A Frustrating Observation On N'Keal Harry

[Bruins29]

I think we can all agree that getting rid of Harry accomplishes two things: No more Harry on the team and more importantly, no more Harry discussed here (who am I kidding this draft pick will be brought up until the end of time)

 

[DropKickFlutie]

t.

Wynn wasn't a good pick. Love that you're including low picks and UDFA. Because it's a graveyard of high draft pick busts. You're a homer shill.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Gunner in an All Pro caliber return man, you call him “okay.”

Wynn has had issues staying healthy and this year has been mistake prone like the rest of the team, besides his health nobody complained about Wynn’s performance for years prior to this because he was very good.

Joejuan played well early in the season as a replacement when Mills missed a game and as a CB for larger receivers on opposing depth charts. He’s a big guy, they can’t exactly play him in the slot against shrimps. Not sure he has regressed or it’s a case of matchups.

Asiasi is the third TE behind two really good TE’s, he’s young, that’s about it. Wilkerson is a developmental player who got his first opportunity yesterday and played great.

If you look at everything through a negative lens where even good performances are bad then don’t be surprised when objective posters call you a negative nancy. Take your zoloft.

Most of the fans on this board evaluate player acquisition & success from the wrong perspective.

Most view it as black/white/absolute/binary thing which it is not.

It's really relative to draft slot success rate relative to the position, draft capital investment and ROI which determines success.

Look at the 2019 Draft and UFA class /Round/ Starter success rate by round by position

Jake Bailey / 5/ N/A- Outcome: All-Pro

Chase Winovich/3/ 34%- Outcome: reserve

Joejuan Williams/2/46% Outcome: bust

Byron Cowart/5/13% Outcome: reserve

Jarrett Stidham/4/8%: Outcome: reserve

Damien Harris/ 3//16% Outcome: starter

Jakob Johnson/UFA/N/A Outcome: starter

Gunner Olszewski/UFA Outcome: All-Pro PR/ST

Jakobi Meyers/UFA/N/A Outcome: Starter

N'Keal Harry/1/58% Outcome: bust

So in the 2019 draft:
10 rookies in the pool
2 All Pros
3 starters
2 busts
3 picks which are reserves/had injuries in 2020

Harry and JuJuan were busts. Anytime you miss on high draft capital and get horrible ROI it's not a good thing.

The ROI relative to draft capital and % success Bailey, Guns, Meyers, Jakob, Harris were home runs,

Overall this was a good rookie/UFA class

 

[Sicilian]

On your last statement no Team has Sucked more at Drafting WR's than the N. E. Patriots. And they have used good Draft capital too a plethora of Second Round picks. Hopefully they get Mac a guy or two who really threatens the Defense the kid have Brady like tools.

Obviously not comparable on length of time (to be fair, no one regime has the longevity to make apples to apples comparisons with BB, so we work with what we've got), but the 2004-2006 Lions hold the title IMO. They drafted a WR in the top 10 three straight years, and didn't really hit on ANY of them. Charles Rogers (36 career catches, #2 overall pick), Roy Williams (the best of the three with 393 career catches, but still not worth the #7 overall pick), and Mike Williams (127 career catches, 10th overall pick). That is a trio of failure while using top of the draft assets, which makes the Harry pick look trivial in comparison. They finally hit a few years later on Calvin Johnson, but by that point they had NO core for the rest of the team, and 1/4 on top ten pick WR's is a level of suck that BB couldn't muster with a titanium straw.

 

[Fubby]

Have we had the full investigation yet by the media on who was responsible for the Harry pick? I can’t imagine it was just Bill in a vacuum.

maybe that ass clown Wickersham can get on it instead of spending his time drumming up drama.

 

[Kontradiction]

Have we had the full investigation yet by the media on who was responsible for the Harry pick? I can’t imagine it was just Bill in a vacuum.

maybe that ass clown Wickersham can get on it instead of spending his time drumming up drama.

At the end of the day, it’s Bill who makes the picks. But I get the sense that Caserio had a lot of input and was at least partially responsible for all of those meh to terrible drafts from 2013-2020.

 

[Sicilian]

Have we had the full investigation yet by the media on who was responsible for the Harry pick? I can’t imagine it was just Bill in a vacuum.

maybe that ass clown Wickersham can get on it instead of spending his time drumming up drama.

I would argue launching an investigation into who's responsible for a failed draft pick at the end of the first round IS drumming up drama.

 

[mosi]

Most of the fans on this board evaluate player acquisition & success from the wrong perspective.

Most view it as black/white/absolute/binary thing which it is not.

It's really relative to draft slot success rate relative to the position, draft capital investment and ROI which determines success.

