Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[TommyD4207]

Can Newton MVP and #1 overall pick
Drew Bledsoe #1 overall pick
Vinnie Testaverde #1 overall pick

0 Super Bowls.

None of them sucked. None of them were bad QBs.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I believe with the draft capital they have and the FA space the team will be more talented than last years team and have more depth. They will get younger and faster too. But AGAIN, so will 31 other teams.

The other teams is where I differ. Just staying close to home, the Bills, the Jets and Miami all have cap and free agent struggles in various degrees. We have some $50m more cap space than the Bills or Miami and a way better draft haul.
We are easily top 10 in both draft capital and cap space and we will have way better coaching than last year. So in theory at least we should gain on most of the teams ahead of us.
This is the first year in a while where we aren't hungover from bad or lost/traded draft picks. We also haven't mortgaged our future with void years and dead money and we have the best draft capital in years. Unlucky though that the draft isn't rich in OL and WRs.

 

[Wozzy]

You're not familiar with Brady's Michigan accomplishments. Some pretty impressive things there.

6th round pick… only one team thought so. The rest thought they could grab him as an UDFA.

Funny how Bill or Charlie haven't been able to spread their pixie dust on any other quarterbacks.

They’ve had the same one for 20 years. But Cassel, Jimmy and a few of the backups turned out pretty good.

You should rewatch the divisional game vs the Raiders. Seems like you couldn't see Brady's great play through the snowflakes. And you shut SB 36 off when Madden said the Patriots should kneel down for OT. Past your bedtime.

He played great… you told me Foles and Flacco were great also. Seems you don’t need magic at all… just solid QB play and limiting mistakes. 1 TD in the entire playoffs, nobody said Tom didn’t play well… they said Tom was a game manager who was being handled by his coaches. Your recollection that he was a world beater exiting college who taught his coaches everything he knew is dog sht.

Right, he wasn't the number one overall pick, which made his early accomplishments all the more impressive. Brady has way more heart than Andrew Luck and way more nerve than Peyton Manning. Things that you overlook. As for being called the GOAT, that of course takes time for justification. He earned the title after SB 49 (age 37).

Tom had a much better team and coaching than either of those two. It starts there. “Heart” disappears quickly in the NFL when you’re running for your life because your blocking sucks. We’re talking real football… not fantasy football.

 

[Wozzy]

I love how we just throw out stats without accounting for context or passing environment. Brady was 6th in the league in passer rating in 2001, and the Patriots offense (and passing offense) ranked higher than their defense by DVOA. 18 TDs and 12 INTs is pretty ****ty these days (though still better than what Mac Jones put up last year), but it was good for 2001. Brady made the Pro Bowl that year and not as an alternate.

He played well his sophomore year when he finally got a chance to start, for his age and pedigree.

Garbage is the idea Tom arrived like a dynamo and set the passing world alight. It’s nonsense. He limited mistakes, put in the work to improve and the team around him was great.

 

[Ian]

You're not familiar with Brady's Michigan accomplishments. Some pretty impressive things there.

I can tell you for a fact that very few people on the then version of this board blinked an eye at his selection, and most people didn’t even mention his name with the exception of Michigan alumni. You sort of talk like you followed his entire career coming out of college, which I definitely don’t think was the case.

I was there for his entire first season in 2000 and Tom wasn’t exactly somebody that stood out. He was at best an afterthought, although I remember watching him at camp and thought he was a better QB than the guys behind Drew that year. But I won’t lie and say I thought he’d ever unseat him.

In the end it was his work ethic - I don’t think Bledsoe was nearly as motivated - and his belief in himself that ultimately got him to where he came to be, and I think all of us are happy with how it all turned out. But even then, it took a couple of seasons, even with the championships, before it really became about him vs the defense and the ground game they initially built around him.

He was a good player who made the plays they needed him to and didn’t turn it over. But then he grew, got stronger, and started making the guys around him better, and the rest is history. But your condescending tone about acting like you knew it all along and everyone else is an idiot is a little frustrating.

