Patriots Hall of Fame Finalists - Edelman, Mankins & Vinatieri (Vinatieri vs Edelman)

[signbabybrady]

Kickers have the opportunity to turn failed drives into points. So, in the moment, when it's time to do their job, they are.

We were lucky Adam was up to the task in the snow bowl, up to the task in 36 & 38, and in 39, while there was still time to play left on the clock, his final fg was the margin of victory.

You put a list out asking who would you place Adam ahead of - relative to the time period - I would put him ahead of everyone not named Tom Rodney Willie or Tedy - he was that crucial to the success of the team in dynasty 1.

Troy, Patten, Branch, Light, Antowain, Lawyer (01), Seymour, Just to name a few.

 

[Pape]

Troy, Patten, Branch, Light, Antowain, Lawyer (01), Seymour, Just to name a few.

I am not going to argue with your list. If thats how you see it, cool. My list, thats the way I see it.

I was there are 36. When AV walked out onto the field there was a palpable feeling in the air, a tension rising... building until it exploded with the successful kick. So much pressure.

To me, the guy was as clutch as anyone not named Brady out there.

Then he did it again two years later.

 

[bormio]

Edelman played his whole career here. All 3 are slam dunks, but in a close call, it matters. Second, no damn kicker, no matter how great, should go in over Jules. If not the greatest WR for the organization while playing for the Patriots, he was the most physical - by far.

 

[signbabybrady]

I am not going to argue with your list. If thats how you see it, cool. My list, thats the way I see it.

I was there are 36. When AV walked out onto the field there was a palpable feeling in the air, a tension rising... building until it exploded with the successful kick. So much pressure.

To me, the guy was as clutch as anyone not named Brady out there.

Then he did it again two years later.

I want AV in the Hall. I just don't feel a kicker had a bigger impact than most of the starters. He's the best kicker ever IMO and belongs in our Hall and hopefully Canton too.

 

[condon84]

I think Adam should eventually make it, but between him and Jules, we gotta go with Jules all day.

Julian was a loyal Patriot, even rejected Brady's offer to join him in Tampa. Meanwhile, Adam signed with our arch-rivals during his prime.

 

[Pape]

I just don't feel a kicker had a bigger impact than most of the starters.

and I believe he did.

6 or one half dozen on that point

we both agree he belongs in the Pats HoF and in Canton.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Here’s the only example you need on how kickers can alter a franchise. Had Adam made the game winning kick in KC and made the multiple attempts he shanked against Buffalo in 1999 (I thought he was shaving points those misses were so bad), the Pats are 10-6 and in the playoffs at the Seahawks. Whether they won or not, Bob wouldn't feel he should fire Carroll. BB either takes the Jets job or steps down and is a DC somewhere else until the NE job opened back up.

Now fast forward to the 1st dynasty where Adam had these franchise altering kicks again. I don't think some realize how much pressure these kickers have on a weekly basis. Their margin of error is very small as they wait on the sidelines until they are relied upon when the offense can't get it done or an extra point/kick off is needed. They are the hero when they make their kicks or kick it deep in opponents territory, but are hated when they miss it or have a poor kick off (Casey Super Bowl 2003).

What's interesting is that Adam was recognized among the best at his position making Pro Bowls and All Pro's during his stint in NE. So it's hard to argue that Adam was just along for the ride. On the other hand, Edelman was not considered that among his peers not making one Pro Bowl or All Pro.

It's clear Bob adopted this one player per year format so he can drag it to have yearly ceremonies. Adam is going to be low on the totem poll because he was a kicker, has been away from the team for 20 years and signed with a bitter rival (beating the Pats in process) on their way to a Super Bowl win.

 

[Ring 6]

Kickers have the opportunity to turn failed drives into points. So, in the moment, when it's time to do their job, they are.

We were lucky Adam was up to the task in the snow bowl, up to the task in 36 & 38, and in 39, while there was still time to play left on the clock, his final fg was the margin of victory.

