So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[40yrpatsfan]

Ring said they couldn't afford him. They could - but that would have required having the confidence he could play at least until 45. They didn't, so the contract structure allowed them to move on but put them in a tough spot financially, which is what happens when a big contract comes to an end. Albeit, it wasn't as bad as others we've seen.

Again, I'm glad it worked out and that Jones is here. At the same time, if it hadn't, I think we'd all be pretty frustrated with Newton or Mariota still here and probably having OK seasons while still coming up short wondering when "the next guy" would be here. I'm just glad we're not in that boat.

I think BB deserves credit navigating those choppy waters. It wasn't just Brady's contract but others like Thuney. He grouped them up so we had 1 bad year, resulting in a windfall in a year when nobody else had money, thus all the FA's. Then to combine that with getting Mac Jones as well, which was due to all the good QB's coming out in the year we're picking 15.

The whole thing was no accident, and Belichick isn't getting near the accolades he deserves here.

 

[All3Phases]

I think BB deserves credit navigating those choppy waters. It wasn't just Brady's contract but others like Thuney. He grouped them up so we had 1 bad year, resulting in a windfall in a year when nobody else had money, thus all the FA's. Then to combine that with getting Mac Jones as well, which was due to all the good QB's coming out in the year we're picking 15.

The whole thing was no accident, and Belichick isn't getting near the accolades he deserves here.

They franchised thuney for no reason, they paid him too guard money in a year they admitted was going to be a rebuild. Then lost him in FA

 

[Ian]

I think BB deserves credit navigating those choppy waters. It wasn't just Brady's contract but others like Thuney. He grouped them up so we had 1 bad year, resulting in a windfall in a year when nobody else had money, thus all the FA's. Then to combine that with getting Mac Jones as well, which was due to all the good QB's coming out in the year we're picking 15.

The whole thing was no accident, and Belichick isn't getting near the accolades he deserves here.

LOL, I don't disagree, but there was a little bit of luck there. Imagine going 10-6 with Newton that year instead of 7-9 and not having Mac fall to them at 21-ish and having whoever they did take (because he probably wouldn't have traded up for Jones) go out and perform as bad as most of Mac's peers did. I don't think we'd be as confident as we are right now.

I mean, Belichick didn't coach them to 7-9 knowing he'd land Jones at #15. Where Belichick gets credit from me is putting Jones through the paces last preseason and making the call to completely remove Newton from the equation once it was clear the rookie could handle it. Keeping Newton around and starting the season with him would have been a mistake. Everything that happened during the early part of last year was an experience that's going to make Jones better moving forward, and yes, in that regard, I 100% agree with you that Belichick absolutely deserves credit for making that call.

 

[Ian]

I think BB deserves credit navigating those choppy waters. It wasn't just Brady's contract but others like Thuney. He grouped them up so we had 1 bad year, resulting in a windfall in a year when nobody else had money, thus all the FA's. Then to combine that with getting Mac Jones as well, which was due to all the good QB's coming out in the year we're picking 15.

The whole thing was no accident, and Belichick isn't getting near the accolades he deserves here.

LOL, at the same time, wait for the people who tell us 5-years from now if they do win a championship with Jones that Belichick wasn't the reason and that they only won another title because they landed yet another championship-caliber QB. I'll end up pulling out what's left of the rest of my hair

 

[All3Phases]

LOL, at the same time, wait for the people who tell us 5-years from now if they do win a championship with Jones that Belichick wasn't the reason and that they only won another title because they landed yet another championship-caliber QB. I'll end up pulling out what's left of the rest of my hair

Agree, at that point his credit cannot be denied. But let’s say they don’t win 5 years from now…what is the perception?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Agree, at that point his credit cannot be denied. But let’s say they don’t win 5 years from now…what is the perception?

If Belichick retires without another ring we can safely assume that the dynasty was all Brady. But we're nowhere near BB retiring.

 

[Ian]

Agree, at that point his credit cannot be denied. But let’s say they don’t win 5 years from now…what is the perception?

Tough to say. It all depends, are they getting close but just coming up short? Or does Jones become a mess and now they're back looking for the next guy? I would say that context would obviously be a big part of that perception. Especially if the scenario is the latter and Brady pulls off another Super Bowl next year.

 

[Ian]

If Belichick retires without another ring we can safely assume that the dynasty was all Brady. But we're nowhere near BB retiring.