Those of us who were there at the beginning know it didn’t play out easily, and good for him for not only making the most of it, but also for not letting up for the next 2+ decades. All you did is enjoy the ride like the rest of us did. No need to keep acting like you knew better when many of us lived that period in real time and were just as pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

 

[Steve102]

I can tell you for a fact that very few people on the then version of this board blinked an eye at his selection, and most people didn’t even mention his name with the exception of Michigan alumni. You sort of talk like you followed his entire career coming out of college, which I definitely don’t think was the case.

I was there for his entire first season in 2000 and Tom wasn’t exactly somebody that stood out. He was at best an afterthought, although I remember watching him at camp and thought he was a better QB than the guys behind Drew that year. But I won’t lie and say I thought he’d ever unseat him.

In the end it was his work ethic - I don’t think Bledsoe was nearly as motivated - and his belief in himself that ultimately got him to where he came to be, and I think all of us are happy with how it all turned out. But even then, it took a couple of seasons, even with the championships, before it really became about him vs the defense and the ground game they initially built around him.

He was a good player who made the plays they needed him to and didn’t turn it over. But then he grew, got stronger, and started making the guys around him better, and the rest is history. But your condescending tone about acting like you knew it all along and everyone else is an idiot is a little frustrating.

Those of us who were there at the beginning know it didn’t play out easily, and good for him for not only making the most of it, but also for not letting up for the next 2+ decades. All you did is enjoy the ride like the rest of us did. No need to keep acting like you knew better when many of us lived that period in real time and were just as pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

 

[Ian]

I will say that one of the more satisfying things about that story was also the fact that after Henson failed in his baseball career, he was ****y enough to still believe 'if Tom could do it, I can do it' and made a move to the NFL before he failed there as well. Nothing better than seeing that type of person get their comeuppance.

 

[Steve102]

I will say that one of the more satisfying things about that story was also the fact that after Henson failed in his baseball career, he was ****y enough to still believe 'if Tom could do it, I can do it' and made a move to the NFL before he failed there as well. Nothing better than seeing that type of person get their comeuppance.

It's no wonder that he had a chip on his shoulder for most of his career.

 

[venecol]

Bellichick was a MASSIVE influence in Brady's development. Christ, for the first 3 years of Brady's career, it was Bellichick who was his QB coach. I never hear you mention that nugget. You said something about trying to build another contender with a top 15 or so QB. Well for at least his first 3 superbowl wins, that's how he was viewed by many.

Ken, I'm not getting into your discussion w/ craw but you keep on repeating the bolded part even after you've been previously corrected.

2000: QB Coach - **** Rehbein
Rehbein was instrumental in recommending and pushing for the drafting of Brady in 2000. Belichick made it clear that **** was "the guy that's most responsible" for Brady being a Patriot. Brady said before winning his first SB, "Coach Rehbein was a tremendous influence on my life, on all the quarterbacks' lives on what it takes to be successful."

You also don't give Brady enough credit for the person he was before joining the Patriots. What he lacked in athletic attributes, he more than made up for in the intangibles that are the main reason for him becoming the GOAT: his competitiveness, toughness and heart. You can't coach that. From Michigan's Coach Carr:

"I told Bobby (Grier) that they'd never regret drafting him and that Tom had every intangible you could ask for," Carr recalled by phone. "I remember his first scrimmage as a true freshman, when I was the interim coach and Tom wasn't physically developed yet. The defense just knocked the hell out of him, and he kept getting up. He took a beating and kept standing in there and throwing the ball, and that was the day the whole coaching staff realized just how tough Tom was."

2001: QB Coach - **** Rehbein
After Brady (4th stringer) ascended up the depth chart during the '01 TC to win the backup job behind Bledsoe, sadly Rehbein passed before he could witness Brady's first start. Belichick never replaced him that season; he split the QB coaching duties with Charlie Weis. Bill did however establish a close working relationship with him and imparted his knowledge of opposing defenses.