You put a list out asking who would you place Adam ahead of - relative to the time period - I would put him ahead of everyone not named Tom Rodney Willie or Tedy - he was that crucial to the success of the team in dynasty 1.

Long snappers have the opportunity to name or break a game. Are they as important as QBs?
The qb can’t do anything if the C doesn’t snap the ball to him, so is the c the most important player?

Feel free to think that he was more important than Mike Vrabel, Troy Brown, Richard Seymour, Roman Phifer, Vince Wilfork, Ty Law, Matt Light (and whoever was on the list) but I don’t think you will find football people who agree with you.
On that note, if that is the case why are kickers not drafted in the 1st round?
If K are more valuable than guys who are HOF caliber defensive players and LTs plus K have the longest careers they should be 1st round picks.
Also why don’t they get paid as well?

Food for thought.

 

[signbabybrady]

Long snappers have the opportunity to name or break a game. Are they as important as QBs?
The qb can’t do anything if the C doesn’t snap the ball to him, so is the c the most important player?

Feel free to think that he was more important than Mike Vrabel, Troy Brown, Richard Seymour, Roman Phifer, Vince Wilfork, Ty Law, Matt Light (and whoever was on the list) but I don’t think you will find football people who agree with you.
On that note, if that is the case why are kickers not drafted in the 1st round?
If K are more valuable than guys who are HOF caliber defensive players and LTs plus K have the longest careers they should be 1st round picks.
Also why don’t they get paid as well?

Food for thought.

 

[Ring 6]

Here’s the only example you need on how kickers can alter a franchise. Had Adam made the game winning kick in KC and made the multiple attempts he shanked against Buffalo in 1999 (I thought he was shaving points those misses were so bad), the Pats are 10-6 and in the playoffs at the Seahawks. Whether they won or not, Bob wouldn't feel he should fire Carroll. BB either takes the Jets job or steps down and is a DC somewhere else until the NE job opened back up.

Now fast forward to the 1st dynasty where Adam had these franchise altering kicks again. I don't think some realize how much pressure these kickers have on a weekly basis. Their margin of error is very small as they wait on the sidelines until they are relied upon when the offense can't get it done or an extra point/kick off is needed. They are the hero when they make their kicks or kick it deep in opponents territory, but are hated when they miss it or have a poor kick off (Casey Super Bowl 2003).

What's interesting is that Adam was recognized among the best at his position making Pro Bowls and All Pro's during his stint in NE. So it's hard to argue that Adam was just along for the ride. On the other hand, Edelman was not considered that among his peers not making one Pro Bowl or All Pro.

It's clear Bob adopted this one player per year format so he can drag it to have yearly ceremonies. Adam is going to be low on the totem poll because he was a kicker, has been away from the team for 20 years and signed with a bitter rival (beating the Pats in process) on their way to a Super Bowl win.

People are IMO confusing the importance of a play, in the overall scheme of a game, and the expected success rate, due to it being the last thing that happened.

For example, Vinatieri’s kick !!!!WON THE GAME!!! In SB 36 because if he shanked it we got to OT but Edelmans 9/109 and a TD in a 4 point game were just a contribution, despite being MVP. His miracle catch against Atlanta was nothing more difficult than kicking a FG with a 90% success rate.

We have people telling us in 2001 when we were 5-5 and then won the SB by never allowing more than 17 points again, Seymour, Law, Vrabrl, Phifer etc were not as valuable as the guy who made a FG. (And Vrabel made a hit that led to law getting a pick 6)

I get that this will be a debacle of a discussion because people love Vinatieti and can’t properly value a kicker vs a real player because if it. Ultimately that’s what fans do, they think with their heart.

 

[Ring 6]

Troy, Patten, Branch, Light, Antowain, Lawyer (01), Seymour, Just to name a few.

Law Vrabel wilfork….

 

[Pape]

Long snappers have the opportunity to name or break a game. Are they as important as QBs?
The qb can’t do anything if the C doesn’t snap the ball to him, so is the c the most important player?

