The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Wozzy]

You should have a private chat if you don't want others to point out your mistakes, such as the ridiculous notion that a touchdown drive with 1:52, trailing by 8, is "garbage time." I understand why you'd want to limit your audience because then others can't assert balance and you can continue to "win" in your skewed reality.

You should read the conversation from the beginning instead of jumping in at the end of a conversation to white knight because someone said Brady struggled in a game. According to Crawdaddy Brady didn't need offensive linemen, his linemen only played well because Tom made them good. I literally argued he struggled because of his offensive linemen but you Brady-stans can't see past the end of your noses.

 

[Wozzy]

I don't understand your argument?? I think you're confusing me. Maybe you should re think your comments

No GM/Coach who takes over a losing program gets credit for turning it around if the team possesses some decent players when he took over... all the credit goes to the last guy who was fired. Solid take...

 

[Joker]

That's right!! BB had a great head start in building the dynasty.. inherited mc ginest, Malloy, law, Ted Johnson.. foundation pieces..

who the hell is Malloy? Father Malloy the Southie pastor? Lawyer Milloy was cut by BB at the end of 2002. Foundation piece? OK,"real" fan...

 

[Wozzy]

I could have sworn Pete Carroll won both a college national championship and a Super Bowl (and made it to another Super Bowl), is 161-112 as a head coach, and has had a winning record 10 of the last 11 years.

Did that actually happen or was it all a dream?

He got fired right... or was it all dream?

So now Carroll gets credit for BB's success, I thought it was Parcells?

No doubt all those player who Parcells and Carroll drafted were still there ifrom 2014-2019 right?

They way you guys bend yourselves into pretzels to attack the coach is some pathetic.

 

[Wozzy]

The point was Parcells drafted several players that were key contributors and team leaders during the Patriots dynasty 1.0. This is just a fact so I don't know why anyone would dispute it.

And the Carroll seasons weren't successful primarily because Bledsoe was a team wrecker.

And Brady went to a Tampa team that was mega talented outside of the QB position in 2020, so what?

 

[Wozzy]

Allen is a top 3 QB in the NFL.
Jackson won an NFL MVP as a QB.

You're not an NFL executive I take it.

Allen improved, as he improved I said he improved and said I was wrong. I do that, self correct.

Lamar Jackson hasn't improved as a passer at all, he has won a single playoff game in his entire career and his team doesn't want to pay him.

If I were an NFL executive I never would have drafted Jackson and I certainly wouldn't pay him... you would though, you think he is a top five QB.

 

[Wozzy]

Maybe this is why you're spinning your wheels? You're arguing against things I never said. For instance: "QB’s are unique unicorns who develop, thrive or fail based entirely upon their own merit and the team around them plays no part in it"

I've never said it's 100% about the quarterback, which is what you keep repeating. Everyone is a factor... all 53, coaching staff, management, ownership... the quarterback, especially an elite one like Brady, generally gets the highest percentage. Highest, not all of it. And generally, the quarterback is the piece that you can least afford to lose.

You're literally at the forefront of every conversation about magical QB's being the only important thing. Whenever a conversation is had that gives any credit to Patriot Dynasty success to anyone not wearing the #12 you are there arguing about his magic powers and how everyone else was along for the ride. You're here now telling us Brady didn't have or need good offensive linemen, they were only good because Tom made them good. It's a teenage fangirl take... you're the kid telling us Beiber is better than The Rolling Stones.

 

[Wozzy]

I've read a lot of insane stuff in this board, but to call a drive that starts with a team down 8 "garbage time" might just take the cake.

They played that game without Solder, with an injured Vollmer, Josh Kline at guard and had Bryan Stork tipping the snap count all day long. To take that single game, in that context, against one of the best defenses of the past 20 years to make an argument about how "Brady didn't make his lines better" is absolutely asinine. Here's actual, big boy research on how QB play impacts not only sack rate, but EPA lost on sacks: i.e. how costly a sack is. This doesn't solely apply to Brady, of course, bur considering he's got the 8th best sack rate in NFL history, I'd say he did a whole lot to help his protection throughout his career. It'd be absolutely foolish to contradict that statement with a one game sample.

Hey genius, go back and read the conversation instead of entering at the end of a conversation. I was here arguing that their offensive line was bad in that game, against a couple of Brady fanboys telingl us Tom didn't need good blocking... he made all his teammates good. As if Logan Mankins wasn't a Pro Bowler for the Bucs after the Patriots traded him... the ball washing hyperbole here is at peak levels.