2002: QB/OC - Charlie Weis

2003: QB Coach - John Hufnagel
Hufnagel had previously served as QB Coach for Peyton Manning and Mark Brunnel before helping Brady win his 2nd SB MVP in '03. He went on to become the Giants OC after the '03 season.

2004: QB Coach - Josh McDaniels
We all know how Brady's relationship with Josh turned out.

The point is Belichick served as a co-QB coach w/ Charlie Weiss for the 2001 season and not for Brady's first 3 seasons as you stated. This of course doesn't imply that Belichick didn't have an influence on Brady because he obviously did but there's no need to stray from the facts to embelish it.

 

[Wozzy]

Ken, I'm not getting into your discussion w/ craw but you keep on repeating the bolded part even after you've been previously corrected.

2000: QB Coach - **** Rehbein
Rehbein was instrumental in recommending and pushing for the drafting of Brady in 2000. Belichick made it clear that **** was "the guy that's most responsible" for Brady being a Patriot. Brady said before winning his first SB, "Coach Rehbein was a tremendous influence on my life, on all the quarterbacks' lives on what it takes to be successful."

You also don't give Brady enough credit for the person he was before joining the Patriots. What he lacked in athletic attributes, he more than made up for in the intangibles that are the main reason for him becoming the GOAT: his competitiveness, toughness and heart. You can't coach that. From Michigan's Coach Carr:

"I told Bobby (Grier) that they'd never regret drafting him and that Tom had every intangible you could ask for," Carr recalled by phone. "I remember his first scrimmage as a true freshman, when I was the interim coach and Tom wasn't physically developed yet. The defense just knocked the hell out of him, and he kept getting up. He took a beating and kept standing in there and throwing the ball, and that was the day the whole coaching staff realized just how tough Tom was."

2001: QB Coach - **** Rehbein
After Brady (4th stringer) ascended up the depth chart during the '01 TC to win the backup job behind Bledsoe, sadly Rehbein passed before he could witness Brady's first start. Belichick never replaced him that season; he split the QB coaching duties with Charlie Weis. Bill did however establish a close working relationship with him and imparted his knowledge of opposing defenses.

2002: QB/OC - Charlie Weis

2003: QB Coach - John Hufnagel
Hufnagel had previously served as QB Coach for Peyton Manning and Mark Brunnel before helping Brady win his 2nd SB MVP in '03. He went on to become the Giants OC after the '03 season.

2004: QB Coach - Josh McDaniels
We all know how Brady's relationship with Josh turned out.

The point is Belichick served as a co-QB coach w/ Charlie Weiss for the 2001 season and not for Brady's first 3 seasons as you stated. This of course doesn't imply that Belichick didn't have an influence on Brady because he obviously did but there's no need to stray from the facts to embelish it.

Brady said himself that for the entirety of his career, he and Bill would sit and dissect film of that week’s opponent… for 20 years.

The only embellishment happening here is by the Brady-stans pretending Brady arrived like a locomotive and taught his coaches how to win NFL football games.

He was a project who developed into the greatest ever… he was still a project. The Pat’s strength and conditioning coach deserves a lot of credit for his early development as well.

 

[venecol]

Brady said himself that for the entirety of his career, he and Bill would sit and dissect film of that week’s opponent… for 20 years.

The only embellishment happening here is by the Brady-stans pretending Brady arrived like a locomotive and taught his coaches how to win NFL football games.

Going over film and the game plan doesn't make Belichick, Brady's QB coach. That was my only point. Try to keep up.

 

[Rob0729]

I can tell you for a fact that very few people on the then version of this board blinked an eye at his selection, and most people didn’t even mention his name with the exception of Michigan alumni. You sort of talk like you followed his entire career coming out of college, which I definitely don’t think was the case.