Feel free to think that he was more important than Mike Vrabel, Troy Brown, Richard Seymour, Roman Phifer, Vince Wilfork, Ty Law, Matt Light (and whoever was on the list) but I don’t think you will find football people who agree with you.
On that note, if that is the case why are kickers not drafted in the 1st round?
If K are more valuable than guys who are HOF caliber defensive players and LTs plus K have the longest careers they should be 1st round picks.
Also why don’t they get paid as well?

Food for thought.

Sure long snappers can affect a game. Any player can. And no they aren't as important as a QB. But before you role that one out another thousand times, what did I say? In the moment, the kicker is as important as the QB because he is leading the offense.he gets the ball. It's his to make it or shank it.

As for the list, eh, it is what it is. Love roman phifer, but hes not going to make it to the pats hall of fame. The others? Already in, so that's a moot point. But just want to point out wilfork, who did turn out to be a hof caliber player, was only there for 39, so ehhh on that one.. As for "football people" agreeing with me, that is inconsequential. The fact that you feel the need to "appeal to authority" speaks to the weakness of your argument.

And funny you should mention the HoF. Nevermind The PHoF, Adam Vinatieri has a better chance of making it to Canton than most every one on your list.

And you really want to equate draft position to the value of the player? Really? A New England fan is going to play the draft hand? I can name you 199 reasons why that got blown out of the water 25 years ago. And eh, maybe you have forgotten, but Kickers have been drafted in the first round. There are five of them. Food for thought, no?

2

 

[signbabybrady]

And funny you should mention the HoF. Nevermind The PHoF, Adam Vinatieri has a better chance of making it to Canton than most every one on your list.

They don't like Patriots so they probably won't let Vinatieri in. At least not for a long time. And it's complete BS.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure long snappers can affect a game. Any player can. And no they aren't as important as a QB. But before you role that one out another thousand times, what did I say? In the moment, the kicker is as important as the QB because he is leading the offense.he gets the ball. It's his to make it or shank it.

As for the list, eh, it is what it is. Love roman phifer, but hes not going to make it to the pats hall of fame. The others? Already in, so that's a moot point. But just want to point out wilfork, who did turn out to be a hof caliber player, was only there for 39, so ehhh on that one.. As for "football people" agreeing with me, that is inconsequential. The fact that you feel the need to "appeal to authority" speaks to the weakness of your argument.

And funny you should mention the HoF. Nevermind The PHoF, Adam Vinatieri has a better chance of making it to Canton than most every one on your list.

And you really want to equate draft position to the value of the player? Really? A New England fan is going to play the draft hand? I can name you 199 reasons why that got blown out of the water 25 years ago. And eh, maybe you have forgotten, but Kickers have been drafted in the first round. There are five of them. Food for thought, no?

2

The question wasn’t at that moment, so I’ll assume qualifying your answer means you agree with me and just can’t say the words.

Roman Phifer was vital to those teams. Most underrated guy they had.
Again, you deflect the question of most deserving by saying they are already in so it doesn’t matter. Should I assume the same on this point?
** This seems ti be habit with you. You want to disagree so you move the goalposts and argue something different**

I don’t think you understand what an appeal to authority is. It is using an opinion stated by an authority in place of making an argument.
Stating that your opinion is so beyond what a knowledgable person would think is not an appeal to authority but a commentary of how bad your take is.
For example if you think the world is flat and I stated that any intelligent person would disagree, that’s not an appeal to authority, it’s pointing out anyone who knows anything about the topic would laugh.

I not equating draft position to the value of a player, I am taking the evidence of how football people value players of different positions. Brady didn’t “blow out of the water” the argument that QBs are highly valued.
5 kickers ever drafted in the first round (out of thousands) illustrates that the position is not valued as highly a position players, of which every single position has had multitudes more players drafted in the first round.
As an analogy if 5,000 kids name their favorite sport is and 5 of them say roller derby that is evidence that roller derby is not popular with kids, not a gotcha that all kids surely love it.

