Some Cap Games/"Opportunities"

[ashley]

 

[mgteich]

Here is what I estimate the Patriots can save by changing Salary to Signing bonus and leaving the players with $1M salary
Judon - $6.66M
Henry - $4M
Jonnu Smith - $5.33M
Shaq Mason - $2.75M
Bourne - $1.25M
Andrews - $2M
Wise - $2M
Mills - $2.33M

They could lower the hits of Judon, Bourne, and Henry even more with Extensions.

They could lower the cap hit of Shaq Mason and Jonathan Jones with extensions.

Bailey is an obvious extension freeing up $2.4M. Miguel is predicting this plus the restructuring of Judon and Henry. The total for the three is over $13M, a good bank for re-signing players.

 

[venecol]

Tagging JC is an interesting proposition. I believe if tagged, his entire salary goes against the cap. So, about $18M just for JC alone. It's possible to free up enough cap space w/ restructures & extensions, but that's a big hit. It's definately a position that needs to be reinforced.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I'm not sure if any of them will be cut, but I have been hearing more and more recently that two potential cuts could be Mason(high salary hit) and Wynn...we would need to bring Karras and Brown back if that happens. It would also depend on where we intend to play Onwenu next year...is he a Tackle or Guard.

Probably none get cut, but it was wishful thinking on my end.

I'd be shocked with Mason as his number looks reasonable.

Wynn is not going anywhere because his option was bizarrely picked up last offseason. His $10.4M is guaranteed.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Tagging JC is an interesting proposition. I believe if tagged, his entire salary goes against the cap. So, about $18M just for JC alone. It's possible to free up enough cap space w/ restructures & extensions, but that's a big hit. It's definately a position that needs to be reinforced.

I'd tag and try to trade him for a 1st. It's unrealistic to think he can stay with this team that has so many needs. But letting him walk for nothing would be horrendous.

 

[mgteich]

I'd tag and try to trade him for a 1st. It's unrealistic to think he can stay with this team that has so many needs. But letting him walk for nothing would be horrendous.

what a great idea. Have $17M count against the cap until he signs in July and then hope you can trade him for a first.

 

[mgteich]

Probably none get cut, but it was wishful thinking on my end.

I'd be shocked with Mason as his number looks reasonable.

Wynn is not going anywhere because his option was bizarrely picked up last offseason. His $10.4M is guaranteed.

None would get cut before camp. It would be unreasonable to do so,

 

[TheRainMaker]

what a great idea. Have $17M count against the cap until he signs in July and then hope you can trade him for a first.

Have you not seen a tag and trade before?

 

[venecol]

what a great idea. Have $17M count against the cap until he signs in July and then hope you can trade him for a first.

Summary of franchise tag or tag & trade history (Patriots Franchise Tag History: Will J.C. Jackson Join Bill Belichick's List?):

1. Franchise tagged & went on to sign a contract that year (4): Vinatieri (2002), Wilfork (2010), Mankins (2011), Gostkowski (2015),

2. Franchise tagged & departed following season (4): Vinatieri (2005), Asante (2007), Welker (2012), Thuney (2020).

3. Tag & traded (2): Tebucky Jones (2003) for a 3rd, 7th & following year 4th. Cassel (2009) w/ Vrabel for a 2nd.

2002: FT + contract (K)
2003: T&T (S)
2005: FT & left (K)
2007: FT & left (CB)
2009: T&T (QB)
2010: FT + contract (DT)
2011: FT + contract (OG)
2012: FT & left (WR)
2015: FT + contract (K)
2020: FT & left (OG)

Based on this history anything can happen. My guess, JC doesn't get tagged at all and if he does, he leaves next year.

 

[mgteich]

Summary of franchise tag or tag & trade history (Patriots Franchise Tag History: Will J.C. Jackson Join Bill Belichick's List?):

1. Franchise tagged & went on to sign a contract that year (4): Vinatieri (2002), Wilfork (2010), Mankins (2011), Gostkowski (2015),

2. Franchise tagged & departed following season (4): Vinatieri (2005), Asante (2007), Welker (2012), Thuney (2020).

3. Tag & traded (2): Tebucky Jones (2003) for a 3rd, 7th & following year 4th. Cassel (2009) w/ Vrabel for a 2nd.

2002: FT + contract (K)
2003: T&T (S)
2005: FT & left (K)
2007: FT & left (CB)
2009: T&T (QB)
2010: FT + contract (DT)
2011: FT + contract (OG)
2012: FT & left (WR)
2015: FT + contract (K)
2020: FT & left (OG)

Based on this history anything can happen. My guess, JC doesn't get tagged at all and if he does, he leaves next year.

