The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Wozzy]

Hey, who needs facts when you can just go off of what Wozzy says. Of course he isn't a special case...just the most polarizing player in the draft and universally regarded as a boom or bust with few historic comparisons.

Josh Allen Is His Own Hype Man, and Also the Most Polarizing Player in the 2018 NFL Draft

On his Senior Bowl press tour, the Wyoming quarterback has been building himself up while his stats have been tearing him down

www.theringer.com

The Trouble With Finding Comparisons For Josh Allen

There is no more polarizing quarterback prospect in this year’s draft than Wyoming’s Josh Allen. The buzz is getting louder that the Browns will select Allen with the first overall pick; the more analytically inclined observers think that would be a disaster. In some minds, Allen doesn’t even...

www.footballperspective.com

I can provide you a hundred articles from 2018-2019 from Buffalo and national media as well as fan sites like this one where people universally refer to Josh Allen as a “draft bust.”

Again, this is uncomfortable for you because Mac might actually have an outside chance of improving… the way numerous rookies have in the past.

Mac wasn’t polarizing? Laughable… he was only successful because of the weapons he had at Alabama, he was fat and out of shape…. just about every rookie player comes with warts.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Fine… they had a ass hairs chance of winning.

Down 20-12 and scored a TD with a chance to tie with a 2-pt conversion. An ass hairs chance of winning? Still got some ways to go, but you're almost there.

How does that change the topic of the discussion that Brady got sacked 4 times, threw two interceptions as a result of his line coach not anticipating crowd noise or having his unit prepared to use the silent count?

Not in dispute. Frustrating to watch.

It doesn’t. Brady didn’t make his line look better, they made him look worse.

Someone makes a statement that Tom Brady makes his offensive lines better (which anyone can plainly see is a general statement.) You find the worst game of his career, in terms of offensive line play, to apparently make some kind of silly point.

This was true about the entirety of his career, it’s always a team sport. You’re more incensed I pointed out a game where Brady looked mortal because your a Tom superfan and any implication he’s human is too much to handle.

Huh? Brady got his ass kicked and didn't play well either for most of the game. He didn't see Miller and got picked off which was all on him. That isn't part of the discussion. I wanted to comment about how this goalpost moving, never-admitting-fault-until-you-die stuff is toxic for discussions because it is.

 

[Wozzy]

Down 20-12 and scored a TD with a chance to tie with a 2-pt conversion. An ass hairs chance of winning? Still got some ways to go, but you're almost there.

Not in dispute. Frustrating to watch.

Someone makes a statement that Tom Brady makes his offensive lines better (which anyone can plainly see is a general statement.) You find the worst game of his career, in terms of offensive line play, to apparently make some kind of silly point.

Huh? Brady got his ass kicked and didn't play well either for most of the game. He didn't see Miller and got picked off which was all on him. That isn't part of the discussion. I wanted to comment about how this goalpost moving, never-admitting-fault-until-you-die stuff is toxic for discussions because it is.

This ^ is ballwashing… Brady didn’t make his line better in 2015 when they were bad, they made him look bad.

Another uncomfortable truth too hard for you to accept.

 

[Real fan 02]

I know this, the Patriots were the most successful franchise in the history of the NFL 2001-2019.

Parcells is a brilliant head coach/team builder. He routinely turned around failing franchises. He certainly didn't leave the cupboard bear when he left NE.

And I know what "rebuilding and developing young talent looks like"... 25-26.

That's right!! BB had a great head start in building the dynasty.. inherited mc ginest, Malloy, law, Ted Johnson.. foundation pieces..

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I can provide you a hundred articles from 2018-2019 from Buffalo and national media as well as fan sites like this one where people universally refer to Josh Allen as a “draft bust.”

Again, this is uncomfortable for you because Mac might actually have an outside chance of improving… the way numerous rookies have in the past.

Mac wasn’t polarizing? Laughable… he was only successful because of the weapons he had at Alabama, he was fat and out of shape…. just about every rookie player comes with warts.

