Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[Ian]

In 2000, Brady did stand out enough for Belichick to keep four QBs on the Patriots active roster rather than trying to pass Brady through waivers and hope he can put him on the practice squad. That is probably the extent of his standing out that year. That was the year the "Put in Bishop" crowd was the loudest.

I meant stand out in terms of how he was viewed by the fans. The story of Belichick not wanting to waive him and keeping four QBs is well-documented, and you're right, the "Bishop" people were pretty loud that year. Although Belichick didn't help that situation by bringing it up early on after he was hired:

Belichick Discusses The Michael Bishop Factor

Don't be surprised to see Michael Bishop at some point during next season.

www.patsfans.com

 

[Ian]

BTW, Greg Cossell of NFL Films was on Tom Currans' podcast yesterday. He said that Charlie Weis told him that Brady wasn't Brady for the first four or five years of his career and that Brady did need help from a good running game and a great defense during that period.

And I listened to it this morning, great stuff on there. Forgot how dominant Dillon really was that year. 1635 yards in 2004 ... crazy.

 

[Ian]

How many division titles, playoff games and Super Bowls did Belichick win with Cassel

I don't get how you guys dismiss an 11-5 season and not look back on that year - maybe you weren't following the team as closely - and end up impressed with what he managed to do with that team, as well as aggravated as we all were about losing the tie-breaker and being frustrated with the NFL's playoff format. In the pre-I-hate-Bill-Belichick days, people rooted for the team and were irritated with how that year finished.

You can call it a failure and count it against him, looking back on paper. I'll remember it how it happened. He went 11-5 with a guy who hadn't started a game since high school and I feel like Cassell might have won a postseason game had the opportunity been there given how much he improved over the course of that season.

and Jimmy as his starter? 0.

Mentioning Jimmy is a ridiculous comment since Jimmy never started a full season here. But since you're a fan of technicalities, Belichick won a Super Bowl the same year Garoppolo started games for him.

 

[Zuma]

 

[venecol]

This what I said: "You're not familiar with Brady's Michigan accomplishments. Some pretty impressive things there."

How is that condescending? Wozzy made it sound like Brady was a bum at Michigan. I would suspect a lot of people here were watching bowl games in 2000. Brady, in final collegiate game (Orange Bowl), passed for 369 yards with 4 TDs and overcame two 14-point deficits to win 35-34. He had led a game-winning drive in the Citrus Bowl the season prior. So he had some impressive accomplishments at Michigan. Which is all I said.

Did anyone expect Brady to become the clear cut GOAT after he was drafted by the Patriots? Of course not. After they signed Bledsoe to the mega contract, I figured the the team was doomed for the next decade. Which is what it would have been with Bledsoe. I knew who Brady was but I wasn't paying much attention to him because of the circumstances at the time which looked like he would be the backup at best.

Of course Bledsoe had a poor start to the 2001 season before Mo Lewis knocked him out. To me it was clear rather quickly that Brady was the better QB for the team. He wasn't spectacular that first season, but he was good, and then he played great in the divisional (in the blizzard) and led the improbable game-winning drive in the Super Bowl.

Beyond the 2001 season, I didn't consider Brady to be a "game manager." He led the NFL in TDs, then passing yards, made pro bowls (for real), received NFL MVP votes, and won postseason games with consistent clutch performances.

I don't know why you're turning this into being about me? And what I did or did not know. I briefly outlined some that above. But Brady has a record at Michigan, which anyone can easily review, before assuming he was just a pudgy talentless goof when Bill got ahold of him.

I think people should read about Brady's career at Michigan. There's a lot of insightful comments from his college coaches and others that helped Brady nurture what he always was. Like @Calhoun44 said in a post above, Brady was always Brady. You can't coach intangibles into a person. The amount of "heart" a player has doesn't show up on scouting reports. This is coming from a Bledsoe guy (happy to admit I was dead wrong).

That said, there's little doubt that as it relates to the NFL game, Brady needed both coaching and strength conditioning to allow him to compete at the next level. Having one of the greatest defensive minds in NFL history dedicate time to give him insight into how NFL defenses work is invaluable information from which he benefitted.

I agree with @Calhoun44 that it was the combination of having Brady/Belichick (and Kraft) together for 20 years that allowed the two decade dynasties to be successful. That combination for that length of time had never happened before and more than likely will never happen again. We were lucky to witness it.

On this Tom vs Bill debate, it will never go away. That's the nature of sports. I moved on a while ago and find the debate boring. Some people believe coaches matter more than players, others believe players are more important. Both sides agree they both matter but disagree on the level of importance. Whatever.