 

[Pape]

The question wasn’t at that moment, so I’ll assume qualifying your answer means you agree with me and just can’t say the words.

then you didnt read my post. you assumed.

Roman Phifer was vital to those teams. Most underrated guy they had.

great guy. great player. wont ever make the phof.

Again, you deflect the question of most deserving by saying they are already in so it doesn’t matter. Should I assume the same on this point?
** This seems ti be habit with you. You want to disagree so you move the goalposts and argue something different**

didn't move goal posts i plainly stated what i meany and where i would put adam on your list.when i entered the discussion. If you think thats "moving the goal post" then i don't know what to tell you...

I don’t think you understand what an appeal to authority is. It is using an opinion stated by an authority in place of making an argument.
Stating that your opinion is so beyond what a knowledgable person would think is not an appeal to authority but a commentary of how bad your take is.

saying "football people would disagree" is an appeal to authority. Deny it as much as you want, but everyone who reads it knows exactly what you meant by that.

For example if you think the world is flat and I stated that any intelligent person would disagree, that’s not an appeal to authority, it’s pointing out anyone who knows anything about the topic would laugh.

i don't think the world is flat. Do better with your analogies. Thats just a stupid way to build a straw man, Try harder. But, do it tomorrow, preferably sunday. you've reached your daily limit of responses.

I not equating draft position to the value of a player, I am taking the evidence of how football people value players of different positions. Brady didn’t “blow out of the water” the argument that QBs are highly valued.

Lets see... you said, and I quote:
"On that note, if that is the case why are kickers not drafted in the 1st round?
If K are more valuable than guys who are HOF caliber defensive players and LTs plus K have the longest careers they should be 1st round picks."

Care to back peddle once again, claiming you didn't mean what you so clearly said?

5 kickers ever drafted in the first round (out of thousands) illustrates that the position is not valued as highly a position players, of which every single position has had multitudes more players drafted in the first round.

yeah, well knowing that there were 5 guys who were drafted in R1 beats saying kickers aren't drafted in the first round no matter how you parse it.

As an analogy if 5,000 kids name their favorite sport is and 5 of them say roller derby that is evidence that roller derby is not popular with kids, not a gotcha that all kids surely love it.

This makes absolutely no sense, like the whole "what ever argument" you are trying to make.

thats three, so


³

 

[Ring 6]

then you didnt read my post. you assumed.

great guy. great player. wont ever make the phof.

didn't move goal posts i plainly stated what i meany and where i would put adam on your list.when i entered the discussion. If you think thats "moving the goal post" then i don't know what to tell you...


saying "football people would disagree" is an appeal to authority. Deny it as much as you want, but everyone who reads it knows exactly what you meant by that.


i don't think the world is flat. Do better with your analogies. Thats just a stupid way to build a straw man, Try harder. But, do it tomorrow, preferably sunday. you've reached your daily limit of responses.


Lets see... you said, and I quote:
"On that note, if that is the case why are kickers not drafted in the 1st round?
If K are more valuable than guys who are HOF caliber defensive players and LTs plus K have the longest careers they should be 1st round picks."

Care to back peddle once again, claiming you didn't mean what you so clearly said?


yeah, well knowing that there were 5 guys who were drafted in R1 beats saying kickers aren't drafted in the first round no matter how you parse it.


This makes absolutely no sense, like the whole "what ever argument" you are trying to make.

thats three, so


³

Of course I read it, that how I draw the assumption that when you insist on changing the question in order to be able to disagree, you agree but won’t admit it.

Phifer belongs. He earned it on the field, but he won’t get in because he was only here at the end of his career, but he had just as much impact as bruschi or Vrabel on those rings.

And I was also clear putting a k ahead of those guys is insane. No need to hedge your take with “they are already in so it’s moot”. By the criteria and process for selection, you are wrong.

So you really don’t understand what an appeal to authority is. Ok.

Clearly you don’t understand analogies or straw men either.