I was there for his entire first season in 2000 and Tom wasn’t exactly somebody that stood out. He was at best an afterthought, although I remember watching him at camp and thought he was a better QB than the guys behind Drew that year. But I won’t lie and say I thought he’d ever unseat him.

In the end it was his work ethic - I don’t think Bledsoe was nearly as motivated - and his belief in himself that ultimately got him to where he came to be, and I think all of us are happy with how it all turned out. But even then, it took a couple of seasons, even with the championships, before it really became about him vs the defense and the ground game they initially built around him.

He was a good player who made the plays they needed him to and didn’t turn it over. But then he grew, got stronger, and started making the guys around him better, and the rest is history. But your condescending tone about acting like you knew it all along and everyone else is an idiot is a little frustrating.

Those of us who were there at the beginning know it didn’t play out easily, and good for him for not only making the most of it, but also for not letting up for the next 2+ decades. All you did is enjoy the ride like the rest of us did. No need to keep acting like you knew better when many of us lived that period in real time and were just as pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

In 2000, Brady did stand out enough for Belichick to keep four QBs on the Patriots active roster rather than trying to pass Brady through waivers and hope he can put him on the practice squad. That is probably the extent of his standing out that year. That was the year the "Put in Bishop" crowd was the loudest.

BTW, Greg Cossell of NFL Films was on Tom Currans' podcast yesterday. He said that Charlie Weis told him that Brady wasn't Brady for the first four or five years of his career and that Brady did need help from a good running game and a great defense during that period.

 

[crawhammer]

6th round pick… only one team thought so. The rest thought they could grab him as an UDFA.

Which makes his career all the more improbable and remarkable. Celebrate your once in a lifetime magical unicorn quarterback!

They’ve had the same one for 20 years. But Cassel, Jimmy and a few of the backups turned out pretty good.

How many division titles, playoff games and Super Bowls did Belichick win with Cassel and Jimmy as his starter? 0.

Cassel's NFL career was not "pretty good." Look at the one postseason shot he had: 9-18 for 70 with 0 TD & 3 INTs.

The story of Garoppolo's career is injuries and grossly ineffective postseason play.

He played great… you told me Foles and Flacco were great also. Seems you don’t need magic at all… just solid QB play and limiting mistakes. 1 TD in the entire playoffs, nobody said Tom didn’t play well… they said Tom was a game manager who was being handled by his coaches. Your recollection that he was a world beater exiting college who taught his coaches everything he knew is dog sht.

Bill Belichick (February 6, 2023):

"I learned so much from Tom because, as you know, I never played quarterback and I never saw the game through the quarterback's eyes. I saw it through a coach's eyes. And Tom would tell me what he saw and how he saw it. It was incredible how during the game, he'd come off and I'd say, 'What happened on that play?' And he'd go through eight things that happened: tackle flash in front of me; this guy slipped; I saw the linebacker drop wide; safety was a little deeper than I thought he would be; and then this guy stepped in front and I kind of put it a little bit behind him because I saw this other guy closing. And then you'd go back and look at the film, and every one of those things happened in the exact sequence that he explained it to you on the field. I'm like, 'This guy sees everything.'"

So what were you saying is "dog ****"?

A. Wozzy: "Tom was a game manager who was being handled by his coaches."

B. Belichick: "Tom taught me so much. Tom sees everything. And every one of those things happened in the exact sequence that he explained it to you."

I'll go with A is a steaming pile of .

Tom had a much better team and coaching than either of those two. It starts there. “Heart” disappears quickly in the NFL when you’re running for your life because your blocking sucks. We’re talking real football… not fantasy football.

Oh, stop it. Peyton had a HOF head coach Tony Dungy, who has a higher career winning% than Belichick. Peyton also played with two HOF receivers and a HOF running back in Indianapolis. He played with all-star teams in Denver and he was absolutely carried by his defense to a SB championship in his final season (when he was running on fumes).