Look at the 2019 Draft and UFA class /Round/ Starter success rate by round by position

Jake Bailey / 5/ N/A- Outcome: All-Pro

Chase Winovich/3/ 34%- Outcome: reserve

Joejuan Williams/2/46% Outcome: bust

Byron Cowart/5/13% Outcome: reserve

Jarrett Stidham/4/8%: Outcome: reserve

Damien Harris/ 3//16% Outcome: starter

Jakob Johnson/UFA/N/A Outcome: starter

Gunner Olszewski/UFA Outcome: All-Pro PR/ST

Jakobi Meyers/UFA/N/A Outcome: Starter

N'Keal Harry/1/58% Outcome: bust

So in the 2019 draft:
10 rookies in the pool
2 All Pros
3 starters
2 busts
3 picks which are reserves/had injuries in 2020

Harry and JuJuan were busts. Anytime you miss on high draft capital and get horrible ROI it's not a good thing.

The ROI relative to draft capital and % success Bailey, Guns, Meyers, Jakob, Harris were home runs,

Overall this was a good rookie/UFA class

I understand your logic but not sure about Bailey or Gunner Olszewski being all-Pro. On that list, I would say that Meyers has been productive and Harris has shown some flashes but overall, that draft class for the Patriots has been a bust.

 

[Fubby]

I would argue launching an investigation into who's responsible for a failed draft pick at the end of the first round IS drumming up drama.

I would argue that it’s holding those accountable for things that actually do have an impact on the success of the team.

 

[Sicilian]

I would argue that it’s holding those accountable for things that actually do have an impact on the success of the team.

Given the success rate of pick 32 is somewhere around 50-60% (we'll be generous and say 60), that means there should be about a dozen of these investigations every year then.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I understand your logic but not sure about Bailey or Gunner Olszewski being all-Pro.

Forget the All-Pro distinction.

The context is you have 2 players who are at the top of the league in their respective roles for a 5th rd pick and a UFA. That is serious ROI.

On that list, I would say that Meyers has been productive and Harris has shown some flashes but overall, that draft class for the Patriots has been a bust.

Most rushing touchdowns since Curtis Martin in 1995 and hes shown flashes....

Good lord.

 

[Fubby]

Given the success rate of pick 32 is somewhere around 50-60% (we'll be generous and say 60), that means there should be about a dozen of these investigations every year then.

Where is this % coming from, what is the definition of success rate and who/what is determining if a draft pick was a “success”?

And a number of coaches and GM’s get canned every season. And likely the success of their drafts plays into that decision. So no need for an investigation into anything…they were ultimately held accountable.

 

[mosi]

Forget the All-Pro distinction.

The context is you have 2 players who are at the top of the league in their respective roles for a 5th rd pick and a UFA. That is serious ROI.


Most rushing touchdowns since Curtis Martin in 1995 and hes shown flashes....

Good lord.

A punter and a return guy. One that has a long of 27 yards for a punt return and 37 yards for a kickoff return this year. Superstar!

Are you actually comparing Damien Harris to Curtis Martin? Really? Harris has 1500 yards over three years. Curtis Martin had basically that in his first year.

I like Damien Harris and think he is a solid back but he is no Curtis Martin or even Robert Edwards at this point...

Peoples infatuation with silly stats are a little much...

 

[RobertWeathers]

A punter and a return guy. One that has a long of 27 yards for a punt return and 37 yards for a kickoff return this year. Superstar!

You are not comprehending the point. It's about draft status, pick used and ROI.

Your punter and best PR guy in the league were 5th rounders and UFAs.

Are you actually comparing Damien Harris to Curtis Martin? Really? Harris has 1500 yards over three years. Curtis Martin had basically that in his first year.

I like Damien Harris and think he is a solid back but he is no Curtis Martin or even Robert Edwards at this point...

Peoples infatuation with silly stats are a little much...

Players that score 14TDs in a season are not flashes. Thats ridiculous.

Interesting how you know Harris has 1500 career yds but you cite others as having an infatuation with stats.

re: Robert Edwards- Considering he only lasted 1 year, Harris has blown past Robert Edwards.

 

[Deus Irae]

Have we had the full investigation yet by the media on who was responsible for the Harry pick? I can’t imagine it was just Bill in a vacuum.

maybe that ass clown Wickersham can get on it instead of spending his time drumming up drama.

Report: Bill Belichick Went Against Patriots Scouts To Draft N'Keal Harry

The N’Keal Harry situation is a bad look all around

 

[Wax Frog]

At the end of the day, it’s Bill who makes the picks. But I get the sense that Caserio had a lot of input and was at least partially responsible for all of those meh to terrible drafts from 2013-2020.

 

[Toofy]

Most of the fans on this board evaluate player acquisition & success from the wrong perspective.

Most view it as black/white/absolute/binary thing which it is not.

It's really relative to draft slot success rate relative to the position, draft capital investment and ROI which determines success.

Look at the 2019 Draft and UFA class /Round/ Starter success rate by round by position

Jake Bailey / 5/ N/A- Outcome: All-Pro

Chase Winovich/3/ 34%- Outcome: reserve

Joejuan Williams/2/46% Outcome: bust

Byron Cowart/5/13% Outcome: reserve

Jarrett Stidham/4/8%: Outcome: reserve

Damien Harris/ 3//16% Outcome: starter

Jakob Johnson/UFA/N/A Outcome: starter

Gunner Olszewski/UFA Outcome: All-Pro PR/ST

Jakobi Meyers/UFA/N/A Outcome: Starter

N'Keal Harry/1/58% Outcome: bust

So in the 2019 draft:
10 rookies in the pool
2 All Pros
3 starters
2 busts
3 picks which are reserves/had injuries in 2020

Harry and JuJuan were busts. Anytime you miss on high draft capital and get horrible ROI it's not a good thing.