You can count me among those who laughed at Josh Allen. The point is that he always had - and even a skeptic like myself knew - incredible physical gifts and his level of improvement potential was always much higher than most prospects. With Jones, we're talking about marginal improvement potential, same with most QB prospects.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This ^ is ballwashing… Brady didn’t make his line better in 2015 when they were bad, they made him look bad.

Another uncomfortable truth too hard for you to accept.

"I didn't read your post" - Wozzy

 

[Wozzy]

You can count me among those who laughed at Josh Allen. The point is that he always had - and even a skeptic like myself knew - incredible physical gifts and his level of improvement potential was always much higher than most prospects. With Jones, we're talking about marginal improvement potential, same with most QB prospects.

I was skeptical of Josh Allen the draft prospect as well, I said he should convert to TE the same way Lamar Jackson should convert to WR or RB.

None of which changes that had Buffalo listened to the skeptics like Mac haters today, they would have missed out on a starting QB.

Pretending that QB’s are unique unicorns who develop, thrive or fail based entirely upon their own merit and the team around them plays no part in it is foolish. And don’t tell me that’s not what you said because it’s what Crawdaddy has been here arguing for 3 pages or more before you inserted yourself into the debate.

 

[Wozzy]

"I didn't read your post" - Wozzy

You didn’t read this thread before you took offense to a Brady reference… it’s why they built you guys your own little safe space over on the Brady pages.

You guys can’t have a rational discussion about the Patriots without telling us Tom had god like abilities.

 

[Wozzy]

That's right!! BB had a great head start in building the dynasty.. inherited mc ginest, Malloy, law, Ted Johnson.. foundation pieces..

The worst teams in the league have Pro Bowl caliber players on them. There was a whole coaching regime in between Parcells and BB… or don’t you remember the Pete Carroll years?

That’s a poor example for what amounts to unprecedented success in the NFL.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I was skeptical of Josh Allen the draft prospect as well, I said he should convert to TE the same way Lamar Jackson should convert to WR or RB.

None of which changes that had Buffalo listened to the skeptics like Mac haters today, they would have missed out on a starting QB.

The situations are very different.

Mac isn't a terrible QB like Allen was in 2018-19. Mac is good enough to win games the team should win; he's not going to lose games, usually. He just isn't good enough right now to really be the X-Factor where the Patriots should win due to a major advantage at QB, which the better teams have. Will he get to that level? Well, I think of it in terms this: most QBs facing Mac are also in the same boat...they just need this or that, they just need to improve here or there a little. Odds are none of them are going to take some big leap...they all have roughly the same (unlikely) chance of that huge improvement. And as they continue on that journey, other guys are being drafted.

Allen was bad and was costing the Bills games. The Bills stuck with him because of the upside, as they made a commitment to, and expected, his failures when they drafted him. It was all in the scouting reports and he was expected to show huge growing pains but had the ability to become a superstar quarterback because of his physical talent.

It seems your assessment of Mac is shallow and it's basically just "Mac is a professional quarterback" just like you told us for years that N'Keal Harry "is a professional wide receiver" and called everyone who dissented a "Bill hater" and "Brady fan boy."

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I was skeptical of Josh Allen the draft prospect as well, I said he should convert to TE the same way Lamar Jackson should convert to WR or RB.

None of which changes that had Buffalo listened to the skeptics like Mac haters today, they would have missed out on a starting QB.

Pretending that QB’s are unique unicorns who develop, thrive or fail based entirely upon their own merit and the team around them plays no part in it is foolish. And don’t tell me that’s not what you said because it’s what Crawdaddy has been here arguing for 3 pages or more before you inserted yourself into the debate.

You should have a private chat if you don't want others to point out your mistakes, such as the ridiculous notion that a touchdown drive with 1:52, trailing by 8, is "garbage time." I understand why you'd want to limit your audience because then others can't assert balance and you can continue to "win" in your skewed reality.

 

[Real fan 02]

The worst teams in the league have Pro Bowl caliber players on them. There was a whole coaching regime in between Parcells and BB… or don’t you remember the Pete Carroll years?

That’s a poor example for what amounts to unprecedented success in the NFL.

I don't understand your argument?? I think you're confusing me. Maybe you should re think your comments

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The worst teams in the league have Pro Bowl caliber players on them. There was a whole coaching regime in between Parcells and BB… or don’t you remember the Pete Carroll years?