No, we can't say that. Still have to coach an entire team in all three phases to get to that point. He helped Brady become a winner, and even he acknowledges that. And your support of Brady for this argument is another example of making my head spin...it's brutal.

 

[All3Phases]

If Belichick retires without another ring we can safely assume that the dynasty was all Brady. But we're nowhere near BB retiring.

I don’t think anything was 1 or the other, but I’m interested in seeing if the way they build rosters works without Brady.

 

[All3Phases]

Tough to say. It all depends, are they getting close but just coming up short? Or does Jones become a mess and now they're back looking for the next guy? I would say that context would obviously be a big part of that perception. Especially if the scenario is the latter and Brady pulls off another Super Bowl next year.

I am sure they will be competitive during periods for however long Bill coaches, he’s that good. But it’s definitely a significant drop off from what they were during the dynasty. Obviously everything is, but I’m hoping there’s some semblance of that. I guess that’s be constantly going to the divisional round, occasional CCG or super bowl appearance. The AFC looks very good so it’ll be exciting to watch

 

[40yrpatsfan]

They franchised thuney for no reason, they paid him too guard money in a year they admitted was going to be a rebuild. Then lost him in FA

That was fine, really didn't affect much. It was a 1 year rental hoping maybe they could put a long term deal together, plus keep some stability during a rough patch.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

LOL, I don't disagree, but there was a little bit of luck there. Imagine going 10-6 with Newton that year instead of 7-9 and not having Mac fall to them at 21-ish and having whoever they did take (because he probably wouldn't have traded up for Jones) go out and perform as bad as most of Mac's peers did. I don't think we'd be as confident as we are right now.

I mean, Belichick didn't coach them to 7-9 knowing he'd land Jones at #15. Where Belichick gets credit from me is putting Jones through the paces last preseason and making the call to completely remove Newton from the equation once it was clear the rookie could handle it. Keeping Newton around and starting the season with him would have been a mistake. Everything that happened during the early part of last year was an experience that's going to make Jones better moving forward, and yes, in that regard, I 100% agree with you that Belichick absolutely deserves credit for making that call.

Yeah there was some good fortune but the main acts were not, which were moving on from Brady, creating the cap space, while also knowing there would be an off year in there and a good shopping opportunity. He guided the ship through a nor'easter.

 

[All3Phases]

Yeah there was some good fortune but the main acts were not, which were moving on from Brady, creating the cap space, while also knowing there would be an off year in there and a good shopping opportunity. He guided the ship through a nor'easter.

I think you overrate how not signing Brady helped them financially, Brady’s deal was not expensive, especially comparing to the market rate for great qbs. The money they saved on him in 2020, they spent on thuney and Mccourty. They spent 160$ mil in 2021, Brady’s money in that pile wasn’t holding them back from rebuilding. You’d have to remove a player or 2 out of the 2021 spree and slide Brady in and you wouldn’t notice

 

[Wozzy]

I don't disagree, other than to say they made some bad decisions personnel and contract-wise that left them in a tough spot with not enough talent on offense. The awful deals they made elsewhere hurt $$-wise and then the poor drafting was brutal, along with other bad decisions. I mean, missing on N'Keal Harry, Dalton Keene, Devin Asiasi, and then having the Sanu trade go south, having the Antonio Brown thing go bad, etc. They made a lot of bad decisions.

A lot of decisions made were the result of going all in and regardless of outcome the party was coming to an end either way. If they won a ring in 2019 they still would be facing cap hell.

N’Keal was a miss, but Tom wasn’t staying based off what some rookie WR did in 2019 even if he was successful. Dalton Keene and Devin Asiasi aren’t “misses” yet. Look at every other developmental TE across the league. Players like Cole Kmet who was the first TE taken that draft is just growing into a productive TE. I think the two young TE’s will have a chance to contribute moving forward assuming healthy and them making the team. TE is one of the toughest positions for rookies, anyone who plays fantasy football is keenly aware of this. Now that they have no FB they will likely roster all four TE’s.

Antonio Brown tapped them out money wise and the trade for Sanu was a reaction to Brown setting fire to the WR depth chart. Hey… Tom wanted a vet and the team got him vets, it didn’t workout but it wasn’t for lack of trying. Either way 2020 being a teardown was inevitable. There was no moves to be made that would have cleared the books beyond the teardown and rebuild. Tom wasn’t going to waste his final years rebuilding nor should he be expected to. The bad decisions led to three rings, now we’re nitpicking. There was not a lot of room on a veteran laden super bowl contending roster for developmental players.

