RKK HOF Semi-Finalist [12/3 update: finalist]

[reflexblue]

Yeah, great story about the Sullivans turning $25,000 into.......... (checking notes) a bankruptcy of - (that's NEGATIVE) $126 million. Have any good stock tips from George Santos?

The $126 Million Fumble

Billy Sullivan didn't make it to Super Bowl XXII in San Diego. Instead, Sullivan, the 72-year-old owner of the New England Patriots, was holed up in his

vault.si.com

Otis made ~50% for his two years, but Kraft built the franchise value up a 30+ factor, without burdening the fans with PSL's or the Commonwealth with hundreds of millions of dollars of public costs - - he is the UNICORN. Oh, and by the way, his franchise put on the greatest 20 year dynasty in NFL history.

Any questions?

Jesus, your still alive

 

[signbabybrady]

Jesus, your still alive

Jesus died for our sins a long time ago

 

[The Brandon Five]

A 4.7 forty for a WR is hard to get around. Christ I ran a 4.8. But so did Rodney Harrison who managed a long and close to HOF career by overcoming his lack of raw speed, by great instincts and anticipation and force of will.

But to make this team, this kid will have to do something great on ST's if he is going to make this team. He has to follow Jules' roadmap and become a punt returner and excel with his good hands and short area quickness. He is already way ahead of Jules as a receiver.

He DID look faster on film. Is that 40 time real. However, it's a great story and he will be a binky favorite in TC, but I can't get passed the 4.7. That's the same speed as our 265lb UDFA TE ran.

As with all these kids, from Campbell on down - We shall see.

Not just "hired Bill Belichick"... gave up a 1st to hire him. It's not like BB was a huge success in his first stop either. Ballsy move that paid off.

Side note: BB's CLE tenure gets misrepresented a lot. He took over a terrible team, they got better each year over the first 4 years, culminating in a playoff win. At that point you have a bad record because of the losing seasons but it was steady progress record wise each year. Then in year 5, he was 4-4 before the owner announced the team was moving after the season, chaos ensued and they lost 7 out of their last 8 after the announcement. Tough situation. The record was awful, but they had a pretty solid multi year rebuild and your records will always be bad during the early years in that and then he got his legs cut out from under him once it clicked and he'd have improved his record. So I get why Kraft gave him a second shot.

The key wasn't the tenure in Cleveland. It was what happened in New England in 1996. Belichick helped that team come together defensively. They went from 6-10 to the Super Bowl. There's a famous photo of Kraft and Belichick talking about things after Parcells left. They're sitting in a car and the conversation lasted for 3+ hours.

The key thing that happened in Cleveland that made a difference is that Belichick was finally allowed to cut ties with favorite son Bernie Kosar. The fans hated him for it, and Modell prevented it from happening for an entire year before finally letting go of Bernie.

Vinny Testaverde had an excellent year, and when he went to the Jets, Vinny T. actually started the season 12-1 before Keyshawn cried.

The remnant of that Cleveland team became the Ravens who fielded one of the best defenses in NFL history in 1999 2000.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

The remnant of that Cleveland team became the Ravens who fielded one of the best defenses in NFL history in 1999.

Eh that’s stretching it. The only player who started a single game for that defense who wasn’t acquired AFTER the move and after BB was Rob Burnett. And Rob Burnett was actually drafted in 1990, the year before Belichick got there. He didn’t acquire a single player who started a game on that defense. Maybe there were offensive holdovers (I didn’t check), but they sucked on that side anyway. Giving BB any credit for those Ravens defenses is irrational.

But overall in CLE his first 4 years had a decent improvement arc before that unique fourth year. It’s not like he was some total flop of a coach the way some try to paint his record there.

 

[Triumph]

"Built a privately funded stadium" is propably what's been keeping him out...

All the cheating accusations and then being caught in a FLA police sting.

 

[NFL Mystique]

19 division titles under his watch
28-3 comeback

 

[Ring 6]

19 division titles under his watch
28-3 comeback

You think Bob Kraft had a hand in the 28-3 comeback?

 

[lancerman]

You think Bob Kraft had a hand in the 28-3 comeback?

He funded and approved every single person being on the team for that. He had to review and sign off or decline every single player on that team and every member of the coaching staff that contributed.

 

[signbabybrady]

You think Bob Kraft had a hand in the 28-3 comeback?

Even if just entertainment factor Arthur Blank did lol.

 

[Ring 6]

He funded and approved every single person being on the team for that. He had to review and sign off or decline every single player on that team and every member of the coaching staff that contributed.

No Bill Belichick made those decisions not Robert Kraft. If you think Kraft deserved induction in the HOF as a GM good for you, ill just laugh.

 

[lancerman]

No Bill Belichick made those decisions not Robert Kraft. If you think Kraft deserved induction in the HOF as a GM good for you, ill just laugh.

Doesn't matter. Kraft's the owner. Every move Belichick ever made in his time here, Kraft had to review and decide if he wanted to do it. Even if he had a tendency to say yes, at the end of the day, he was the owner and got the final call. If Belichick wanted something and Kraft said no, Belichick did not have the capability to do it anyways every move Belichick made or wasn't allowed to make came with Kraft's sign off.