Peyton was a great quarterback but he lacked nerve and more often than not he came up short in the biggest moments. The opposite of Brady.

Luck is a quitter. After taking a full season off, and then returning to the best pass protection in the NFL in 2018, he punted the rest of his career. Also, the opposite of Brady.

 

[Calhoun44]

BTW, Greg Cossell of NFL Films was on Tom Currans' podcast yesterday. He said that Charlie Weis told him that Brady wasn't Brady for the first four or five years of his career and that Brady did need help from a good running game and a great defense during that period.

I understand what Charlie means by this, but I disagree with it. My point of view is that Brady was always Brady, but he just needed time for his physical body to improve (footwork, strength, arm development, etc.) along with time to digest the ins and outs of the NFL game. When I think about what makes Brady be Brady, I think of toughness, lightning speed decision making, selflessness, his willingness to be vigorously coached, his team first attitude, determination and constant striving for excellence. When an employee/player comes into your sphere with those characteristics you as a coach/employer notice it and find ways to encourage and magnify those attributes. BB did that in a way that others may have screwed up or not valued, or possibly others may have done better, who really knows? What I do know is that it worked out better than any other duo in the history of the league and the relationship was built on so much mutual respect and appreciation for each other that it lasted 20 years. That is a small miracle and we as Pats fans got to bask in its glory for those glorious years. I will never second guess either of their past accomplishments or decisions because I would feel like an entitled pr1ck. I'd rather just be content and look to what the future brings...I am hopeful Mac and BOB will form an amazing relationship and begin to build a solid foundation so that we can compete this coming year.

 

[Calhoun44]

Bill Belichick (February 6, 2023):

"I learned so much from Tom because, as you know, I never played quarterback and I never saw the game through the quarterback's eyes. I saw it through a coach's eyes. And Tom would tell me what he saw and how he saw it. It was incredible how during the game, he'd come off and I'd say, 'What happened on that play?' And he'd go through eight things that happened: tackle flash in front of me; this guy slipped; I saw the linebacker drop wide; safety was a little deeper than I thought he would be; and then this guy stepped in front and I kind of put it a little bit behind him because I saw this other guy closing. And then you'd go back and look at the film, and every one of those things happened in the exact sequence that he explained it to you on the field. I'm like, 'This guy sees everything.'"

I love this quote...
For at least two reasons:
First, BB is clearly willing to learn from his players and understands his limitations as a coach "only" on the sidelines. That is a very important attribute as a leader of people. Love it to no end.
Secondly, how cool is it to hear that from a coach that has been around football his whole life and coached in the NFL for 40 years? His admiration for this skill (among others that he mentioned in the podcast) was very genuine and said with such reverence that it articulated the rarity of that skillset. Brady was great for many reasons, but this quote was really cool to hear from BB. Love it so much that it has inspired me to watch some old Brady games from early in his career.

Thanks for posting this quote.... Love the fcuk out of it.

 

[venecol]

It was probably that dumb ass Fat Matt who said that.

Not sure about that exact quote but the sentiment is attributed to none other than the QB whisperer, the one and only QB coach Joe Judge. Lol

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not sure about that exact quote but the sentiment is attributed to none other than the QB whisperer, the one and only QB coach Joe Judge. Lol

************. I guess dipshit Judge took those "Johnny Foxboro" needles by Bill towards Tom a bit too seriously...

 

[RobertWeathers]

I love this quote...
For at least two reasons:
First, BB is clearly willing to learn from his players and understands his limitations as a coach "only" on the sidelines. That is a very important attribute as a leader of people. Love it to no end.
Secondly, how cool is it to hear that from a coach that has been around football his whole life and coached in the NFL for 40 years? His admiration for this skill (among others that he mentioned in the podcast) was very genuine and said with such reverence that it articulated the rarity of that skillset. Brady was great for many reasons, but this quote was really cool to hear from BB. Love it so much that it has inspired me to watch some old Brady games from early in his career.

