So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[Boomer B]

As soon as someone provides an example of a superman QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl and winning it this debate will be worth having… there isn’t one example of it happening.

But we can create a massive list of average QB’s winning a Super Bowl.

Fanboys can’t and won’t even attempt to try to debate this… because it’s where they’re take goes completely off the rails.

You guys are creating your own fantasy argument. No one here that I can see is saying Bill is a crappy coach. He’s an all time great. It took a lot of components for the Pats to win 6 SBs: owner, coaches, players. They all deserve tons of credit. The one who deserves the most credit is Tommy Brady.

 

[crawhammer]

Wow, some real NFL experts you cited there.

Yes, pretty much... there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into creating those comprehensive pre-draft rankings. I can give you many more if you'd like?... there are a ton of pre-draft rankings available for reference... I haven't found one that had Thornton ranked higher than any of the receivers I mentioned except for in a few instances Shakir.

"Because I say so" isn't proof of anything.

Again, I referenced multiple sources already.

Greg Bedard said "... my polling of 10 NFL execs put the reach factor at about 95 percent for Strange and 75 percent on the raw, skinny and inconsistent catching Thornton."

Ben Volin spoke with NFL executives and was told "most teams had Strange anywhere from rounds 2-4 on their boards."

Pro Football Focus polled over a dozen league sources about the biggest surprise of the 1st round and the majority said it was Cole Strange to the Patriots. One AFC scout said "I couldn't believe it." An NFC scout said "I was shocked to see him go that early." Another NFL executive laughed at the pick.

Thornton lost the pre-draft popularity contest, if he becomes a good player it won't matter at all where he was drafted... just like every prospect.

Right, but you're missing the point. They most likely could have taken Thornton much later than #50 and they didn't have to flush another draft pick down the toilet trading up to get a player that no one else wanted picks #50-54.

Malik Willis was supposed to go in the first round, he was on Kiper's "best available players" list scrolling across the screen for three days while the draft was underway... it's a joke. That guy will never be an NFL QB, the "experts" said he was the best QB in the draft. Media experts are like you, when they're wrong there will be zero accountability and they'll move onto the next subject blissfully unaware. Draft experts should get fired if they suck... they won't.

Who was taking Willis in the 1st round? I don't recall that being an actual thing. This QB draft class sucked royally which is another reason why I have no faith in Zappe being worth anything. So Kiper liked Willis?... that makes everything you're saying correct?

I could have named a dozen or more...

But you didn't. The last 30 years there are only 5 quarterbacks to win a Super Bowl who may not get into the HOF. Stafford is the maybe. Flacco isn't a HOFer but he had a HOF postseason in 2012. The 2000 Ravens (Dilfer) and 2002 Bucs (Johnson) had phenomenal defenses... it happens occasionally where a great defense carries a team to a Super Bowl title. The only non-HOF quarterback for sure in the last 30 years who won a Super Bowl without having played exceptionally throughout the postseason or who wasn't carried to a title by their defense was Nick Foles. Ouch.

Either QB's win Super Bowls or they don't, it's odd how I can create a long list of average or just good QB's who won but you can't show us one example of a great QB dragging an average team to a Super Bowl ring.

Eli Manning in 2011... that team was probably below average. Ouch again.

I sort of recall the greatest quarterback of all-time winning multiple Super Bowls with the likes of David Patten, David Givens, Brandon LaFell, Chris Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell, Danny Amendola and Phillip Dorcett. Who were his HOF receivers?... oh that's right, there were none.

 

[All3Phases]

Every time Brady won a Super Bowl ring he had a top 5 defense.

Tommy played zero defensive snaps and made zero tackles, sacks, interceptions.

Who assembled 6 of those Super Bowl winning rosters, who drafted Brady?

Stats aren’t on his side at all.

They sort of are, guess it depends how you like at it. He’s been under .500 without Brady in 9 seasons. They had a top 2 defense last year, and won nothing. I think if we give him a few years we will see a contender but as of today, we are not totally sure if his way of roster building wins without Brady

 

[All3Phases]

And no where did I say Bill sucks or he deserves no credit for the Pats success or for drafting Brady. Of course he does. But if you weigh the importance of the people involved in the Patriots Dynasty I give more credit to Brady then Bill. Being the QB he has the biggest impact on the game. To even bring Trent Diller into the conversation is ludicrous.

