(Edited Title:) Writer thinks Zappe is winning the QB "battle"?

[Rob0729]

Straw man argument aside, I wonder if you’re aware that you’re destroying your own argument here?



It wasn’t the routes? But that’s not what you said in the original claim that I responded to…



Safe throws are slants, out routes, hitches. Checkdown routes. So you either misspoke or you moved the goalposts. Your pick. In any event, we agree that he had the same route options Mac did.



Prove all of this, please. What percentage of plays was he under center during that stretch vs a similar four game stretch for Mac? What percentage did the team run PA vs a similar four game stretch for Mac? What percentage did the team call a run on first down for Zappe vs any four game stretch for Mac? Cite your sources.

Like I said, I prefer Mac over Zappe. There are many different ways you can make that case. You just chose the wrong one and, instead of just saying that maybe you were a little overzealous and pivoting to making that case in those different ways, you’ve chosen to dig your heels in.

Which is a safer throw to make? A throw on third and two or third and ten? A throw when you have a strong running game and defenses have to worry about the run or where the offense has abandoned the run and every on the defensive side knows it is going to be a pass? A safer throw doesn't just mean screens. Safer throws are also when a QB is in a position where he doesn't have gain a first down on third and long because they offense set up a second and short rather than trying to get a ten plus yard play on first down. A safer throw is when you make opposing teams have to worry about the run and not just pin their ears back to rush the passer or drop seven or eight into coverage.

And my argument isn't being destroyed at all.

And Bedard, Lazar, and most of the guys who broke down plays and studied the game film all have said the same thing I am saying now. You want numbers go to their sites. Maybe they have it.

 

[Ring 6]

I am not saying that the Patriots Defense is dog food. On the other Hand they are not elite.

@Kasmir Do you always jump into conversations without reading for context?

What defenses are elite?

 

[catent]

You said:

Maybe you don't know what ad hominem means?

That's a pretty iffy ad hom.

It does address the person more than the argument, but it's also specifically related to the exchange in question.

"Do you always demonstrate your lack of intelligence when having these conversations" would be a much clearer example.

 

[sb1]

Imagine comparing Mac-Zappe with Bledsoe Brady lolololol

There are almost zero similarities to the two situations.

 

[Ring 6]

Ad hom attack??? OK. SO sorry.

To answer your question (about defenses) not every team plays the same schedule.

When I watch a Patriots game, it feels like no lead is safe *except* when the opponent starts a back-up qb.

This goes back to when Brady was still here.

I am sure that your statistical work is very good. It's watching the actual game that should bring comfort to us.

What team do you watch where you feel the leads are safe?
It might just be that your expectation is unreasonable.
The patriots during the Brady years were probably the best in the history of the league in protecting leads.

 

[Rob0729]

Nope

Covid Cam lost his job paving the way for the #1 draft pick. You folks tell it like Jones unseated a 1st ballot Hofer.

Zappe was 2 - 0, but Jones got his job back because the media was all over Jones losing his job. We know now that Jones went whining to folks outside the organization.

Mac was going to eventually become the starter. That was a given. What wasn't a given was that he would be a rookie that started day one. In fact, the odds were against it. All the talk that preseason was would Belichick risk making Jones' first game vs. the Bucs or would he wait until after that to not put too much pressure on the rookie.

And when did Belichick do anything the media wanted him to do? If he listened to the media, he would have put Bledsoe back in the starting role for the playoffs in the 2001 season. Or he would never had cut Lawyer Milloy right before the season. Or he would never had gotten rid of Bernie Kosar in Cleveland. Or he would never have traded away Gilmore. Or he would never had traded away Branch. Or he would never had let Welker walk. Or he would have given Brady the contract he wanted. Or he would overpaid to get Hopkins. Or he would have never put Patricia in charge of the offense.

I could go on and on about the moves that the media hated and gave Belichick crap for. But after over two decades of coaching this team and six rings, he caved to media pressure?

 

[catent]

A link below to the Pats Unfiltered exchange that some have referenced, where you can actually listen to what Lazar has to say.

