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2019 OTAs/Minicamp Thread


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I'm not a big fan of that site. It often differs from draftscout.com, mockdraftables, the Combine profile pages themselves, etc. I don't think it's the most accurate database, unfortunately. :(
OK.

I don't dispute that Thomas had 32 1/2in hands. Just interesting how disparate the data is.
 
Coaching and the greatest QB of all time. Please stop trying to tell us that the Patriots are so much better at managing the roster. They do "okay" but with Brady and Belichick, ****ty roster moves can be overcome over and over again. We continue to see this happen.

This is absurd on so many levels. BB is not only the GOAT coach but one of the greatest GMs/roster builders of all time. An elite QB alone is no guarantee for success and certainly not for sustained excellence since 2010.
 
Really?

My guess is that the patriots prefer Croston and Cajuste to the UDFA's, and likely to any of the free agent OT's available.

We have no need to look for an IOL. We have Thuney, Mason, Frodo, Andrews and Karras, although Belichick is always looking for an upgrade. As a possible example, we may be looking for a potential starting OG to compete with Frodo this year and next.
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OFFENSIVE TACKLE
We have lost our swing OT, a vet who could back up at any position, and could have competed for a starting spot in 2020.

There is NO panic here at patsfans. The reason is straightforward. We presume that Bill will do the best he can in adding a veteran OT. The alternative is Cajuste and Croston, not terrible if Wynn is in top form in camp. Obviously, the team will be looking for possible trades though the trade deadline, although we could be be fine if the top 3 are ready to play.

Good question. That's certainly what I would be doing if I had such a gaping hole in my depth chart, at whatever position it might be.
 
OK.

I don't dispute that Thomas had 32 1/2in hands. Just interesting how disparate the data is.

Oh, no question that it's not a quality-controlled environment. You're absolutely correct that it's all somewhat unreliable data. I'm sure the people measuring think they're doing a fine job, but other than a centralized standard for a couple hundred players (the Combine), the rest of the measuring and timing is performed by dozens and dozens of scouts who all probably learned a different set of rules for how they measure.

What I find more interesting is looking at general correlation trends between measurements and performance; granted, individual measurements may not be accurate, but the aggregate of data points can give a relatively reliable basis for running regression analysis. Turns out there's not a lot of support for the idea that longer limbs = better players. Yes, long arms can give more margin for error in creating space and landing an effective punch, but timing, hand placement, technique, quickness, core strength, etc, are always more important for success.

Anecdotally, I've done a fair bit of hand to hand sparring and also swordfighting (from traditional foil fencing to German broadsword in the HEMA tradition), and while reach can help at times, it's not always the great equalizer that people assume. I'm about 5'8, and my main sparring partners are 6'5 and 6'2, so I'm always at a reach disadvantage, but whether armed or unarmed, I can make up for the difference with footwork, core power, body positioning, efficiency and quickness of movement, craftiness, etc. I don't lose very much. ;)
 
This is absurd on so many levels. BB is not only the GOAT coach but one of the greatest GMs/roster builders of all time. An elite QB alone is no guarantee for success and certainly not for sustained excellence since 2010.

Agreed. Beyond being the GOAT coach, I think he is one of the best drafters overall, given what he has to work with (drafting consistently at the bottom of each round plus having first round picks stolen by he-who-shall-not-be-named). However, the draft is a bit of a crap shoot with everyone, and GMs who appear to be draft wizards for few years in a row can end up with several years of lousy drafts later on (Carroll with the Seahawks, Newsome with the Ravens, etc.). So: BB does very well given that he drafts at the end of each round, but he strikes out plenty just as every other GM does.

But where BB really is heads and shoulders above other GMs is his roster management with respect to free agents and UDFA, what he does is simply remarkable. Most notable is the way that he trades a low draft pick for a player on the last year of his contract and then get that draft pick back as a Compensatory pick. IMHO his roster management skills are comparable to his coaching skills, outstanding. He makes mistakes but they are few and far between. Just look at last year, he brings in Brown for a 3rd round draft pick that he will recoup as a compensatory pick, a reliable veteran corner who played extremely well especially in the Super Bowl, a serviceable swing backup tackle, and that doesn't even count bringing in a UDFA CB that looks like a future star, a RB that transformed the team, a LB that looked like a revelation before injury, and what is expected to be a cornerstone on the offensive line. It is no accident it lead to another ring last year.
 
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This is absurd on so many levels. BB is not only the GOAT coach but one of the greatest GMs/roster builders of all time. An elite QB alone is no guarantee for success and certainly not for sustained excellence since 2010.

Right, I also included great coaching, perhaps the best coaching ever seen in the NFL. It allows for poor drafting and talent acquisitions to be overcome.
 
poor drafting and talent acquisitions

I think this is where we diverge. Everyone has their misses, but look over the roster, and you'll see that their success is due to the way that Belichick has hand-crafted the team.
 
I think this is where we diverge. Everyone has their misses, but look over the roster, and you'll see that their success is due to the way that Belichick has hand-crafted the team.

I think Belichick has been really good the last two years. That doesn't mean he didn't have droughts that span a number of years, highlighted with head scratcher picks that then go on and prove why they were head scratcher picks.
 
Right, I also included great coaching, perhaps the best coaching ever seen in the NFL. It allows for poor drafting and talent acquisitions to be overcome.

What poor drafting ? Who in the league has been consistently better at drafting given the constraints ? Seriously who ?

I think Belichick has been really good the last two years. That doesn't mean he didn't have droughts that span a number of years, highlighted with head scratcher picks that then go on and prove why they were head scratcher picks.

And what team hasn't ?

