Who Was Responsible For the 2023 Draft? For the 2024 Draft?

[sb1]

Team Bill gaslighting notwithstanding- BB was the defacto GM until his exit. Both good and bad personnel decisions were 100% his responsibility. Nobody else’s. Fact.

 

[upstater1]

I believe that means he wanted Belichick to listen more during the process, but he still had final say, just as Wolf has final say now. At no point did anyone have the ability to override Belichick’s decision. And yes, it does mean Belichick always maintained the ability to have the final say, and no one has ever shown any proof that any of his subordinates could override his decisions.

This makes no sense.

Belichick was always listening. He doesn't scout the college game himself. It would be impossible for any head coach to do so.

It meant that Belichick would have to abide by the recommendations sometimes.

Callahan said as much on the decision to go with Smith-Schuster instead of Jakobi Meyers.

There were also articles about Belichick wanting to move on from Mac Jones.

 

[vicspats]

I recently started updating a ss that I have of all the AFCE drafts since 2000. One of the biggest things I noticed was how many more picks the Pats have had compared to the other three teams. Not counting any mistakes that I made these are the total picks for each team the last 25 years;
NE - 224
Buf - 199
Mia - 179
NJ - 171

Apparently the Pats and Jets/Miami are on opposite sides of the draft. Those two teams seem to favor trading picks for players but it doesn't seem to work as well as having more picks. If the draft is a crap shoot then more picks is likely better and is a tactic I support.

While updating the ss I noticed that quite a few draft picks for all four teams don't show up on Pro-football Reference. When I looked into them I noticed that they were all mostly late picks who were traded and ended up on the PS for teams and never played a game.

I imagine Bill thought that as well.

 

[Huckleberry1]

This makes no sense.

Belichick was always listening. He doesn't scout the college game himself. It would be impossible for any head coach to do so.

It meant that Belichick would have to abide by the recommendations sometimes.

Callahan said as much on the decision to go with Smith-Schuster instead of Jakobi Meyers.

There were also articles about Belichick wanting to move on from Mac Jones.

What makes no sense is the contention that Belichick had to abide by others recommendations. What you are suggesting is that they took turns being in charge, and that’s not how organizations work. There has to be someone who has final authority for there to be accountability. The idea that sometimes Belichick was in charge and sometimes his subordinates were in charge would make for total chaos. What did they do, use a rotation system? Draw straws? Go by age? Or spin a bottle?

Bob Kraft made a point of coming out this spring and saying that Wolf was now in charge, and Wolf then came out and said that they would collaborate, but ultimately he had final say. Why would they do that if he already had final say over Belichick. And why would they now decide that they now needed to make clear who had final say?

Kraft wanted Belichick to listen to his scouts and personal people more, because he was notorious for blowing them off and going his own way, but that in no way means any of them ever had the authority to override him. And still to this point not one person has ever been able to provide proof that anyone did override him, or had the authority to do so. In fact many of his subordinates left so they could get the authority to make the final decisions, and did just that at other franchises.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Team Bill gaslighting notwithstanding- BB was the defacto GM until his exit. Both good and bad personnel decisions were 100% his responsibility. Nobody else’s. Fact.

This isn’t a “ team Bill vs Bill detractors@ for me. I’m a big supporter of Belichick and everything he accomplished here. That said the idea that he wasn’t in charge goes against everything we knew about him for 24 years. Christ he even had final say in the Brady negotiations when Kraft wanted Brady to stay desperately, and now regrets not intervening.

I’m also not one of those who try to take the credit for taking Brady away from Belichick. Yes, Rehbein scouted him and pushed for him, but he pushed for him to Belichick, who made the final decision, took him, and then kept 4 QB’s to ensure they didn’t lose him. That was the greatest decision of his career, and he deserves full credit for it, just as he deserves full blame for an’ N’Keal Harry, and other bad draft picks during his era.

Belichick was in charge, that’s why when things finally went south he was the one who got fired. Just like when they won their Lombardi’s he got credit.

 

[upstater1]

Kraft wanted Belichick to listen to his scouts and personal people more, because he was notorious for blowing them off and going his own way, but that in no way means any of them ever had the authority to override him. And still to this point not one person has ever been able to provide proof that anyone did override him, or had the authority to do so. In fact many of his subordinates left so they could get the authority to make the final decisions, and did just that at other franchises.