That statement doesn’t equate draft slot to the value of a player, it equates draft slot to the people who are paid to build football teams value placed on a POSITION GROUP.
Every point you argue is twisted into something you can disagree with and never addresses the actual statement. Very weak, and very much a waste of time that tunes into this.
You parsing almost every sentence and changing it to fit a narrative. Why waste your time. State your opinion and move on. There is no need to pretend I said or meant something different than I clearly did. It’s a real indication of your low self esteem.

5 kickers in 80-some draft makes my argument, not yours, but again let’s deflect the point to ******** semantics. The last bastion of a losing argument. Well running away after 3 exchanges actually would be.

 

[Pape]

Of course I read it, that how I draw the assumption that when you insist on changing the question in order to be able to disagree, you agree but won’t admit it.

I didn't change anything. you asked i answered.

Phifer belongs. He earned it on the field, but he won’t get in because he was only here at the end of his career, but he had just as much impact as bruschi or Vrabel on those rings.

Does he belong? Has yet to make it to the finalist stage. How long has he been out of football? 20 years now... Guess the "football people" you so highly tout don't agree... See what I did there? An appeal to authority... look familiar?

And I was also clear putting a k ahead of those guys is insane. No need to hedge your take with “they are already in so it’s moot”. By the criteria and process for selection, you are wrong.

And I was clear that I put the kicker ahead of those guys. To demean his contributions is insane. What was it that you said? One good game? Ridiculous.

So you really don’t understand what an appeal to authority is. Ok.

For some reason you are deathly afraid to admit what was plain for everyone to see. I will regret this, but why? why are you so afraid to admit it?

Clearly you don’t understand analogies or straw men either.

lol, okay... more bunk, more of you being deliberately obtuse

That statement doesn’t equate draft slot to the value of a player, it equates draft slot to the people who are paid to build football teams value placed on a POSITION GROUP.

It absolutely does. That is an incontrovertible fact, and apparently an uncomfortable truth for you. got caught with your britches down.

Every point you argue is twisted into something you can disagree with and never addresses the actual statement. Very weak, and very much a waste of time that tunes into this.

I did address your statement in the very first sentence. That you have an extremely hard time dealing with it is baffling.

You parsing almost every sentence and changing it to fit a narrative. Why waste your time. State your opinion and move on.

This, coming from you, is rich. The one guy on this board who is unwilling to ever let things go. And you say this?

There is no need to pretend I said or meant something different than I clearly did. It’s a real indication of your low self esteem.

You are fooling yourself. Some honest advice - Stop lying to yourself. Stop trying to weasel out of your statements.

One of the multitude of indicators of your insincerity when dealing with others who happen to disagree with you are the ad hominem attacks you routinely level in just about every discussion you have. My low self esteem? My dude, the fact that you feel the desperate need to be "right" about everything, that you cannot let things go and as you say "move on" says more about you and your sense of self esteem than any ad hominem attack you can level against me.

5 kickers in 80-some draft makes my argument, not yours, but again let’s deflect the point to ******** semantics. The last bastion of a losing argument.

Facts are facts. You asked why kickers aren't drafted in the first round. Well, they have been. That in no way supports your argument. So you are wrong again. Obfuscate away on that one Mr "I'm not Andy Johnson"

Well running away after 3 exchanges actually would be.

Since you started with the personal attacks right off the bat, I feel no compunction to hold back anymore. I think you are mentally ******ed to some degree. When was it you were first told you were "on the spectrum"? To be clear - That's not an If statement, it is a When statement.

The reason there are rules when it comes to you are simple - you are an ******* who takes any perceived disagreement with your opinion personally and you try to tear into it relentlessly, bullying people who disagree, typically by twisting things people say and "moving goal posts" - everything you accuse me of doing in these exchanges with you. You literally say to me in this post " Why waste your time. State your opinion and move on." I am ****ing gobsmacked that you said this . You telling me to do what you are wholly incapable of doing. You are incapable of letting things go. AND when you get your back to the wall, you start reporting posts to get the heat off. But you can prove me wrong - All you have to do is not reply - Think you can manage to let it go? Nah, neither do I.