He seems to focus on what he perceives to be Mac's unwillingness/inability to push the ball down the field, into tighter windows, against zone coverage, and throw with confidence, timing, and anticipation. Hearing that gives me some real pause, because I think those elements Lazar mentions were legitimate and real problems with Mac's game going back to last season, so if those issues are still present that's not ideal.

I timestamped the link to start playing right as Lazar begins the discussion of the quarterbacks. I use Spotify, but there are alternative ways to listen if one does not use Spotify. I'll include a general link to the Pats Unfiltered episode catalogue below, too.

Timestamped Spotify Link (if for whatever reason the timestamp does not work, the discussion begins around the 6:40 mark)
Unfiltered Catalogue

 

[sb1]

A link below to the Pats Unfiltered exchange that some have referenced, where you can actually listen to what Lazar has to say.

He seems to focus on what he perceives to be Mac's unwillingness/inability to push the ball down the field, into tighter windows, against zone coverage, and throw with confidence, timing, and anticipation. Hearing that gives me some real pause, because I think those elements Lazar mentions were legitimate and real issues with Mac's game going back to last season, so if those issues are still present that's not ideal.

I timestamped the link to start playing right as Lazar begins the discussion of the quarterbacks. I use Spotify, but there are alternative ways to listen if one does not use Spotify. I'll include a general link to the Pats Unfiltered episode catalogue below, too.

Timestamped Spotify link:

Unfiltered catalogue: Official New England Patriots Podcasts - Patriots Unfiltered

Yeah not ideal but fwiw he walked back on that a bit today after the practices.

 

[Kasmir]

That's a pretty iffy ad hom.

It does address the person more than the argument, but it's also specifically related to the exchange in question.

"Do you always demonstrate your lack of intelligence when having these conversations" would be a much clearer example.

@Kasmir Do you always jump into conversations without reading for context?

Let me guess: you don't remember much about universal quantifiers from logic class.

I guess being pissed on by featherweights like you is better than not being recognized at all.

 

[TheRainMaker]

What defenses are elite?

There really aren't any anymore and their flaws seem to eventually show up against a competent team. The offense will need to show up at some point as every defense cracks at some point.

The 49ers have an excellent front 7, but their secondary is still mediocre at best. They were the league's best defense by your metric, but they were a mixed bag against top offenses and/or competent offenses. They got handled by KC and Philly (top offenses in the NFL), but did well against Miami, LAC, and Dallas.

Bills were #2 in "points allowed", but struggle badly against top offenses when the playoffs roll around.

Philly got handled in the Super Bowl despite having the league's best passing D. The criticism leading up to the Super Bowl was that the D didn't face much competition throughout the year.

 

[Triumph]

You must not have followed Jones in college or the 2021 preseason when the coaches kept piling more on the kid's plate to see if he could really handle everything as he went against Newton. Jones also had to fight extremely hard to earn the job in Alabama (Saban made it extremely tough on him to finally ascend up the depth chart) and the initial feeling by most of us at the time - and even Belichick, based on some of his early comments - expected Jones to sit behind Newton that first season. Nothing was "handed" to him. I don't know what his life was like in high school, but since he got to college and now the NFL, it's been more of an uphill battle for him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the underdog and I hope Zappe continues to do well because it's better for everybody. But Jones hasn't been gifted anything, other than maybe his job back after he got hurt last year.

Started 1 season and Bryce Young was his competition.

Did he beat out Tua for the job? Nope, which is basically playing out in real time. Tua isnt a good QB either, but he has had some games that Jones can only dream of.

Alabama once had three Heisman QB candidates on its roster at the same time

One can now add quarterback to the list of positions that Alabama football is having success in. It has transitioned from the “game managers” in Greg McElroy, AJ McCarron and Jacob Coker, to individuals that can vertically stretch the field, make all the throws and be explosive in the passing...

tdalabamamag.com

Alabama had 3 QBs on the roster and all were Heisman candidates.

 

[Ian]

Started 1 season and Bryce Young was his competition.