There's a logical inconsistency in what you're writing here. Again, Belichick isn't doing the college scouting. What does it mean that he's "listening" to them more? He HAS to always listen to them because they are the scouts. Then he does what he thinks is best. That's how it always was. So then what changed?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

And still to this point not one person has ever been able to provide proof that anyone did override him, or had the authority to do so.

This is silly. We don't know what happened. It does not follow that because PatsFans are not privy to the Patriots organization therefore BB picked the majority of the draft picks.

BB scouted Tyquan at Baylor? BB scouted Sidy Sow at E Michigan? BB never saw either of these draft picks, and many more. There is a famous story that Ernie Adams picked Tre Nixon in his last year. And **** Rehbein picked Tom Brady. In 2023 BB might have picked Gonzo, but there are famous clips of BB watching Kevin White clips in the draft room to get up to speed on our 2nd round pick. BB did not even know our 2nd round pick. The Pats personnel department picked and picks the vast majority of the draft.

Did BB override his scouts from time to time? Yes, I am guessing he did. But that was on a handful of situations. Did BB have final say? I am guessing yes, but practically BB went by the draft board made up by the scouting department because there are too many players for BB to know more than a few.

The point is that, even if BB had final say, the scouting department made the vast majority of the picks. It is the same with Wolf, the scouts grade the players and are therefore picking the majority of the draft picks.

Claiming that BB had authority over the draft picks is majoring in a minor. The vast majority of the draft picks are made based on the team's draft board that is put together by the personnel department.

Since BB left the Pats whole personnel department has been retained. Good or bad, the vast majority of the draft picks will be made in 2024 and beyond the same way the draft picks were made in 2023 and prior. The only way the draft selections will change is if we see an overhaul of the Pats personnel department.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

3 starters in each draft. That's what you want and need. Teams don't do better than that.

If you look back on those drafts, the Patriots fulfilled that in 3 of the 4.

Onwenu, Anfernee, Dugger, Rham, Barmore, Marcus Jones, Strange, Jack Jones a starter but a headcase, Douglas, Sow, Keion White, Gonzalez.

This is not a failure. 13 starters in 4 drafts is par for the course.

Given the hit or miss nature of the process, I agree that the drafts have been better than the perception. The draft results feel worse than they are because success on the field has not been there and the fact that he most impactful player drafted torpedoed multiple seasons when things didn't work out. Rainmaker highlighted why the team has not gotten better when he said that there were no impact players selected. Before selecting Gonzalez the team went many years without drafting someone who stood out as a top NFL talent. The bottom line is that championship level teams need a core of players who are top 5 at their positions. The team currently has 1, 2 if you count punters.

 

[Huckleberry1]

There's a logical inconsistency in what you're writing here. Again, Belichick isn't doing the college scouting. What does it mean that he's "listening" to them more? He HAS to always listen to them because they are the scouts. Then he does what he thinks is best. That's how it always was. So then what changed?

“ then he does what he thinks is best.”

This is my point, Belichick always had the final say. And when his subordinates made a good deal, as Wolf did with the Barmore trade., or an assistant or scout found a good player, as Rehbein did with Brady,,Belichick listened and sometimes gave them credit for it.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

“ then he does what he thinks is best.”

This is my point, Belichick always had the final say. And when his subordinates made a good deal, as Wolf did with the Barmore trade., or an assistant or scout found a good player, as Rehbein did with Brady,,Belichick listened and sometimes gave them credit for it.

BB over rode the scouts very rarely. He didn't even know who Keion White was in the draft room, our 2nd round pick. If BB does not even know who White is or is not picking Barmore who are 2nd round picks, how many draft picks did BB exert his possible veto power over?

You are not wrong, but you are talking about a very very small amount of draft picks and trying to stretch your point to the whole draft. You are majoring in a minor.

 

[sb1]

Like it is with any leader in any career, Bill was responsible for those who worked for him. As GM he was responsible for all personnel decisions. So if cOLLaBoRaTiOn made a bad recommendation to draft someone and Bill uses their recommendation anyway that’s 100% on him and not anyone else.

 

[sb1]

I’d give Bill credit for carrying the 4th QB named Tom Brady as the real genius move - not drafting him. If Brady was picked with the Patriots 1st pick in 2000 that obviously would have been the genius move. Of course it would have probably cost him his job right away lol.