And before you say "oh well Bill was successful so any team would have been happy to go along with what he said", the Patriots were a very archaic front office for years in terms of giving the HC both coaching and team building responsibilities. No other owner in the league had allowed that for a long time besides Kraft. Most wanted a modernized NFL front office. Even the current dynasty doesn't do it.

Oh and when every single team in the league had the opportunity to hire Bill Belichick and adopt that model when he became a free agent, the whole league passed. There's one other active owner in the HOF right now, and that HOF owner outright fired a coach who just won two Super Bowls so he could maintain control of the team.

So yeah got a rarity in Kraft who set things up so we could get what we got. He kept the team in this location which would absolutely resulted in none of what happened transpiring, I get you don't live here, but another potential owner in St Louis is not making the hires Kraft did, he fired Carroll despite him not being dreadful because he realized it wasn't going to work and didn't want to wait until the ship sunk like many would, he identified Belichick years in advanced, he went against the league and his peers advice and paid extra for Belichick, he gave Belichick the ability to run the team how he wanted, he covered for Bill when he got in hot water with the owner, he fostered a strong relationship with the new QB which smoothed out a lot of the issues the QB and coach had that kept the ship running, he signed off on Belichick's decisions that he thought were good, he vetoed Belichick trying to move off from Brady once which likely saved a SB for the team. He fired Bill when it was time. He didn't drag out the Mayo mistake, he got Vrabel and allowed the team to come back to success.

At the end of the day, the owner is the most powerful guy in the org. Everything runs through them and they can yes or no to absolutely every single option put in front of them. The Patriots first SB appearance of Kraft's era was before Bill was even a HC. He pretty much instantly impacted and changed the course of the franchise

 

[Ring 6]

Doesn't matter. Kraft's the owner. Every move Belichick ever made in his time here, Kraft had to review and decide if he wanted to do it. Even if he had a tendency to say yes, at the end of the day, he was the owner and got the final call. If Belichick wanted something and Kraft said no, Belichick did not have the capability to do it anyways every move Belichick made or wasn't allowed to make came with Kraft's sign off.

And before you say "oh well Bill was successful so any team would have been happy to go along with what he said", the Patriots were a very archaic front office for years in terms of giving the HC both coaching and team building responsibilities. No other owner in the league had allowed that for a long time besides Kraft. Most wanted a modernized NFL front office. Even the current dynasty doesn't do it.

Oh and when every single team in the league had the opportunity to hire Bill Belichick and adopt that model when he became a free agent, the whole league passed. There's one other active owner in the HOF right now, and that HOF owner outright fired a coach who just won two Super Bowls so he could maintain control of the team.

So yeah got a rarity in Kraft who set things up so we could get what we got. He kept the team in this location which would absolutely resulted in none of what happened transpiring, I get you don't live here, but another potential owner in St Louis is not making the hires Kraft did, he fired Carroll despite him not being dreadful because he realized it wasn't going to work and didn't want to wait until the ship sunk like many would, he identified Belichick years in advanced, he went against the league and his peers advice and paid extra for Belichick, he gave Belichick the ability to run the team how he wanted, he covered for Bill when he got in hot water with the owner, he fostered a strong relationship with the new QB which smoothed out a lot of the issues the QB and coach had that kept the ship running, he signed off on Belichick's decisions that he thought were good, he vetoed Belichick trying to move off from Brady once which likely saved a SB for the team. He fired Bill when it was time. He didn't drag out the Mayo mistake, he got Vrabel and allowed the team to come back to success.

At the end of the day, the owner is the most powerful guy in the org. Everything runs through them and they can yes or no to absolutely every single option put in front of them. The Patriots first SB appearance of Kraft's era was before Bill was even a HC. He pretty much instantly impacted and changed the course of the franchise

Belichick didn’t run decisions by Kraft for approval, Kraft gave him total autonomy.

But I guess you support CEOs being paid multi millions and the people working getting minimum wage as fair because the CEO has final say.


I will continue to believe success on the field is about players and coaches and not cede the credit to someone because he could have been disruptive but chose to stay out of the way.

 

[upstater1]

Eh that’s stretching it. The only player who started a single game for that defense who wasn’t acquired AFTER the move and after BB was Rob Burnett. And Rob Burnett was actually drafted in 1990, the year before Belichick got there. He didn’t acquire a single player who started a game on that defense. Maybe there were offensive holdovers (I didn’t check), but they sucked on that side anyway. Giving BB any credit for those Ravens defenses is irrational.

But overall in CLE his first 4 years had a decent improvement arc before that unique fourth year. It’s not like he was some total flop of a coach the way some try to paint his record there.

More importantly, New England actually imported some of those Cleveland players and had success with them, not only Vinny T., but Anthony Pleasant, Pio Sagapolutele, and even Tom Tupa

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

All the cheating accusations and then being caught in a FLA police sting.

And a crapload of jealousy......6 rings, 10 Super Bowl Appearances and yes the scandals...