Guess what.. Drafting is a general ****show full of incomplete information and projection. Who have the drafting "geniuses" like Schneider or Newsome gotten for the Seahawks or Ravens in the last 5 years ? If you think you will have success stories every year and not the more likely ebb and flow then the problem is more probably with you.


Nobody except the Eagles can come even close to the general talent acquisition through trades or FA that BB has had. He has been nailing it on all fronts relative to the rest of the league.

This narrative that the coaching is overcoming the poor roster building might be the most laughable thing I have read here in a while. There is nobody better in the league at constructing a roster from #1 to #53 (or even beyond with the shadow roster) than BB.
 
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Right, I also included great coaching, perhaps the best coaching ever seen in the NFL. It allows for poor drafting and talent acquisitions to be overcome.

The problem I have with this argument, is it completely removes "ability to accept coaching" as one of the key factors when evaluating a potential draftee. In order for BB to successfully coach up "lesser" talent, he needs to correctly identify the players that he feels he can coach. He can't take players that have less talent AND are stubborn pains in the ass and still make it work. He knows how to find his guys, and the results speak for themselves.

As for the Brady angle? I love Tom. He's the greatest of all time. But the BB detractors have elevated Brady now to this football Jesus that only ever loses because his GM has given him **** around him. I will never believe that. He's great, but he's not SO much better than everyone who's ever lived that he could win 6 Super Bowls (2 more than the previous GOAT, with three more appearances on top of that) with a mediocre surrounding cast.
 
I think Belichick has been really good the last two years. That doesn't mean he didn't have droughts that span a number of years, highlighted with head scratcher picks that then go on and prove why they were head scratcher picks.

Bill will always have the final decision with the draft, FA's, etc...I think Nick and Josh have more input then they had previously. IMO were seeing that with recent drafts and FA's.
 
This is absurd on so many levels. BB is not only the GOAT coach but one of the greatest GMs/roster builders of all time. An elite QB alone is no guarantee for success and certainly not for sustained excellence since 2010.

It's not absurd on any level. This discussion has been had about a million times. You're zero for one million. Getting that abomination of a defense to the 2011 SB is always going to be incontrovertible proof that you're talking out of your ass on the subject, and it's just one example of many.
 
I guess the measurements are all BS. This one had 33.75

Joe Thomas | OT | Wisconsin - NFL Combine Results

I have no idea who runs that site. I looked at some others and the info is only partially correct.

For instance, they list Sony Michel at 5'11 and not 5'10 5/8.
They have Isaiah Wynn at 6'3 whereas every other source has him at 6'2 6/8
I looked at Joe Staley, and the site you posted has his hand size and arm size different than other sources.
 
Saw chung is back and attending otas. I thought he'd be ot longer.
 
It's not absurd on any level. This discussion has been had about a million times. You're zero for one million. Getting that abomination of a defense to the 2011 SB is always going to be incontrovertible proof that you're talking out of your ass on the subject, and it's just one example of many.

Deus - You're the last person to claim that Luuked is "talking out his ass" on any subject football related.

The 2011 defense wasn't an abomination. But you're too arrogant and ignorant to admit that..
 
I have no idea who runs that site. I looked at some others and the info is only partially correct.

For instance, they list Sony Michel at 5'11 and not 5'10 5/8.
They have Isaiah Wynn at 6'3 whereas every other source has him at 6'2 6/8
I looked at Joe Staley, and the site you posted has his hand size and arm size different than other sources.
Strange.
 
Deus - You're the last person to claim that Luuked is "talking out his ass" on any subject football related.

The 2011 defense wasn't an abomination. But you're too arrogant and ignorant to admit that..
Yes, it was. If you think it wasn’t, then you’re either kidding yourself, have some early onset dementia, or just don’t know anything about defense. Either way, that defense was terrible. Credit to Bill that he recognized that and went about fixing it with wholesale changes on that side of the ball as early as that offseason.
 
But where BB really is heads and shoulders above other GMs is his roster management with respect to free agents and UDFA, what he does is simply remarkable. Most notable is the way that he trades a low draft pick for a player on the last year of his contract and then get that draft pick back as a Compensatory pick. IMHO his roster management skills are comparable to his coaching skills, outstanding. He makes mistakes but they are few and far between. Just look at last year, he brings in Brown for a 3rd round draft pick that he will recoup as a compensatory pick, a reliable veteran corner who played extremely well especially in the Super Bowl, a serviceable swing backup tackle, and that doesn't even count bringing in a UDFA CB that looks like a future star, a RB that transformed the team, a LB that looked like a revelation before injury, and what is expected to be a cornerstone on the offensive line. It is no accident it lead to another ring last year.

I would add that what makes him so good at roster management is that he will not overreach. He is very disciplined, and once a player exceeds the value assigned to his position, he is let go via FA, traded, or cut.

I think that part of the reason that the cap space gets out of control so quickly with so many teams around the league is that GMs are scared to death of losing good talent and getting reamed for doing so, so they overpay.
 
This is absurd on so many levels. BB is not only the GOAT coach but one of the greatest GMs/roster builders of all time. An elite QB alone is no guarantee for success and certainly not for sustained excellence since 2010.

Right, that is why we saw Edelman playing CB...Patriots have held the season together with smoke and mirrors a number of times.
 
Deus - You're the last person to claim that Luuked is "talking out his ass" on any subject football related.

The 2011 defense wasn't an abomination. But you're too arrogant and ignorant to admit that..

Are you kidding me? The 2011 defense was terrible
2011 Final Stats: Patriots Defense Ranks 31st in the NFL

Basically, they got bailed out by turnovers, which is great. But, they had no business being in the superbowl
 
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