Who Was Responsible For the 2023 Draft? For the 2024 Draft?

[upstater1]

Now, no.

A more relevant question is, if I were in BB's shoes in last year's draft, would I take Jones vs. Gonzalez and a fourth-round pick, knowing that the need at tackle is a lot greater? Honestly, I think it's about 50-50 that I would.

Is it a lot greater? A case could be made that we need a CB right now.

LTs are as hard to come by as lockdown corners.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Is it a lot greater? A case could be made that we need a CB right now.

LTs are as hard to come by as lockdown corners.

Again, the cutoff point is the knowledge he had at the time of the draft.

 

[upstater1]

Again, the cutoff point is the knowledge he had at the time of the draft.

Right. That's what I responded to. We had a huge need for a CB

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Right. That's what I responded to. We had a huge need for a CB

Depending on what BB knew about Jack Jones off the field, maybe. But based on what I knew then observing "from afar," I wouldn't have seen it that way. [And, in full disclosure, I didn't see it that way at the time; I felt the top of that draft was gilding the lily, so to speak, rather than addressing their biggest needs.]

 

[Ring 6]

Is it a lot greater? A case could be made that we need a CB right now.

LTs are as hard to come by as lockdown corners.

We are getting torched each week by bad or mediocre QBs with Gonzalez playing great. Without him we may be the worst defense in the league. We just gave up 24 first downs and 372 yards to TYLER HUNTLEY

 

[Ring 6]

Depending on what BB knew about Jack Jones off the field, maybe. But based on what I knew then observing "from afar," I wouldn't have seen it that way. [And, in full disclosure, I didn't see it that way at the time; I felt the top of that draft was gilding the lily, so to speak, rather than addressing their biggest needs.]

So your argument is that you thought belichick should have relied upon a guy who proved to be unreliable and you wouldn’t have so despite you being wrong he should have seen it your way?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I said "on day one and two"; Douglas was round 6.

As I've said before, Belichick defended drafting for value by arguing If you draft for need and take the wrong player, you've wasted a pick and still have a need. The problem is that there's another equally valid argument: if you have a need and don't draft someone, you still have a need and it's harder/more expensive to fill.

In Belichick's case, a key problem is that he largely ignored the tackle position for years. The only tackle he drafted in the first three rounds from 2019 to 2023 was Yodny Cajuste, who they knew wouldn't be available much if at all as a rookie. Heck, if he didn't mangle the guard position so badly by letting Mason, Thuney, and Karras leave, he could've stayed at 21 and taken Tyler Smith, who's been a Pro Bowler for Dallas instead of trading down and taking Strange.j

Just turned into a BB hate rant. Surprise Surprise.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

So your argument is that you thought belichick should have relied upon a guy who proved to be unreliable and you wouldn’t have so despite you being wrong he should have seen it your way?

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is this:

At the time of the 2023 draft, the issues with Jones during his tenure with the Patriots were not public knowledge, and his arrest hadn't happened yet. It is possible that issues had popped up that hadn't become public, and that affected BB's decision to go with Jones vs. Gonzalez. If so, fine. [That said, see the next post.]

As to the draft itself, I think I was far from the only person here who questioned why the Patriots went all-defense in the first three rounds.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Just turned into a BB hate rant. Surprise Surprise.

I don't think it's a hate rant to say, effectively:
(1) BB made certain decisions constructing the roster over the last few years of his tenure (ditto for the coaching staff, though I didn't bring it up).
(2) Those decisions come with risks either way.
(3) A high percentage of those decisions didn't work.
(4) That led to his departure.

Reports were that he felt that the top FA and top draft tackles were overvalued, which led to the "let's throw a bunch of bodies at the problem and hope it works" strategy. It probably should have worked, TBH, which probably would've gotten him at least an extra year, but it didn't.

 

[Thelonious]

Russians, them f'n Russians. Them Krafts are communis'. I seen one of 'em with a Chinese lady down in fla.

 

[Ring 6]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is this:

At the time of the 2023 draft, the issues with Jones during his tenure with the Patriots were not public knowledge, and his arrest hadn't happened yet. It is possible that issues had popped up that hadn't become public, and that affected BB's decision to go with Jones vs. Gonzalez. If so, fine. [That said, see the next post.]

As to the draft itself, I think I was far from the only person here who questioned why the Patriots went all-defense in the first three rounds.

Jones issues didn’t start with that arrest. He had many issues that made him unreliable. Not counting on him, was smart, and turned out to be correct. But even if he hadn’t blown up, he’s not a #1 corner and we would still have need at the position.
In other words with Gonzalez we have a need at corner now, without him, even if jones worked out we’d have even greater need.

 

[BTTA]

BB last year with Wolf and Co. This year Wolfe and Co. Only haters wouldn't say the past two drafts have produced some really good and hopefully really good players.

I'm with you on the really good players, but it is too early to speak to the really good players.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The backup has been posted many times. You could use Google. RK spoke about the drafting process changes in about 2020, and when taking questions at the "BB leaving" news conference.

RK never went into details. We do not know. But RK clearly stated that BB did not have full control at first, maybe up until 2005/2006???. Robert clearly states the drafting management changed in 2020 or so.