I agree with this take as of today, it could certainly change in the future…that’s the best part about sports, the scoreboard tells most of the story

 

[crawhammer]

If Trent Dilfer can do it then it doesn’t require magic QB… that’s just a bad fanboy take.

To take a page out of your book... does Dilfer play LB or CB? The Ravens defense allowed only 5.75 points per game in the postseason. Did you read that? In other words, Dilfer gets about 1% of the credit for that Super Bowl title... and I'm being generous.

Then why has Belichick had 3 winning seasons without Brady?

Are you kidding? Belichick has 19 out of 19 winning seasons with Brady. He has only 3 of 9 winning seasons without him. What more do you need to know? Don't derail the thread with your stupidity.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Yes, pretty much... there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into creating those comprehensive pre-draft rankings. I can give you many more if you'd like?... there are a ton of pre-draft rankings available for reference... I haven't found one that had Thornton ranked higher than any of the receivers I mentioned except for in a few instances Shakir.

Greg Bedard said "... my polling of 10 NFL execs put the reach factor at about 95 percent for Strange and 75 percent on the raw, skinny and inconsistent catching Thornton."

Ben Volin spoke with NFL executives and was told "most teams had Strange anywhere from rounds 2-4 on their boards."

Pro Football Focus polled over a dozen league sources about the biggest surprise of the 1st round and the majority said it was Cole Strange to the Patriots. One AFC scout said "I couldn't believe it." An NFC scout said "I was shocked to see him go that early." Another NFL executive laughed at the pick.

There's your problem, I found it for you: "10 NFL execs", "most teams", "over a dozen league sources". 10-12-Most does not equal 32. It only takes ONE other team that likes your guy to take him and ruin your board.

 

[All3Phases]

Then why has Belichick had 3 winning seasons without Brady? And why have teams won with good to great HCs but average QBs - Simms, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien, Foles, Eli, Flacco, etc.? Heck, even Matt Stafford last year essentially replicated what Brady did in 2020 - won the super bowl his first year on a new team in their home stadium with essentially the same stats.

Your first line isn’ta great argument in this case. 3/9 winning seasons isn’t really comparable to going to 13 CCGs 9 Super Bowls etc. it actually hurts you imo

 

[40yrpatsfan]

They sort of are, guess it depends how you like at it. He’s been under .500 without Brady in 9 seasons. They had a top 2 defense last year, and won nothing. I think if we give him a few years we will see a contender but as of today, we are not totally sure if his way of roster building wins without Brady

The team was toast at the end of Brady's last season here - one and done with the goat. So it wasn't just TB or even mostly TB. We had just won 3 out of the past 5 super bowls, and should have won a 4th, the last of which wasn't due to Brady, either. Loved TB but it takes a lot more than having a great QB.

What a disgrace we had 1 losing season while rebuilding and resetting the salary cap, and now let's question every move and start bringing up the Cleveland Browns from 28 years ago.

 

[All3Phases]

The team was toast at the end of Brady's last season here - one and done with the goat. So it wasn't just TB or even mostly TB. We had just won 3 out of the past 5 super bowls, and should have won a 4th, the last of which wasn't due to Brady, either. Love TB but it's a lot more complicated than having a great QB.

What a disgrace we had 1 losing season while rebuilding and resetting the salary cap, and now let's question every move and start bringing up the Cleveland Browns from 28 years ago.

Not sure anybody called it a disgrace or should we question everything, just pointing out the statistics

 

[Wozzy]

And no where did I say Bill sucks or he deserves no credit for the Pats success or for drafting Brady. Of course he does. But if you weigh the importance of the people involved in the Patriots Dynasty I give more credit to Brady then Bill. Being the QB he has the biggest impact on the game. To even bring Trent Diller into the conversation is ludicrous.

I give the most credit to the guy who drafted and developed Brady, who taught him how to dissect pro defenses.

 

[Wozzy]

Yes, pretty much... there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into creating those comprehensive pre-draft rankings. I can give you many more if you'd like?... there are a ton of pre-draft rankings available for reference... I haven't found one that had Thornton ranked higher than any of the receivers I mentioned except for in a few instances Shakir.