 

[Wozzy]

Wozzy says "A weapon is only as good as the QB's ability to get him the ball" and pumps up QBs (to pump up N'Keal Harry.) Then when a QB like Mac is struggling, he pushes the onus to the receivers and coaches. Typical.

Cam sucked, Cam sucked the next season with great weapons in Carolina, then Cam was out of the league.

I never claimed Harry was anything more than an athletic draft prospect who deserved a chance to show if he was good or not. I don't offer guarantees on rookies... not Harry, not Mac. But here is where you get to lie and tell us you knew N'Keal was a bad draft pick when he was taken... then again, you undoubtedly tell us all our draft picks suck so there's that.

Show me where I blamed Mac's receivers for him playing poorly. The entire football watching world knows the Matt Patricia experiment was a disaster, except you.... you think MattyP was a genius and it was simply a case of Mac having a weak arm. We'll find out this season with a competent coordinator who was correct.

 

[Real fan 02]

The point was Parcells drafted several players that were key contributors and team leaders during the Patriots dynasty 1.0. This is just a fact so I don't know why anyone would dispute it.

And the Carroll seasons weren't successful primarily because Bledsoe was a team wrecker.

Exactly!! The fact BB enherited Many of those players, and they became even better players under BB all time patriots greats in my opinion is a testament to BB and his coaching prowess.. all those men

who the hell is Malloy? Father Malloy the Southie pastor? Lawyer Milloy was cut by BB at the end of 2002. Foundation piece? OK,"real" fan...

It was 03 when he was cut not 02.. alrighty .... crew hammer or whatever u call yourself.. Malloy was cut in 03, get it right... and I said he was one of the foundation pieces of the BB era when BB took over in 2000.. We signed Rodney in 03 lawyer was made expandable at that point... you remember that or you want to make up your own facts?

 

[Jim Beankie]

Allen improved, as he improved I said he improved and said I was wrong. I do that, self correct.

Lamar Jackson hasn't improved as a passer at all, he has won a single playoff game in his entire career and his team doesn't want to pay him.

If I were an NFL executive I never would have drafted Jackson and I certainly wouldn't pay him... you would though, you think he is a top five QB.

Because I'm that guy, I do have to say that Lamar did win a playoff game (Titans '20 season). Otherwise, I agree with you on everything else (except I really wanted the Pats to draft him at #31, but I'll take Michel and a SB win any day).

Edit: Brain fart.

 

[Real fan 02]

Allen improved, as he improved I said he improved and said I was wrong. I do that, self correct.

Lamar Jackson hasn't improved as a passer at all, he has won a single playoff game in his entire career and his team doesn't want to pay him.

If I were an NFL executive I never would have drafted Jackson and I certainly wouldn't pay him... you would though, you think he is a top five QB.

@crawhammer my apologies I named you in my last post I was responding to some clown named joker on here.. my apologies brother!

 

[Wozzy]

@crawhammer my apologies I named you in my last post I was responding to some clown named joker on here.. my apologies brother!

I'm not Crawhammer, I don't have a Brady body pillow... that's the other guy who saw 80 For Brady three times in the theater.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He made a point about Brady making offensive lines better throughout his career. Hard to argue that one. Manning did. Marino did. Quick read/release QBs who can diagnose plays and have quick footwork will do that.

You then brought up an extreme example of a game where the o-line was so bad (due to injuries, tipped play calls, elite pass rush.). This is MAC10 level stuff. Of course he wasn’t arguing that Brady can go out there with five obese working dads against the 85 Bears and make it work. It doesn’t take away from the overall point.

Similar argument to:

Michael Jordan made the Bulls into champions.

BUT ONE TIME I SAW HIM AND HE WAS TERRIBLE AND MISSED A FOUL SHOT TO LOSE! YOU’RE WRONG!

 

[Wozzy]

Because I'm that guy, I do have to say that Lamar did win a playoff game (Titans '20 season). Otherwise, I agree with you on everything else (except I really wanted the Pats to draft him at #31, but I'll take Michel and a SB win any day).

That's what I said, a single playoff win.

He also had 56% Completions, 5 INT's, 6.62 Yards Per Passing Attempt, 19 Sacks, 68.3 QB Rating... and oh yeah, 5 Fumbles. But he runs the ball a little and apparently thats more important than playoff success.

Justin Field is the next great future QB according to Crawdaddy, he only had 11 interceptions and 16 fumbles this season... but he is destined for greatness and Mac is hopeless. Do they award more points for rushing yards than actual points like fantasy football, I forget?