All Kraft said was that he wanted to see more collaboration. That’s a far cry from the claims being made by some here that Wolf was in charge. So once again no one has been able to show anything to back up these claims. Belichick was a control freak, and while he probably made some effort to listen to other voices he still had final say on prrsonel, and he gets credit for good decisions, like the Gonzalez pick, and blame for the bad ones, like Mac Jones. I have defended Belichick to the death on this site, and been called a homer many times for that, which I’m fine with because regardless of any mistakes he made he still brought them 6 Lombardi’s, and he is the GOAT. However the revisionist history that absolves him from blame for bad decisions, and tries to place it on his subordinates is unadulterated ********. Believe or not there is such a thing as accountability, and that goes to the person who has final say. From 2000-2023 that was Belichick, from 2024 until he is no longer in charge that is Wolf. That’s not an unreasonable statement by any means, and what is unreasonable is someone trying to pretend they were privy to the internal deliberations in Foxboro, and know who was responsible for the advice given to Belichick during the decision making process. And what is really ridiculous is people trying to put the blame on Wolf for picks Belichick made in their most recent drafts. You can believe that ******** all you want, I’m not buying it.

If you want to try and continue this debate then bring the proof, otherwise I’m done with it.

 

[IcyPatriot]

2023
4 reliable starters is considered an excellent draft we got that and a few decent role or future starters.
Gonzalez
White
Baringer
Douglas
Mapu

That was excellent ... and we .. it seems got some decent role players or maybe they become good starters:
Sow
Boutte
At least them the others who remain ... well ???

2024:
Maye
Polk
and the others ??? ... that is almost average for a draft depending on their career could be higher.

 

[Huckleberry1]

At center. Not guard.

Jones has not been playing well at all. Would you trade Gonzalez for him straight up?

Not in a million years. Gonzalez has all pro caliber ability, that’s a home run pick. That tackle class sucked, Belichick was right to pass on it regardless of need.

 

[Huckleberry1]

3 to 4 reliable starters is considered an excellent draft we got that and a few decent role or future starters.

Gonzalez
White
Baringer
Douglas

That was excellent ... and we .. it seems got some decent role players or maybe they become good starters:
Sow
Boutte
At least them the others who remain ... well ???

2024:
Maye
Polk
and ? ... that is almost average for a draft depending on their career could be higher.

I agree, that was one of Belichick’s best Draft’s in years.

 

[Huckleberry1]

It was in all the newspapers. Kraft demanded that Belichick would have to collaborate and bring in more voices in the final decision making. It was a change.

What do you believe that means?

Does it mean Belichick listens to his scouts and personnel people and then overrules them in the end anyway?

How is that different than prior to 2020?

I believe that means he wanted Belichick to listen more during the process, but he still had final say, just as Wolf has final say now. At no point did anyone have the ability to override Belichick’s decision. And yes, it does mean Belichick always maintained the ability to have the final say, and no one has ever shown any proof that any of his subordinates could override his decisions.

 

[Jim Beankie]

I agree. The only questionable pick in the last 2 drafts was harry jr. (aka Polk)

Dude has the only WR TD in 5 games (and allllmost had another)... not that I disagree with you...

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

All Kraft said was that he wanted to see more collaboration. That’s a far cry from the claims being made by some here that Wolf was in charge. So once again no one has been able to show anything to back up these claims. Belichick was a control freak, and while he probably made some effort to listen to other voices he still had final say on prrsonel, and he gets credit for good decisions, like the Gonzalez pick, and blame for the bad ones, like Mac Jones. I have defended Belichick to the death on this site, and been called a homer many times for that, which I’m fine with because regardless of any mistakes he made he still brought them 6 Lombardi’s, and he is the GOAT. However the revisionist history that absolves him from blame for bad decisions, and tries to place it on his subordinates is unadulterated ********. Believe or not there is such a thing as accountability, and that goes to the person who has final say. From 2000-2023 that was Belichick, from 2024 until he is no longer in charge that is Wolf. That’s not an unreasonable statement by any means, and what is unreasonable is someone trying to pretend they were privy to the internal deliberations in Foxboro, and know who was responsible for the advice given to Belichick during the decision making process. And what is really ridiculous is people trying to put the blame on Wolf for picks Belichick made in their most recent drafts. You can believe that ******** all you want, I’m not buying it.

If you want to try and continue this debate then bring the proof, otherwise I’m done with it.

WOW. You are one tough dude. Please go easy on me.

There will never be any proof that BB was or was not in charge. RK makes it clear that at times BB had total control and at other times he did not. If you want to declare BB in charge or not that is your decision since we will never really know.

Your original post was that BB was in charge for 20+ years. That is wrong. How many years did he have total control? We can all have our guess.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

2023
4 reliable starters is considered an excellent draft we got that and a few decent role or future starters.
Gonzalez
White
Baringer
Douglas

That was excellent ... and we .. it seems got some decent role players or maybe they become good starters:
Sow
Boutte
At least them the others who remain ... well ???

2024:
Maye
Polk
and the others ??? ... that is almost average for a draft depending on their career could be higher.

Mapu played the last game and wore the green dot. Wearing the green dot in the first game in his 2nd season is very impressive. He should be on your "reliable starter" list. Mapu Impresses in Sudden Season Debut

When J Andrews is back from injury next year he might start as well. He should be on your potential good starter list.