The ROI relative to draft capital and % success Bailey, Guns, Meyers, Jakob, Harris were home runs,

Overall this was a good rookie/UFA class

I think undrafted is more the luck of the draw because if they really evaluated them well they would have been taken . And I think it's a testament to the training and coaching. So we can say the overall results are good, but if I were to do a appraisal for the drafting team I wouldn't give them good grades.

You can't consistently keep whiffing on 1st and 2nd rounders. We need the playmakers . Harris is great, no doubt .
Nkeal and joejuan just kill it with their uselessness.

As a whole we got lucky due to UDFA.

But why do we miss so much of the first 2 rounders with close to 0 contribution. Wynn is okay but by picking up his 5th contract we need to see how that turns out. If he flops next year then cumulatively we have been screwed by Wynn's pick when you compare performance to the compensation and draft profile.

Last year was the first draft in years where we felt good.

2020 is also shaping to be good. Having all pro on special teams is great, just doesn't give you the same feeling of striking gold like a offensive or defensive player.

 

[Wozzy]

You said are playing well. As in currently. Not years past.

Gunner was an all-pro last year. He has been average this year.

Wynn has been banged up and a penalty machine on top of being a major liability in multiple games this year.

Yes Joejuan played so well early on that the coaching staff decided to slowly decrease his snaps from week 9 until making him a healthy scratch the last two games.

Asiasi has played in one single game this year. 12 snaps, 0 targets. Not sure how that counts as "playing well"

Wilkerson looked good yesterday and the thought was "Why wasn't he playing over Harry earlier?" Seems like a pretty valid question when you watch him catch half as many touchdowns in one game has Harry has in his entire career.

This team has far exceeded most people's expectations and there looks to be some solid young players to build around but to claim that Joejuan and some of these other guys are "playing well" is asinine. At this point you're either trolling or you've reached a previously thought to be unattainable level of homerism.

Gunner is third in the NFL in return average, this on a team that couldn't block consistently. He hasn't changed.

Wynn made mental errors, as a free agent he's only costing himself money. That being said his talent isn't in question, his health certainly is. For that reason I think they should move on like they did with Sony. It doesn't make him a bad player. Nobody notices offensive linemen until they screw up. Early in the season our best offensive linemen were screwing up, that's execution not talent.

JoeJuan will come in handy if they play a team with large WR's, the Pats predominately play three safeties so there's only so many reps for corners to go round. When he played, he played well.

Asiasi plays sparingly, as a third TE behind two of the better TE's in the league I don't know what you expect.

Wilkerson ended preseason by dropping a bunch of passes, he seems to have worked on his hands. The past doesn't change just so 203Pat can make a point on Patsfans.com. Also the team was utilizing Harry's blocking, especially when Jonnu was dinged up. They're not staring at the roster wondering if tinkering with the 4th WR on the roster is going to be a massive change.

Why did you focus on a few players acquired as rookies and ignore the rest? Oh yeah, because players acquired as rookies prior to this year even have contributed to this 2021 turnaround. You jokers say everybody on the Patriots sucks and even our good players are "average" or "okay." Good grief... again, take your antidepressants. This team's in the playoffs.

 

[Wozzy]

Wynn wasn't a good pick. Love that you're including low picks and UDFA. Because it's a graveyard of high draft pick busts. You're a homer shill.

A repeat starter on one of the best units in football is a good player. That he has a troubling injury history is problematic enough to move on in free agency, both he and Sony got a lot of miles put on them at Georgia.

Funny how nobody, beyond injuries, complained about Wynn for the last few years until now... now he's a bad pick. Laughable.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think undrafted is more the luck of the draw because if they really evaluated them well they would have been taken .

Not true. For example Malcolm Butler was evaluated. Mike Wright was eval'd by Patricia. JC Jackson, etc.

And I think it's a testament to the training and coaching. So we can say the overall results are good, but if I were to do a appraisal for the drafting team I wouldn't give them good grades.

What would your grade be on overall player acquisition?

You can't consistently keep whiffing on 1st and 2nd rounders. We need the playmakers . Harris is great, no doubt .
Nkeal and joejuan just kill it with their uselessness.

Agree. Bad misses.

As a whole we got lucky due to UDFA.

Luck that they were available?

But why do we miss so much of the first 2 rounders with close to 0 contribution. Wynn is okay but by picking up his 5th contract we need to see how that turns out. If he flops next year then cumulatively we have been screwed by Wynn's pick when you compare performance to the compensation and draft profile.

Agree.

Last year was the first draft in years where we felt good.

2020 is also shaping to be good. Having all pro on special teams is great, just doesn't give you the same feeling of striking gold like a offensive or defensive player.

Agree