 

[Rob0729]

I understand what Charlie means by this, but I disagree with it. My point of view is that Brady was always Brady, but he just needed time for his physical body to improve (footwork, strength, arm development, etc.) along with time to digest the ins and outs of the NFL game. When I think about what makes Brady be Brady, I think of toughness, lightning speed decision making, selflessness, his willingness to be vigorously coached, his team first attitude, determination and constant striving for excellence. When an employee/player comes into your sphere with those characteristics you as a coach/employer notice it and find ways to encourage and magnify those attributes. BB did that in a way that others may have screwed up or not valued, or possibly others may have done better, who really knows? What I do know is that it worked out better than any other duo in the history of the league and the relationship was built on so much mutual respect and appreciation for each other that it lasted 20 years. That is a small miracle and we as Pats fans got to bask in its glory for those glorious years. I will never second guess either of their past accomplishments or decisions because I would feel like an entitled pr1ck. I'd rather just be content and look to what the future brings...I am hopeful Mac and BOB will form an amazing relationship and begin to build a solid foundation so that we can compete this coming year.

I don't think Brady was always Brady. I don't think any elite QB is remotely a finished product when they come into the league. One of Brady's most underrated strengths was so hard he worked to improve himself and not just physically. Brady probably couldn't read defenses and process information on the field in his first few years as he could later in his career.

Brady spent more time in the film room than everyone else, not just the training room. Just like anything else, the more you work at the mental part of the game, the better you get at it.

 

[venecol]

I don't think Brady was always Brady. I don't think any elite QB is remotely a finished product when they come into the league. One of Brady's most underrated strengths was so hard he worked to improve himself and not just physically. Brady probably couldn't read defenses and process information on the field in his first few years as he could later in his career.

Brady spent more time in the film room than everyone else, not just the training room. Just like anything else, the more you work at the mental part of the game, the better you get at it.

We're going to have to see a tweet from Orlavsky saying this or it's not true.

 

[Rob0729]

We're going to have to see a tweet from Orlavsky saying this or it's not true.

Yawn, your schtick gets worse and worse. You were more clever back in the Brady/Belichick endless wars days. You were pretty lame back then too, but more clever than now.

 

[Rob0729]

 

[venecol]

So the entire league was laughing at Belichick, Fat Matt and Judge. Nothing surprising here.

 

[crawhammer]

I don't get how you guys dismiss an 11-5 season and not look back on that year - maybe you weren't following the team as closely - and end up impressed with what he managed to do with that team, as well as aggravated as we all were about losing the tie-breaker and being frustrated with the NFL's playoff format. In the pre-I-hate-Bill-Belichick days, people rooted for the team and were irritated with how that year finished.

You can call it a failure and count it against him, looking back on paper. I'll remember it how it happened. He went 11-5 with a guy who hadn't started a game since high school and I feel like Cassell might have won a postseason game had the opportunity been there given how much he improved over the course of that season.

I don't get why you guys talk up a no-playoffs season. Most people following the team had them getting back to the Super Bowl with Brady. Yet we're supposed to be happy with a feel good Rudy story instead? No thank you. The moment Brady's ACL was confirmed, everyone knew the Super Bowl aspirations for the team were DEAD. With Brady at QB the goal was always the Super Bowl.

Hypothetically, let's say Belichick misses the 2008 season instead of Brady. Josh is the head coach. How far would that team have gone with Brady and Josh?

Another way of asking this is who would you have rather had for the 2008 season: Bill and Cassel or Josh and Brady?

I'm taking Josh and Brady in an instant.

 

[sb1]

I don't get how you guys dismiss an 11-5 season and not look back on that year - maybe you weren't following the team as closely - and end up impressed with what he managed to do with that team, as well as aggravated as we all were about losing the tie-breaker and being frustrated with the NFL's playoff format. In the pre-I-hate-Bill-Belichick days, people rooted for the team and were irritated with how that year finished.

You can call it a failure and count it against him, looking back on paper. I'll remember it how it happened. He went 11-5 with a guy who hadn't started a game since high school and I feel like Cassell might have won a postseason game had the opportunity been there given how much he improved over the course of that season.

Mentioning Jimmy is a ridiculous comment since Jimmy never started a full season here. But since you're a fan of technicalities, Belichick won a Super Bowl the same year Garoppolo started games for him.

Good read. Rodney had a lot of great things to say about Bill: What the Brady-less 2008 Season Taught Us About Bill Belichick

I think the Patriots were too banged up in the secondary, plus the defense was starting to show its age. That was a big reason why they couldn't beat good teams. I think they started to peak at the right time but just ran out of time. Blew the doors off the NFC Champs in December and that counts for something. I don't think they would have gotten by Pitt in the playoffs but who knows?

 

[RIpats88]

Honestly Brady was clutch and a good QB but I feel he didn't really become the brady we know until 2007

 

[Ian]

I don't get why you guys talk up a no-playoffs season. Most people following the team had them getting back to the Super Bowl with Brady. Yet we're supposed to be happy with a feel good Rudy story instead? No thank you. The moment Brady's ACL was confirmed, everyone knew the Super Bowl aspirations for the team were DEAD. With Brady at QB the goal was always the Super Bowl.