Thanks for posting this quote.... Love the fcuk out of it.

There was a BB presser a few years ago (2009?) when a reporter asked BB what makes a great player "great". He specifically said great players see the game differently. He went on to name LT, Tom and Randy Moss

 

[Steve102]

I love this quote...
For at least two reasons:
First, BB is clearly willing to learn from his players and understands his limitations as a coach "only" on the sidelines. That is a very important attribute as a leader of people. Love it to no end.
Secondly, how cool is it to hear that from a coach that has been around football his whole life and coached in the NFL for 40 years? His admiration for this skill (among others that he mentioned in the podcast) was very genuine and said with such reverence that it articulated the rarity of that skillset. Brady was great for many reasons, but this quote was really cool to hear from BB. Love it so much that it has inspired me to watch some old Brady games from early in his career.

Thanks for posting this quote.... Love the fcuk out of it.

It is super cool. I'd like to know when this happened. At what point did Bill know Tom was special? I don't think he alluded to that, did he?

 

[crawhammer]

I can tell you for a fact that very few people on the then version of this board blinked an eye at his selection, and most people didn’t even mention his name with the exception of Michigan alumni. You sort of talk like you followed his entire career coming out of college, which I definitely don’t think was the case.

I was there for his entire first season in 2000 and Tom wasn’t exactly somebody that stood out. He was at best an afterthought, although I remember watching him at camp and thought he was a better QB than the guys behind Drew that year. But I won’t lie and say I thought he’d ever unseat him.

In the end it was his work ethic - I don’t think Bledsoe was nearly as motivated - and his belief in himself that ultimately got him to where he came to be, and I think all of us are happy with how it all turned out. But even then, it took a couple of seasons, even with the championships, before it really became about him vs the defense and the ground game they initially built around him.

He was a good player who made the plays they needed him to and didn’t turn it over. But then he grew, got stronger, and started making the guys around him better, and the rest is history. But your condescending tone about acting like you knew it all along and everyone else is an idiot is a little frustrating.

Those of us who were there at the beginning know it didn’t play out easily, and good for him for not only making the most of it, but also for not letting up for the next 2+ decades. All you did is enjoy the ride like the rest of us did. No need to keep acting like you knew better when many of us lived that period in real time and were just as pleasantly surprised with the outcome.

This what I said: "You're not familiar with Brady's Michigan accomplishments. Some pretty impressive things there."

How is that condescending? Wozzy made it sound like Brady was a bum at Michigan. I would suspect a lot of people here were watching bowl games in 2000. Brady, in final collegiate game (Orange Bowl), passed for 369 yards with 4 TDs and overcame two 14-point deficits to win 35-34. He had led a game-winning drive in the Citrus Bowl the season prior. So he had some impressive accomplishments at Michigan. Which is all I said.

Did anyone expect Brady to become the clear cut GOAT after he was drafted by the Patriots? Of course not. After they signed Bledsoe to the mega contract, I figured the the team was doomed for the next decade. Which is what it would have been with Bledsoe. I knew who Brady was but I wasn't paying much attention to him because of the circumstances at the time which looked like he would be the backup at best.

Of course Bledsoe had a poor start to the 2001 season before Mo Lewis knocked him out. To me it was clear rather quickly that Brady was the better QB for the team. He wasn't spectacular that first season, but he was good, and then he played great in the divisional (in the blizzard) and led the improbable game-winning drive in the Super Bowl.

Beyond the 2001 season, I didn't consider Brady to be a "game manager." He led the NFL in TDs, then passing yards, made pro bowls (for real), received NFL MVP votes, and won postseason games with consistent clutch performances.

I don't know why you're turning this into being about me? And what I did or did not know. I briefly outlined some that above. But Brady has a record at Michigan, which anyone can easily review, before assuming he was just a pudgy talentless goof when Bill got ahold of him.