Did he beat out Tua for the job? Nope, which is basically playing out in real time. Tua isnt a good QB either, but he has had some games that Jones can only dream of.

Alabama once had three Heisman QB candidates on its roster at the same time

One can now add quarterback to the list of positions that Alabama football is having success in. It has transitioned from the “game managers” in Greg McElroy, AJ McCarron and Jacob Coker, to individuals that can vertically stretch the field, make all the throws and be explosive in the passing...

tdalabamamag.com

Alabama had 3 QBs on the roster and all were Heisman candidates.

OK. The point was you said everything was handed to him. Clearly, that wasn't the case. And Bryce Young just went #1 overall ... so .... ?

 

[Triumph]

OK. The point was you said everything was handed to him. Clearly, that wasn't the case.

The starting job was handed to him after Tua left.

 

[Triumph]

OK. The point was you said everything was handed to him. Clearly, that wasn't the case.

Cam got himself fired after getting Covid a 3rd time.

 

[PatsFan2]

A link below to the Pats Unfiltered exchange that some have referenced, where you can actually listen to what Lazar has to say.

He seems to focus on what he perceives to be Mac's unwillingness/inability to push the ball down the field, into tighter windows, against zone coverage, and throw with confidence, timing, and anticipation. Hearing that gives me some real pause, because I think those elements Lazar mentions were legitimate and real problems with Mac's game going back to last season, so if those issues are still present that's not ideal.

I timestamped the link to start playing right as Lazar begins the discussion of the quarterbacks. I use Spotify, but there are alternative ways to listen if one does not use Spotify. I'll include a general link to the Pats Unfiltered episode catalogue below, too.

Timestamped Spotify Link (if for whatever reason the timestamp does not work, the discussion begins around the 6:40 mark)
Unfiltered Catalogue

IF OC BOB and Mac fixes those things he's our Franchise QB going forward. IF not we gotta see what the Zapper can do. That said we have some Big WR's in Parker - Juju and Bourne: Mac should trust them and his arm it can be the difference between winning and losing.

 

[Ian]

The starting job was handed to him after Tua left.

He still had to earn it ahead of Young. If Young had outplayed him, Saban 100% would have started him:

Spotlighting Alabama QB Mac Jones for 2020 football season

With fall practice starting on August 17, Touchdown Alabama Magazine will release a series of player spotlight pieces on starters and marquee contributors at Alabama for the 2020 football season. RELATED: Alabama adds Missouri and Kentucky to its 2020 schedule In these articles, we will look at...

tdalabamamag.com

Saban's like Belichick and Mac wasn't on a contract. He would have absolutely benched him.

 

[Ian]

Cam got himself fired after getting Covid a 3rd time.

Again, same story. Had Cam outplayed Jones, he would have been the starter until he faltered.

Belichick likes winning and I'm sure would have been fine sitting Jones given what Cam cost, his popularity within the locker room, etc. I mean, you heard Belichick the season before when he defended Cam to an unreasonable level given how poorly he was playing, and then went so far as to bring him back. He got fired for his play in preseason and it's obvious Bill was right because he was done after that. His cameo appearance aside in Carolina.

 

[Ian]

The starting job was handed to him after Tua left.

Again, I get you hate him and you'll either be right or you won't. As I've already mentioned, the two won't be on the roster together a few years from now, so it's all going to come down to how he plays whether or not it's him or it's Zappe calling signals here three years from now.

 

[sb1]

The starting job was handed to him after Tua left.

And BB tried handing it to Zappe in the Bears game and Zappe took that opportunity and vomited all over himself vs the 32nd ranked defense.

If that’s what we have to look forward to with Zappe starting- no thanks. Gimme a good QB in the draft next April.

 

[sb1]

IF OC BOB and Mac fixes those things he's our Franchise QB going forward. IF not we gotta see what the Zapper can do. That said we have some Big WR's in Parker - Juju and Bourne: Mac should trust them and his arm it can be the difference between winning and losing.

Most likely if Mac is not the guy they don’t give him a year 5 and he is sent packing. Lots of talented QBs next draft to choose from. Will be hard to miss on a pick.