 

[Wozzy]

He made a point about Brady making offensive lines better throughout his career. Hard to argue that one. Manning did. Marino did. Quick read/release QBs who can diagnose plays and have quick footwork will do that.

You then brought up an extreme example of a game where the o-line was so bad (due to injuries, tipped play calls, elite pass rush.). This is MAC10 level stuff. Of course he wasn’t arguing that Brady can go out there with five obese working dads against the 85 Bears and make it work. It doesn’t take away from the overall point.

Similar argument to:

Michael Jordan made the Bulls into champions.

BUT ONE TIME I SAW HIM AND HE WAS TERRIBLE AND MISSED A FOUL SHOT TO LOSE! YOU’RE WRONG!

So Tom Brady made bad offensive line's good... except that one time they were actually bad and he couldn't.

How about this statement instead, Tom made life easier for good offensive lines and made them better.

I'm still trying to figure out how Tom coaxed the offensive line into being a top rushing unit year after year... that was some trick.

But hey, Tom was punishing blocker.

 

[Wozzy]

Similar argument to:

Michael Jordan made the Bulls into champions.

BUT ONE TIME I SAW HIM AND HE WAS TERRIBLE AND MISSED A FOUL SHOT TO LOSE! YOU’RE WRONG!

And for what it's worth, there were games the line wasn't that bad, Tom wasn't his best but the team around him got him the win anyway.

It's a team game, Brady was helped along the way by some great players as well.

 

[Joker]

Exactly!! The fact BB enherited Many of those players, and they became even better players under BB all time patriots greats in my opinion is a testament to BB and his coaching prowess.. all those men
It was 03 when he was cut not 02.. alrighty .... crew hammer or whatever u call yourself.. Malloy was cut in 03, get it right... and I said he was one of the foundation pieces of the BB era when BB took over in 2000.. We signed Rodney in 03 lawyer was made expandable at that point... you remember that or you want to make up your own facts?

jeezus krist STFU you goddamned ignorant bastard...the END of the 2002 season came and Milloy was CUT before..;.BEFORE the 2003 season began..a WEEK before. BTW you damned azzhat, at the time I had an authorized press pass, a pass I possessed from the mid-90's. I covered the Patriots camps at Bryant FIELD SIDE with the rest of the Boston sports press.I wrote for Rivals,ran my own website, the War Zone and made daily reports on the Unofficial NEP board along with "Prentice McCray"( Tom Curran) and other notable writers. I held this pass until BB took over and ended the Bryant preseason camps.
BB inherited Rucci and Lane, the two worst, utterly moronic contracts in Pats history...primarily because they were Drewpy's bestest buddies.BB cut them before the start of the 2000 season. Guaranteed million dollar+ contracts!! Foundation pieces?"??? You have no idea what the **** you're blabbing about. BB went through the team like crap through a goose after the 5-11 season and Milloy was no goddamned "foundation piece" you moron. Get a ****ing clue

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So Tom Brady made bad offensive line's good... except that one time they were actually bad and he couldn't.

How about this statement instead, Tom made life easier for good offensive lines and made them better.

Fair statement.

Patriots prioritized linemen over WRs when it came to salaries. He had generally very good lines and was adept at covering weaknesses (usually temporary ones due to injury.) And of course leading the league in time to throw means a lot. But look what happened in Tampa this last season…they lost Gronk, Jensen, and Marpet…Smith was exposed too. The Bucs didn’t give him even adequate linemen, and it was too much to overcome (that and Tom's decline.) So yes, both the Patriots personnel and Brady were responsible for the great protection, and Tom makes offensive lines better. Both are true. The Denver game is another example of how no one can overcome a handicap too big.

 

[Wozzy]

Fair statement.

Patriots prioritized linemen over WRs when it came to salaries. He had generally very good lines and was adept at covering weaknesses (usually temporary ones due to injury.) And of course leading the league in time to throw means a lot. But look what happened in Tampa this last season…they lost Gronk, Jensen, and Marpet…Smith was exposed too. The Bucs didn’t give him even adequate linemen, and it was too much to overcome (that and Tom's decline.) So yes, both the Patriots personnel and Brady were responsible for the great protection, and Tom makes offensive lines better. Both are true. The Denver game is another example of how no one can overcome a handicap too big.

Teams that prioritize line play are smart teams IMO. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. And I agree, there were times the line wasn't as strong and often due to injuries. There were other time the line was exceptional.

I think Tampa suffered just as much from the loss of Arians, he was the brains of that outfit. He was known as an offensive guru his entire career, I don't think it was coincidence it all fell apart once he got ousted.