My point is that Jackson would have no incentive to sign the tag until July. You can't trade someone until the sign the tag. Even he signed and we traded him, we will have lost the use of the $17M of cap money for four months.

 

[Rob0729]

My point is that Jackson would have no incentive to sign the tag until July. You can't trade someone until the sign the tag. Even he signed and we traded him, we will have lost the use of the $17M of cap money for four months.

If Jackson wants to get a long term deal this season and the Pats intend to trade him, he has a massive reason to sign the tag soon. If the Pats intend to trade Jackson, his agent would be stupid not to pressure the Pats to allow him to start trying to negotiate a trade and a contract the second the Pats tag him. When was the last time you heard of a trade of a player and then that player getting a top of the market deal in late spring/early summer. He needs to get traded and signed (assuming the Pats want to tag and trade him) ASAP before teams use all their free agency money elsewhere.

In fact, Jackson, in this situation, would want a deal in place for him to be traded and an agreement to a long term deal before the legal tampering period starts. He can't be traded or signed until the first day of the league year, but he would want the deal to be done before teams could find another CB option in the legal tampering period.

What's going to do? Wait until July and take a well below market deal because no team who wants him will give him what he wants because they spent the majority of their cap money and budget back in March and April. Or wait until July where he cannot get a new deal and has to play on a franchise tag.

If the Pats intend to tag and trade Jackson, he will be traded before the draft or he will be a Patriot at least until the trade deadline and likely until 2023. He isn't traded in July. These types of trades don't happen in July. It isn't in Jackson's best interest to wait until July to be traded and signed to a long term deal.

If he and the Pats are serious about a long term deal, it is also in his best interest to get it done quickly assuming the Pats give him what he wants. What if a stud CB falls to the Pats in the first round in the draft and they draft him. Then Jackson's leverage is shot and the number of teams willing to trade for him and give him a big deal are less than the start of free agency.

The only time a franchised player waits until July to sign their tender is when the player and the team are nowhere close to a deal and the team has no intention of trading him. More often than not in this situation, the player ends up playing under the franchise tender.

 

[ralmat55]

Just a question, but why is the idea of just paying the guy the going market rate for a top-flight CB not an option? We’ve been so brainwashed by Belinomics that the idea of actually paying someone what they’re worth is a totally foreign concept.

 

[venecol]

He can't be traded or signed until the first day of the league year, but he would want the deal to be done before teams could find another CB option in the legal tampering period.

Or wait until July where he cannot get a new deal and has to play on a franchise tag.

If the Pats intend to tag and trade Jackson, he will be traded before the draft or he will be a Patriot at least until the trade deadline and likely until 2023. He isn't traded in July. These types of trades don't happen in July. It isn't in Jackson's best interest to wait until July to be traded and signed to a long term deal.

The only time a franchised player waits until July to sign their tender is when the player and the team are nowhere close to a deal and the team has no intention of trading him. More often than not in this situation, the player ends up playing under the franchise tender.

What if Patriots want to trade him to Detroit for their 1st. Do you think he'll sign? You make it sound like the player has no options. He can't be traded until he signs, so he must agree with the trade before he signs.

He can wait until July, sign and get franchised for $18M. Play one year under the tag with a nice bump in pay in a system he knows and cash in the following year like Thuney did.

 

[venecol]

Not good. I see this going the way of Thuney or Gilmore. If they let him walk, they can get a 3rd rd comp.

 

[Rob0729]

What if Patriots want to trade him to Detroit for their 1st. Do you think he'll sign? You make it sound like the player has no options. He can't be traded until he signs, so he must agree with the trade before he signs.

He can wait until July, sign and get franchised for $18M. Play one year under the tag with a nice bump in pay in a system he knows and cash in the following year like Thuney did.