It didn't just have to do with money. If they hit on a receiver who could have made a difference instead of Harry and even one of those tight ends who could have been an impact player, things might have been different.

I initially thought maybe Brady's attitude toward young receivers was the reason Harry faltered. Clearly that wasn't the case. I just can't believe how bad they failed to keep that group of players from becoming as bad as it was. I mean, I know Gronk's decision not to come back caught them off guard ... but still. The Keene and Asiasi selections are still just shocking.

Agreed, N’Keal sucked. Tom wasn’t making his 2020 decision based on what a rookie WR did the year prior. He got 50 million from Tampa and played with the best collection of passing weapons in NFL history… the Pats couldn’t match that. Tom never played with Keene and Asiasi, he was gone… Cam played with them and sucked horribly. He missed TE’s in the flat regularly, then the Pats had a massive amount of money to spend and signed the best available free agents. I wouldn’t turn the page already on this two rookie TE’s from 2020… Darren Waller did nothing for three seasons, now he’s one of the best in the league.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

The $$ was part of it - he wanted $25m/yr vs. maybe $3m for a rookie QB, so it was very significant but not the whole story. Who you think he spent the savings on is irrelevant, the money was needed to upgrade the team.

The parallel issues were the increasing risk each year, and the dead-end aspect of it all. It was unchartered territory. Risk vs Age on an x-y chart is not linear once you're in that age range, it starts veering more and more north each year. Not that Brady's performance was likely to drop like a rock if healthy, but the injury risk was real, and there were signs of diminishing commitment as well.

How do you steer a ship where the QB is going to age out soon, potentially very soon? How do you draft and build a team if you don't know the skill set of your future QB?

It was time. BB knew he was lucky to get the performance he did from TB from age 40 on, and 2019 showed that it was time to change this team in a big way. Would have been malpractice to continue on in the same vein, waiting to hit rock bottom. Plus, as wozzy said, Brady didn't want that either and wanted out anyway.

 

[All3Phases]

The $$ was part of it - he wanted $25m/yr vs. maybe $3m for a rookie QB, so it was very significant but not the whole story. Who you think he spent the savings on is irrelevant, the money was needed to upgrade the team.

The parallel issues were the increasing risk each year, and the dead-end aspect of it all. It was unchartered territory. Risk vs Age on an x-y chart is not linear once you're in that age range, it starts veering more and more north each year. Not that Brady's performance was likely to drop like a rock if healthy, but the injury risk was real, and there were signs of diminishing commitment as well.

How do you steer a ship where the QB is going to age out soon, potentially very soon? How do you draft and build a team if you don't know the skill set of your future QB?

It was time. BB knew he was lucky to get the performance he did from TB from age 40 on, and 2019 showed that it was time to change this team in a big way. Would have been malpractice to continue on in the same vein, waiting to hit rock bottom.

I don’t disagree with how their thought process worked; I could also argue that the lack of commitment from Brady was stemming from the lack of commitment from the team. When you said the money was needed to upgrade the team, isn’t necessarily true, which is my point. They gave a large chunk of his money to Thuney. That wasn’t saved. They could’ve upgraded the roster with Brady on the roster.

 

[All3Phases]

That was fine, really didn't affect much. It was a 1 year rental hoping maybe they could put a long term deal together, plus keep some stability during a rough patch.

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[crawhammer]

There's your problem, I found it for you: "10 NFL execs", "most teams", "over a dozen league sources". 10-12-Most does not equal 32. It only takes ONE other team that likes your guy to take him and ruin your board.

No one was taking Strange in the 1st round except for the Patriots so there was no chance of our 1st round board getting "ruined."

Who were the Patriots jumping in front of by moving up to #50 from #54? Have any of these teams been linked to Thornton?... Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis or Kansas City? Philadelphia took a Center. The other three all drafted receivers who were expected by virtually EVERYONE to go ahead of Thornton. The trade made no sense. And losing Thornton would not have constituted "ruining" our draft board... that's assuming we're drafting for football and not a track meet.

The 3 of 9 is a false stat. Throw out the Cleveland years from the pre-cap/pre-FA era when it took years to turn around a bad team, which he eventually did with the Browns before the move to Baltimore.

Never happened. Cleveland finished out the Belichick era by losing 10 of their last 12 games. Belichick left behind a floundering team that had three more losing seasons before they would start to turn things around.