The rules of conversing with you were put into place in order to prevent you from wrecking threads as you chase posters through threads. Two or three posts is about all I, and others, can take of your arrogant demeaning nature. So in order to make this place more enjoyable, limiting interactions with you is a necessity. You are really that much of a disagreeable person.

Personally I think you are an incel who cannot relate to other people on a personal level. There is so much rage in your posts, that you are so mad at the world for whatever reason, that you take it out on every one around you. You need pyschiatric help. You need to be in therapy.


1, 2 & 3. I've wasted enough time on you today. You don't want a discussion, you want an argument.

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't change anything. you asked i answered.

Does he belong? Has yet to make it to the finalist stage. How long has he been out of football? 20 years now... Guess the "football people" you so highly tout don't agree... See what I did there? An appeal to authority... look familiar?


And I was clear that I put the kicker ahead of those guys. To demean his contributions is insane. What was it that you said? One good game? Ridiculous.

For some reason you are deathly afraid to admit what was plain for everyone to see. I will regret this, but why? why are you so afraid to admit it?

lol, okay... more bunk, more of you being deliberately obtuse

It absolutely does. That is an incontrovertible fact, and apparently an uncomfortable truth for you. got caught with your britches down.

I did address your statement in the very first sentence. That you have an extremely hard time dealing with it is baffling.

This, coming from you, is rich. The one guy on this board who is unwilling to ever let things go. And you say this?

You are fooling yourself. Some honest advice - Stop lying to yourself. Stop trying to weasel out of your statements.

One of the multitude of indicators of your insincerity when dealing with others who happen to disagree with you are the ad hominem attacks you routinely level in just about every discussion you have. My low self esteem? My dude, the fact that you feel the desperate need to be "right" about everything, that you cannot let things go and as you say "move on" says more about you and your sense of self esteem than any ad hominem attack you can level against me.


Facts are facts. You asked why kickers aren't drafted in the first round. Well, they have been. That in no way supports your argument. So you are wrong again. Obfuscate away on that one Mr "I'm not Andy Johnson"


Since you started with the personal attacks right off the bat, I feel no compunction to hold back anymore. I think you are mentally ******ed to some degree. When was it you were first told you were "on the spectrum"? To be clear - That's not an If statement, it is a When statement.

The reason there are rules when it comes to you are simple - you are an ******* who takes any perceived disagreement with your opinion personally and you try to tear into it relentlessly, typically by twisting things people say and "moving goal posts" - everything you accuse me of doing in these excanges with you. You literally say to me in this post " Why waste your time. State your opinion and move on." I am ****ing gobsmacked that you said this . You telling me to do what you are wholly incapable of doing. You are incapable of letting things go. AND when you get your back to the wall, you start reporting posts to get the heat off. But you can prove me wrong - All you have to do is not reply - Think you can manage to let it go? Nah, neither do I.

The rules of conversing with you were put into place in order to prevent you from wrecking threads as you chase posters through threads. Two or three posts is about all I, and others, can take of your arrogant demeaning nature. So in order to make this place more enjoyable, limiting interactions with you is a necessity. You are really that much of a disagreeable person.

Personally I think you are an incel who cannot relate to other people on a personal level. There is so much rage in your posts, that you are so mad at the world for whatever reason, that you take it out on every one around you. You need pyschiatric help. You need to be in therapy.


1, 2 & 3. I've wasted enough time on you today. You don't want a discussion, you want an argument.

Always the same with you. You start arguments, know you are wrong, twist your answers to avoid admitting it, and then when you can’t lie any more you lash out with personal attacks. You have no character, you would piss yourself if I was in front of you when you said that. You lose.

 

[Pape]

But you can prove me wrong - All you have to do is not reply - Think you can manage to let it go? Nah, neither do I.

Always the same with you. You start arguments, know you are wrong, twist your answers to avoid admitting it, and then when you can’t lie any more you lash out with personal attacks. You have no character, you would piss yourself if I was in front of you when you said that. You lose.

 

[maust]

#asexpected