw that as the killer against the Jets. With our 2 huge tackles plus the big TE's we should see a lot more ground action i think. Vereen is the FB type, short yardage guy, our John Kuhn type

Dowling I like, I see him as the long term FS,and he'll get reps this year. Merriweather is gone in 2012 and i wouldn't be at all surprised to see him traded once the lockouts over and someone like Weddle being bought in.

Mallet im torn on, i see why they did at as the BPA and its a low risk/high reward type deal. I think we'll warm up to in time

Finally the draft isnt finished nor is FA. We could get a OG and an OLB tomorrow. FA we could get some decent experience in. Next year we have 2x 1s and 2x 2's in a much deeper class (Mike Brewster please)

The sky is NOT falling and the draft wasnt squandered. I for one am looking forward to see a real balanced offense next year with the RB stable, Hernandez fit, and Tate/Price getting more time
 
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Then I guess you completely miss the concept of draft value.



Value has nothing at all to do with generic boards, it only has to do with specific team boards and whether or not they are following them or ignoring them.
 
That hole at running back can be filled by an undrafted free agent who will be no higher than fourth on the New England Patriots running back depth chart.

Meanwhile there is a huge hole at right offensive guard which has not been addressed via the 2011 NFL Draft due to the retirement of Stephen Neal.

Yes there are UDFAs that end up working out, but for every one that works out there are 10-20 that don't. But guess what, the guard position has just as good of a chance to be filled by a UDA as does the RB position. All you have to do is start naming off of the interior lineman the Pats have coached up that were originally UDFA. Plus the starting guard position can be filled by a veteran in FA (which would be preferential to drafting and hoping a 3rd rounder and hoping he works out). The same goes for OLB and DE (although they already grabbed Stroud to be a DE). Maybe you forgot that free agency still needs to happen, and that the draft is the only way to fill a position.


Sebastian Vollmer was rated no lower than a late third round draft pick. Drafting a player one round ahead of his draft rating is not such a stretch as opposed to drafting a player three rounds ahead of his draft rating.

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

So get your facts straight with regard to Sebastian Vollmer and the concept of value versus need.

Oh god, not another poster who believes everything that draft sites say. Guess what though, you need to reread that link you posted. They mention Vollmer to be projected between rounds 3-4 and not late 3rd at the latest as you mentioned. So get your facts straight before trying to make a point. (Btw I'd love to see your reaction to the Vollmer pick form that draft...99.9% guaranteed that you overreacted and made a similar reach, bad pick comments about that one too).

But how about we forget what all of these draft "experts" and you think because your opinions mean jack since I don't see BB or any other team asking for your opinion or their opinion on what they should do. All that matters is that the Pats were comfortable taking Vollmer in the 2nd and Ridley in the 3rd. In both cases, the team decided that it was more important to "reach" for a player instead of trying to wait to grab him with their next pick (3rd round for Vollmer and 5th for Ridley) because who knows if someone else was also high on one of them. Guess what, they were right about Vollmer and the jury is out about Ridley since he hasn't played a down.
 
I'd advise everyone to listen to the Pats Propaganda podcast from yesterday, some great objectivity there and i agree with a lot of their thoughts

I think theres several points

Firstly people need to realize the pats dont mock drafts like the fan does. They dont see players as 3rd, 4th, 5th rd picks whatever, they have a board with scores and if a player they score highly is there they will take him, they dont care less what round he was 'projected' to go in. This was the case with Vereen and Ridley

Second they obviously didnt like this DE or OLB class at the top or the guys they did like were gone or they couldnt trade up. Again these guys have detailed scouting reports, they work guys evaluate based on whats there already. Personally i think BB likes what he has in the young DL's like Love, Brace and Deaderick and new guys like Stroud and Moore. OLB i will admit is thin but theres tomorrow and FA. BB said in his presser that 2012 looks a much deeper class

Thirdly with Solder, Vereen and Ridley it's clear were becoming a much bigger offense with more focus on the run, the lack of any extra WR's seems to back this up. Just as everyone else goes pass first with smaller LB's/DL's were going back to the run, maybe BB saw that as the killer against the Jets. With our 2 huge tackles plus the big TE's we should see a lot more ground action i think. Vereen is the FB type, short yardage guy, our John Kuhn type

Dowling I like, I see him as the long term FS,and he'll get reps this year. Merriweather is gone in 2012 and i wouldn't be at all surprised to see him traded once the lockouts over and someone like Weddle being bought in.

Mallet im torn on, i see why they did at as the BPA and its a low risk/high reward type deal. I think we'll warm up to in time

Finally the draft isnt finished nor is FA. We could get a OG and an OLB tomorrow. FA we could get some decent experience in. Next year we have 2x 1s and 2x 2's in a much deeper class (Mike Brewster please)

The sky is NOT falling and the draft wasnt squandered. I for one am looking forward to see a real balanced offense next year with the RB stable, Hernandez fit, and Tate/Price getting more time

Can this be nominated as the best post this offseason? Maybe paste it as a sticky for everyone to read for the next 2-3 days until the draft talk starts to die down?
 
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