That’s a poor example for what amounts to unprecedented success in the NFL.

I could have sworn Pete Carroll won both a college national championship and a Super Bowl (and made it to another Super Bowl), is 161-112 as a head coach, and has had a winning record 10 of the last 11 years.

Did that actually happen or was it all a dream?

 

[Real fan 02]

The worst teams in the league have Pro Bowl caliber players on them. There was a whole coaching regime in between Parcells and BB… or don’t you remember the Pete Carroll years?

That’s a poor example for what amounts to unprecedented success in the NFL.

What your saying is poor judgement of my post and illogical.. BB became HC in 2000.. was Malloy Mc ginisest, Ted Johnson ,law and. Brusichi there when he took the reigns? Last I checked they were.. so that's my statement on how he had took over an established locker room.. Ted Johnson even said that himself!

 

[Ian]

I could have sworn Pete Carroll won both a college national championship and a Super Bowl (and made it to another Super Bowl), is 161-112 as a head coach, and has had a winning record 10 of the last 11 years.

Did that actually happen or was it all a dream?

1997 Pete Carroll is not the same person as current Pete Carroll. Just like 1995 Bill Belichick is not the same person as current Bill Belichick. Although both guys - in my opinion - got a bit of a raw deal with their respective opportunities.

 

[Steve102]

1997 Pete Carroll is not the same person as current Pete Carroll. Just like 1995 Bill Belichick is not the same person as current Bill Belichick. Although both guys - in my opinion - got a bit of a raw deal with their respective opportunities.

Yeah, eff Pete Carroll. Took a Super Bowl team from Parcells and turned it into dogchit. Bailed on USC before the sanctions came down. Every time I see the highlight of Marshawn Lynch walking by Carroll I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Eff that guy all day.

 

[crawhammer]

The worst teams in the league have Pro Bowl caliber players on them. There was a whole coaching regime in between Parcells and BB… or don’t you remember the Pete Carroll years?

That’s a poor example for what amounts to unprecedented success in the NFL.

The point was Parcells drafted several players that were key contributors and team leaders during the Patriots dynasty 1.0. This is just a fact so I don't know why anyone would dispute it.

And the Carroll seasons weren't successful primarily because Bledsoe was a team wrecker.

 

[crawhammer]

I was skeptical of Josh Allen the draft prospect as well, I said he should convert to TE the same way Lamar Jackson should convert to WR or RB.

Allen is a top 3 QB in the NFL.
Jackson won an NFL MVP as a QB.

You're not an NFL executive I take it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

1997 Pete Carroll is not the same person as current Pete Carroll. Just like 1995 Bill Belichick is not the same person as current Bill Belichick. Although both guys - in my opinion - got a bit of a raw deal with their respective opportunities.

I think they've basically been as good as their players. Bill's splits with/without Brady correlate with this. Carroll might be a little less correlated (especially this last season with G. Smith) but that Seahawks team was loaded on a defense and had an above average QB in Wilson.

People say Carroll was such a terrible coach in New England, but you could also look at it as a failure by personnel with Grier. Yeah, it was a downward spiral from 10 - 9 - 8 wins, but then Belichick took over and they won 5. I assume Belichick was the same coach he was in 2000 than he was in 2001, and after that 0-2 start, things started to change. I just can't imagine that coincidentally Bill grew super powers of intellect.

 

[crawhammer]

Pretending that QB’s are unique unicorns who develop, thrive or fail based entirely upon their own merit and the team around them plays no part in it is foolish. And don’t tell me that’s not what you said because it’s what Crawdaddy has been here arguing for 3 pages or more before you inserted yourself into the debate.

Maybe this is why you're spinning your wheels? You're arguing against things I never said. For instance: "QB’s are unique unicorns who develop, thrive or fail based entirely upon their own merit and the team around them plays no part in it"

I've never said it's 100% about the quarterback, which is what you keep repeating. Everyone is a factor... all 53, coaching staff, management, ownership... the quarterback, especially an elite one like Brady, generally gets the highest percentage. Highest, not all of it. And generally, the quarterback is the piece that you can least afford to lose.