The Pats can’t trade Jackson for a first rounder unless Jackson wants to be traded to the team. No team is going to give up a first rounder for Jackson especially a high first round pick for an one year rental. Not going to happen.

Just because the Pats may want to tag and trade Jackson doesn’t mean he has no say in where he goes. A long term deal negotiated between Jackson and any potential new team is a requirement of the trade unless the Pats are stupid enough to dump him for less than the 3rd round comp pick they would get if he just left in free agency untagged.

Jackson could play the 2022 season on the franchise tag and blow out his knee or play like garbage and make less on the open market next year. There is a reason why no player likes the franchise tag and it isn’t because they have to wait until July to get their money. There is a big risk playing on the franchise tag.

Sorry, but the reality is that it is Jackson’s best interest to get a long term deal in the next month or so whether it is with the Pats or another team. Otherwise, he risks getting less, possibly much less if he plays for the franchise tender and hurts his market value this upcoming season.

Thuney is not relevant here because the Pats were content to tag him and let him play for the franchise tag. There never seemed to be any interest in the Pats trading him nor getting a long term deal done.

 

[Rob0729]

Not good. I see this going the way of Thuney or Gilmore. If they let him walk, they can get a 3rd rd comp.

I think the Pats want to tag and trade him ala Matt Cassel. I think they feel his trade value is more than what his value is compared to the contract he is likely to sign.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I think the Pats want to tag and trade him ala Matt Cassel. I think they feel his trade value is more than what his value is compared to the contract he is likely to sign.

I sure hope so. They have the rights to one of the best CB's in the league. Getting possibly a measly 3rd round comp pick is unacceptable.

 

[Rob0729]

I sure hope so. They have the rights to one of the best CB's in the league. Getting possibly a measly 3rd round comp pick is unacceptable.

All it takes is one team in need of CB that thinks Jackson is elite to garner a first round pick. An elite CB is only second to a franchise QB on teams’ needs and desires.

 

[TheRainMaker]

All it takes is one team in need of CB that thinks Jackson is elite to garner a first round pick. An elite CB is only second to a franchise QB on teams’ needs and desires.

I see a team that thinks they are close to being in Super Bowl contention make a trade like the Cardinals or Cowboys. Or teams that need a boost to be a playoff team like the Raiders and Chargers. Who knows, maybe even the Bengals see that an upgrade at CB could be the difference.

 

[mgteich]

If Jackson wants to get a long term deal this season and the Pats intend to trade him, he has a massive reason to sign the tag soon. If the Pats intend to trade Jackson, his agent would be stupid not to pressure the Pats to allow him to start trying to negotiate a trade and a contract the second the Pats tag him. When was the last time you heard of a trade of a player and then that player getting a top of the market deal in late spring/early summer. He needs to get traded and signed (assuming the Pats want to tag and trade him) ASAP before teams use all their free agency money elsewhere.

In fact, Jackson, in this situation, would want a deal in place for him to be traded and an agreement to a long term deal before the legal tampering period starts. He can't be traded or signed until the first day of the league year, but he would want the deal to be done before teams could find another CB option in the legal tampering period.

What's going to do? Wait until July and take a well below market deal because no team who wants him will give him what he wants because they spent the majority of their cap money and budget back in March and April. Or wait until July where he cannot get a new deal and has to play on a franchise tag.

If the Pats intend to tag and trade Jackson, he will be traded before the draft or he will be a Patriot at least until the trade deadline and likely until 2023. He isn't traded in July. These types of trades don't happen in July. It isn't in Jackson's best interest to wait until July to be traded and signed to a long term deal.

If he and the Pats are serious about a long term deal, it is also in his best interest to get it done quickly assuming the Pats give him what he wants. What if a stud CB falls to the Pats in the first round in the draft and they draft him. Then Jackson's leverage is shot and the number of teams willing to trade for him and give him a big deal are less than the start of free agency.

The only time a franchised player waits until July to sign their tender is when the player and the team are nowhere close to a deal and the team has no intention of trading him. More often than not in this situation, the player ends up playing under the franchise tender.

My position is that if Jackson is franchised, he will sign in early July, before the deadline. I see no reason for him to do anything else. He would expect to play for the patriots for the 2022 season, although the team could trade him and try to sign or trade for another CB at that late date.