There's are only 3 relevant seasons without Brady, all with NE: 2000 where he took over a team on the way down and turned it around in 1 season to become a SB winner. And 2020-21, after winning 3 of 5 SB's recently and losing Brady, and again he needed only 1 season to break it down and build it back to be a playoff team. He's 1-2 in those 3 seasons, and both were deliberate rebuild years where he's miraculously limited the damage to 1 year apiece.

How many division titles and playoff wins did the Patriots have in those three seasons? 0

They took a guard in round 3, they were hoping Strange fell to that round. They laughed because of how much effort they put into scouting him. They had a wish and a prayer he would be there for them. They has grades on guys they wanted, because they picked in the 3rd round as there first pick doesn't mean they had a 3rd round grade on him. Are you thick or just slow about this? I've seen other people explain it to you already.

They're not "putting in all that effort" for a player they think will go in the 1st round. They're putting in the effort because it made sense to them that he may be available in the 3rd round. Were they scouting Zion Johnson too? How about Aidan Hutchinson and Jameson Williams? No, no and no because none of them were getting anywhere close to #104. There are at least 50 or so players the Rams weren't putting any effort into because they didn't have a pick until the 3rd round when all of them were sure to be gone.

If you watched film on Thornton, you would have seen him consistently dominate his assignment on run blocking and get off press coverage easily. But you haven't, so you're out here spouting ignorance.

I've seen the film. He's spindly. Is 4 receptions for 68 yards per game dominating? Seems like a low standard.

Inconsistent catching. With a three percent drop rate. Yeah, it's garbage. Aren't you the clown who refused to actually watch any tape of the guy?

No. Why would anyone "refuse" to watch film on a player?

Greg Bedard and Ben Volin… that about sums it up.

Because you have better sources than those guys? Sorry to crush your ego but you don't. They weren't giving their opinions either. They were reporting what multiple NFL executives told them. You really don't care who said what because either way you're just going to defend your team. Has Belichick ever done anything wrong in your mind?

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

Why do you keep bringing up these head coaches when talking about Belichick in Cleveland?

Here's what each did with those teams after those losing seasons...

Jimmy Johnson had 3 consecutive winning seasons and went 7-1 in the postseason with 2 Super Bowl titles.
Bill Walsh excluding the strike shortened season had 7 consecutive winning seasons and went 10-4 in the postseason with 3 Super Bowl titles.
Chuck Noll won 4 of the next 8 Super Bowls with an overall 14-4 postseason record in those seasons.
Bill Parcells was 8-3 in postseason with 2 Super Bowl titles.
Tom Landry coached 29 seasons in Dallas with 20 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl titles.

Belichick had 1 winning season in 5 years in Cleveland. He won 1 playoff game. He lost 10 of his last 12 games before getting fired. How does that compare with anything these other head coaches did in their highly successful tenures?

 

[Wozzy]

Back to the draft… I like the Zappe pick. If he was 6’5” he’d have been a 1st round pick.

Pierre Strong is a James White clone with a little less strength but another gear speed wise. Home run hitting speed.

Marcus Jones is an athletic freak, he looks like Tyreek playing CB and returning kicks.

Strange is plug and play.

Thornton is boom or bust, a home run or strikeout… but I never bet against 4.2 speed, vert with good height at WR. A guy that fast could burn you on 2-3 plays a game.

I think they stole another undrafted gem in center Kody Russey. Guy’s a good athlete and probably the strongest man in the draft class. Schooler is also athletic, looks like a solid special teams prospect at least.

Sam Robert’s has potential, it’s hard to judge him with a partial workout but his dominance against smaller competition flashed.

All these guys need to stay healthy, get stronger and become students of the pro game… but they brought a lot of talented potential onto this team. Ten or more good/great prospects.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I don’t disagree with how their thought process worked; I could also argue that the lack of commitment from Brady was stemming from the lack of commitment from the team. When you said the money was needed to upgrade the team, isn’t necessarily true, which is my point. They gave a large chunk of his money to Thuney. That wasn’t saved. They could’ve upgraded the roster with Brady on the roster.

The 2 sides definitely seemed to not be on the same page. The Pats didn't want to give him a long term deal, then he insisted on a deal where he'd be a FA the next year. They tried to get him weapons (Sanu, AB, Harry), but none of them worked out. Then they finished badly in 2019.

If they'd signed Brady and let Thuney walk, then where would that have left them? They just needed to start over with a fresh cap, some FA's, and a QB that wasn't in his final year or two.