A couple of things:

A) It shouldn't be "you guys", although I guess "you guys" refers to those of us who had a rooting interest in the team and still actively followed that season like every other year, albeit Brady's injury forced us to lower our expectations. You're looking at it 15 years later and just viewing the net result, so you didn't endure the same emotional roller coaster in what ended up being a fairly remarkable season where every week we literally had no idea how it might go, yet they won 11 games.

B) And obviously, when Brady went down, that changed everything. But instead of a potential 6-11 season and everything unraveling, they went 11-5, which is pretty amazing considering it was Cassel that got them there. Bill deserves most of the credit for that.

Again, you want to crap on that season because you hate Bill, I get it. But it doesn't change the fact that the season played out the way it did, and most of us ended up enjoying watching Cassel evolve and turn into - at the time - a decent player. As I said, I would have liked to have seen what he did in the playoffs, but alas, it is what it is.

And BTW, there was a sizable contingent on here who wanted to keep Cassel and trade Brady. I sort of wonder back then, given your contrarian style, which side of the fence you would have fallen on there

 

[Steve102]

A) It shouldn't be "you guys",

Tells me the guy is not a Pats fans at all, otherwise it'd be "us". It's always him, talking down to us because he thinks he is the smartest one on the forum.

 

[Ian]

Tells me the guy is not a Pats fans at all, otherwise it'd be "us". It's always him, talking down to us because he thinks he is the smartest one on the forum.

It's just frustrating when someone who claims to be a fan of the team dismisses what ended up being a fascinating season considering the overall mood in here after that game. I guess, according to him, we should have switched off the TV and followed basketball and/or hockey until free agency and the draft. And worse, we should have been annoyed that Bill couldn't win the Super Bowl with Cassel. Stupid Bill.

 

[Steve102]

It's just frustrating when someone who claims to be a fan of the team dismisses what ended up being a fascinating season considering the overall mood in here after that game. I guess, according to him, we should have switched off the TV and followed basketball and/or hockey until free agency and the draft. And worse, we should have been annoyed that Bill couldn't win the Super Bowl with Cassel. Stupid Bill.

I'm done with it. Any dope can scour Pro Football Stats, History, Scores, Standings, Playoffs, Schedule & Records | Pro-Football-Reference.com, come up with fantasy stats and do a cheap ass Felger impression just to troll ****. I'll talk to real fans all day, not this spreadsheet analyzing buffoon that knows nothing about football.

I know that's pretty harsh for me, that I usually go along to get along, but the dude just spouts **** to argue about. I'm done with his act.

 

[sb1]

A couple of things:

A) It shouldn't be "you guys", although I guess "you guys" refers to those of us who had a rooting interest in the team and still actively followed that season like every other year, albeit Brady's injury forced us to lower our expectations. You're looking at it 15 years later and just viewing the net result, so you didn't endure the same emotional roller coaster in what ended up being a fairly remarkable season where every week we literally had no idea how it might go, yet they won 11 games.

B) And obviously, when Brady went down, that changed everything. But instead of a potential 6-11 season and everything unraveling, they went 11-5, which is pretty amazing considering it was Cassel that got them there. Bill deserves most of the credit for that.

Again, you want to crap on that season because you hate Bill, I get it. But it doesn't change the fact that the season played out the way it did, and most of us ended up enjoying watching Cassel evolve and turn into - at the time - a decent player. As I said, I would have liked to have seen what he did in the playoffs, but alas, it is what it is.

And BTW, there was a sizable contingent on here who wanted to keep Cassel and trade Brady. I sort of wonder back then, given your contrarian style, which side of the fence you would have fallen on there

The Official 'Trade Brady' Debate Thread - Do Not Start Another One

This is going here for one reason and one reason only. I understand there are some who want to speculate, even though most of these same people were ready to kick Cassel out in favor of O'Connell in week 3 yet now they feel he should be a good replacement for Brady. There are also some who...

www.patsfans.com

This thread... woof

 

[Steve102]

The Official 'Trade Brady' Debate Thread - Do Not Start Another One

This is going here for one reason and one reason only. I understand there are some who want to speculate, even though most of these same people were ready to kick Cassel out in favor of O'Connell in week 3 yet now they feel he should be a good replacement for Brady. There are also some who...

www.patsfans.com

This thread... woof

53 pages?? holy chit.

 

[203Pat]

The Official 'Trade Brady' Debate Thread - Do Not Start Another One

This is going here for one reason and one reason only. I understand there are some who want to speculate, even though most of these same people were ready to kick Cassel out in favor of O'Connell in week 3 yet now they feel he should be a good replacement for Brady. There are also some who...

www.patsfans.com

This thread... woof

I swear we are collectively the dumbest fanbase in the league.