 

[lancerman]

Belichick didn’t run decisions by Kraft for approval, Kraft gave him total autonomy.

But I guess you support CEOs being paid multi millions and the people working getting minimum wage as fair because the CEO has final say.


I will continue to believe success on the field is about players and coaches and not cede the credit to someone because he could have been disruptive but chose to stay out of the way.

I love how you immediately went wild with strawman’s the minute you got pushback. Never change lol.

Also no sorry, like everyone else, Bill Belichick had to run everything by his boss. Kraft has to agree to pay all these people and is the final signature on transactions, just like every other team and every other business.

 

[Ring 6]

I love how you immediately went wild with strawman’s the minute you got pushback. Never change lol.

Also no sorry, like everyone else, Bill Belichick had to run everything by his boss. Kraft has to agree to pay all these people and is the final signature on transactions, just like every other team and every other business.

There was no strawman.

You have to divorce yourself from reality to make your argument. It is well known that Kraft gave autonomy to Belichick, he had said as much many times. If he made every final decision Brady would have been benched in 2001.

 

[lancerman]

There was no strawman.

You have to divorce yourself from reality to make your argument. It is well known that Kraft gave autonomy to Belichick, he had said as much many times. If he made every final decision Brady would have been benched in 2001.

You're second sentence was a radical jump to a made up assumption about my viewpoints on a separate matter to gaslight and detract from the discussion at hand. Classic strawman. Which is your typical playbook so it's not surprising.

Also Kraft gave his opinion on Brady vs Bledsoe in 2001. He still signed off on Belichick playing Brady because Belichick believed in it. If Kraft said "no you are starting Bledsoe" then Belichick was either starting him, quitting, or getting fired if he tried to. Kraft evaluated Belichick's reasoning and okay'd what he wanted. At the end of the day, if Kraft says no, Belichick has to deal with it. There's multiple times Kraft dictated to Belichick a decision he didn't want to make and had to anyways because Kraft made him. Like firing Lombardi, giving Guerrero back his access, forcing Antonio Brown off the team after the assault allegations, getting rid of Patricia as OC. Those are just major times that we know about. Kraft may have chosen to give Belichick leeway and sided with him in most instance, but every major decision crossed Kraft's desk and he had to sign off on it. Every player Belichick brought on the team came with Kraft by right having final approval power. So all the times he sides with him and the times he didn't all culminate as a major part of the final result and not every owner was going to handle things the same way as Kraft.

You should learn how the real world works. No employee does things that his owner doesn't want and lasts.

 

[maust]

You're second sentence was a radical jump...

Dude... you know better...

 

[The Brandon Five]

Eh that’s stretching it. The only player who started a single game for that defense who wasn’t acquired AFTER the move and after BB was Rob Burnett. And Rob Burnett was actually drafted in 1990, the year before Belichick got there. He didn’t acquire a single player who started a game on that defense. Maybe there were offensive holdovers (I didn’t check), but they sucked on that side anyway. Giving BB any credit for those Ravens defenses is irrational.

But overall in CLE his first 4 years had a decent improvement arc before that unique fourth year. It’s not like he was some total flop of a coach the way some try to paint his record there.

Ozzie Newsome comes to mind

 

[Ring 6]

You're second sentence was a radical jump to a made up assumption about my viewpoints on a separate matter to gaslight and detract from the discussion at hand. Classic strawman. Which is your typical playbook so it's not surprising.

Also Kraft gave his opinion on Brady vs Bledsoe in 2001. He still signed off on Belichick playing Brady because Belichick believed in it. If Kraft said "no you are starting Bledsoe" then Belichick was either starting him, quitting, or getting fired if he tried to. Kraft evaluated Belichick's reasoning and okay'd what he wanted. At the end of the day, if Kraft says no, Belichick has to deal with it. There's multiple times Kraft dictated to Belichick a decision he didn't want to make and had to anyways because Kraft made him. Like firing Lombardi, giving Guerrero back his access, forcing Antonio Brown off the team after the assault allegations, getting rid of Patricia as OC. Those are just major times that we know about. Kraft may have chosen to give Belichick leeway and sided with him in most instance, but every major decision crossed Kraft's desk and he had to sign off on it. Every player Belichick brought on the team came with Kraft by right having final approval power. So all the times he sides with him and the times he didn't all culminate as a major part of the final result and not every owner was going to handle things the same way as Kraft.

You should learn how the real world works. No employee does things that his owner doesn't want and lasts.

That’s not what a straw man is. That’s pointing out what your comment that he who signs the check deserves all the credit means in an analogius example to prove how foolish it is.

Kraft has been clear that football decisions were up to Belichick.That is an example of Kraft disagreeing and belichick having the decision making power. Kraft has said many times that is his he runs all of his companies. He hires manager and gives them the power to run the show. You know that but are pretending not to because you’ve tapped your self into a corner.
You are lying or out of touch if you think Kraft made personnel decisions

The way the real world works is people are hired and given authority. People given authority and paid lie belichick was paid aren’t micro managed like apparently you are in your little job.

Every piece of evidence, data and commentary that exists proves you are wrong.