Again, I referenced multiple sources already.

Greg Bedard said "... my polling of 10 NFL execs put the reach factor at about 95 percent for Strange and 75 percent on the raw, skinny and inconsistent catching Thornton."

Ben Volin spoke with NFL executives and was told "most teams had Strange anywhere from rounds 2-4 on their boards."

Greg Bedard and Ben Volin… that about sums it up.

 

[All3Phases]

I give the most credit to the guy who drafted and developed Brady, who taught him how to dissect pro defenses.

If he gets all that credit wouldn’t he be able to do it with most every quarterback under him though?

 

[Boomer B]

who taught him how to dissect pro defenses.

Charlie Weiss?

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

The QB has the biggest impact on the game. Bill is the best coach of the modern era but Brady had a bigger impact being the QB.

Which is why I don’t get the hate of our 4th rounder Zappe. If they believe a)that he is an improvement over our current backups and b)that there’s a chance he wouldn’t be there at our next pick then it makes sense to just take him.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Not sure anybody called it a disgrace or should we question everything, just pointing out the statistics

The 3 of 9 is a false stat. Throw out the Cleveland years from the pre-cap/pre-FA era when it took years to turn around a bad team, which he eventually did with the Browns before the move to Baltimore.

There's are only 3 relevant seasons without Brady, all with NE: 2000 where he took over a team on the way down and turned it around in 1 season to become a SB winner. And 2020-21, after winning 3 of 5 SB's recently and losing Brady, and again he needed only 1 season to break it down and build it back to be a playoff team. He's 1-2 in those 3 seasons, and both were deliberate rebuild years where he's miraculously limited the damage to 1 year apiece.

 

[All3Phases]

The 3 of 9 is a false stat. Throw out the Cleveland years from the pre-cap/pre-FA era when it took years to turn around a bad team, which he eventually did with the Browns before the move to Baltimore.

There's are only 3 relevant seasons without Brady, all with NE: 2000 where he took over a team on the way down and turned it around in 1 season to become a SB winner. And 2020-21, after winning 3 of 5 SB's recently and losing Brady, and again he needed only 1 season to break it down and build it back to be a playoff team. He's 1-2 in those 3 seasons, and both were deliberate rebuild years where he's miraculously limited the damage to 1 year apiece.

So you say it’s false because you don’t want to use it? I’m sure you wouldn’t say the same thing if Brady sucked in TB, or how he went to a 7-9 team so it wouldn’t count. Fair is fair, data is data. Like I said, he has time to spin the narrative for sure, I think he could definitely do it

 

[Boomer B]

The 3 of 9 is a false stat. Throw out the Cleveland years from the pre-cap/pre-FA era when it took years to turn around a bad team, which he eventually did with the Browns before the move to Baltimore.

There's are only 3 relevant seasons without Brady, all with NE: 2000 where he took over a team on the way down and turned it around in 1 season to become a SB winner. And 2020-21, after winning 3 of 5 SB's recently and losing Brady, and again he needed only 1 season to break it down and build it back to be a playoff team. He's 1-2 in those 3 seasons, and both were deliberate rebuild years where he's miraculously limited the damage to 1 year apiece.

Haha. Throw out the Cleveland years. That’s comical. Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc… all seemed to be able to turn bad teams around fairly quickly.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

And no where did I say Bill sucks or he deserves no credit for the Pats success or for drafting Brady. Of course he does. But if you weigh the importance of the people involved in the Patriots Dynasty I give more credit to Brady then Bill. Being the QB he has the biggest impact on the game. To even bring Trent Diller into the conversation is ludicrous.

It’s a team game and no one has more of an impact on the 53 man roster than the HC.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Haha. Throw out the Cleveland years. That’s comical. Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc… all seemed to be able to turn bad teams around fairly quickly.

Under a moron owner? I would say yes, throw those years out.

 

[Boomer B]

It’s a team game and no one has more of an impact on the 53 man roster than the HC.

Laughable. The guy who touches the ball about 50% of the time has way more impact then any coach. Hell, there’s been great QBs winning games with mediocre coaches for ages.