 

[upstater1]

Given the hit or miss nature of the process, I agree that the drafts have been better than the perception. The draft results feel worse than they are because success on the field has not been there and the fact that he most impactful player drafted torpedoed multiple seasons when things didn't work out. Rainmaker highlighted why the team has not gotten better when he said that there were no impact players selected. Before selecting Gonzalez the team went many years without drafting someone who stood out as a top NFL talent. The bottom line is that championship level teams need a core of players who are top 5 at their positions. The team currently has 1, 2 if you count punters.

When a team wins, players that you say "are not top talents" suddenly get All-Pro and Pro Bowl honors. There are more than one of these on the team. Losing teams don't get players with recognition. No matter how good you are. This is the plight of losing teams. Just one example: Barmore. But there are others.

 

[upstater1]

“ then he does what he thinks is best.”

This is my point, Belichick always had the final say. And when his subordinates made a good deal, as Wolf did with the Barmore trade., or an assistant or scout found a good player, as Rehbein did with Brady,,Belichick listened and sometimes gave them credit for it.

I think you missed my point. At a certain point, Kraft demanded changes. What were the changes?

 

[Stu Pidassle]

When a team wins, players that you say "are not top talents" suddenly get All-Pro and Pro Bowl honors. There are more than one of these on the team. Losing teams don't get players with recognition. No matter how good you are. This is the plight of losing teams. Just one example: Barmore. But there are others.

It is a bit of a chicken or egg proposition. Teams don't win without good players, winning brings recognition to those players. Barmore has the problem of being one of the few good players on a team that has been bad for a few years. No prime time games means only NE sees his play. As you say he will get more recognition when he is surrounded by enough good players for the team to win more games.

 

[Huckleberry1]

There's a logical inconsistency in what you're writing here. Again, Belichick isn't doing the college scouting. What does it mean that he's "listening" to them more? He HAS to always listen to them because they are the scouts. Then he does what he thinks is best. That's how it always was. So then what changed?

I read War Room years ago and I’m almost certain Holley said that Belichick spent a great deal of time watching film on college players, and he has always gone to pro days and the combine, so he doesn’t get all of his information from his scouts, he also consults coaches and assistants in the college ranks.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I think you missed my point. At a certain point, Kraft demanded changes. What were the changes?

The change was that Belichick start to listen, instead of just blowing them off. And once again there is no evidence anywhere that anyone had the power to override his decisions.

 

[lancerman]

If Bill was judged based on the 2023 Draft, he would have been extended, not fired. There are many reasons to fire Bill, the 2023 Draft was NOT one of them.
==============
Wolf has 2-3 years to give the team the personnel it needs to be playoff contenders.

Bill chose decent players. They just all happened to be defense in a year everyone knew the Patriots offense needed serious help. Then he trotted out the worst offense in the league.

**** like that has gotten GM’s fired. You can pick good players but neglect what the team needs.

Only thing that was going to save Bill after that was it Gonzo was the second coming of Deion Sanders and we had a 2000 Ravens like team that won because the defense was so overwhelming. But otherwise, the overall problems with that draft were clear

 

[Ring 6]

I believe that means he wanted Belichick to listen more during the process, but he still had final say, just as Wolf has final say now. At no point did anyone have the ability to override Belichick’s decision. And yes, it does mean Belichick always maintained the ability to have the final say, and no one has ever shown any proof that any of his subordinates could override his decisions.

Think about what you just wrote. I’m every organization everywhere somebody has “final say”. And by definition subordinates cannot “ override” their superior who has final decision making responsibility.
You wrote this as if it’s rare and odd, but it’s in place 100% of the time.

 

[Ring 6]

The change was that Belichick start to listen, instead of just blowing them off. And once again there is no evidence anywhere that anyone had the power to override his decisions.

Again, no one anywhere has power to override the person responsible for decisions.
You act as if in some organizations the GM makes decision and a scout says don’t listen to him, I’m making this pick. It just doesn’t happen that way.

There is zero evidence that he dying listen, but Bob Kraft gave him the responsibility of being the guy who makes the final decision. Just as Wolfvis now. If there is disagreement Wolf makes the call, not Covington