Yes, Asiasi and Keene Are Flops

[captain stone]

No it means they had lots of cash available to spend, you can’t really be this stupid, right??

It actually means that they had to spend lots of cash on the position that they couldn't fix through the draft.

You (& others who feel the same way) can't really be this stupid...right?

 

[captain stone]

2021 saw the CAP drop with the Patriots having the most money and two excellent TE's were on the market a reasonable prices.

The prices paid for Henry & Smith were NOT "reasonable." They were Top of the market prices.

 

[ivanvamp]

1) We used two top draft picks (3rd rounders) to secure our TE's of the future with contracts through 2023.

2) One year later, Belichick uses $25M a year AAV (with $46.25M guaranteed) to sign TE's for the same contract time period (actually, we have an additional year on Smith's contract.

3) How can the conclusion be anything other than Belichick believed that he change his past evaluation and secure two new TE's?

4) Yes, I expect one our two 2020 3rd rounders to make the team as a #3 TE, or TE/FB/HB. They beat out Izzo and will beat out LeCosse. That is a truly awful return on two 3rd rounders.

It's entirely possible that he thinks highly of the potential of Keene and Asiasi, but thinks their ceiling maybe won't match either Smith or Henry. He also had money to burn and two excellent, proven TEs on the market, so he took advantage of the situation to upgrade.

Upgrading somewhere doesn't mean you think the player you're upgrading is bad. It could simply mean that you think other guys are better.

 

[Uptown]

The prices paid for Henry & Smith were NOT "reasonable." They were Top of the market prices.

But the cap/revenue should certainly increase in the coming years, which will make those current contracts look like steals. Especially, if they perform well. BB/front office made those decisions based off value/talent/projection.

 

[captain stone]

Whose rankings should we listen to in determining the best player available... Mel Kiper, Colon Cowturd, CBS?

Wozzy had Keene ranked higher than Trautman. Adam Trautman had Drew Brees, Harrison Bryant had Baker Mayfield... the Pats rookies had Cam.

Trautman & Bryant also had NFL-calibre talent ahead of them on their teams' depth charts, so there were actual reasons for their limited numbers.

And if you really ranked Keane ahead of Trautman, then I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[Deus Irae]

How about this...

Tight End is regarded by most experts as the most difficult position to contribute in on offense as a rookie.

The Patriots typically ask more of their Tight Ends than most other teams

They were rookies in a year where there was no training camp or preseason and had to learn the playbook on zoom.

They had a QB who was also new to the team and struggled with health and the system and couldn't throw accurate passes with any kind of consistency.

Added to that, they both missed significant time with injuries, Keene to his neck and Asiasi to his hamstring.

In Keene's case he was also tasked with FB duties, which added to his workload when it comes to studying the playbook.

If you actually watch the All-22, towards the end of the season Asiasi was open consistently when on the field but was never targeted.

Maybe they won't amount to anything, maybe they will both become starters in due course. I always try to be respectful to other people's opinions on here but to just write them off as flops after year one, with absolutely no context, is just an idiotic hot take in my opinion.

You seem to have confused offering context with strapping on the armor and white knighting. And, I mean, white knighting to a shameless degree. Holy cow.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

But the cap/revenue should certainly increase in the coming years, which will make those current contracts look like steals. Especially, if they perform well. BB/front office made those decisions based off value/talent/projection.

Same exact reasoning as every Jets, Washington Football Team, Dolphins fan when they made free agency splashes. Basically, no one has ever made a bad signing - at the time - when this argument is brought up....but the argument does not hold water.

 

[Deus Irae]

For some historical context, I looked at the top receiving tight ends last year. There are a LOT of examples of guys who had pretty bad rookie years, but last year were very solid to excellent tight ends (at least the receiving half of the equation anyway). Disclaimer: This is NOT a prediction of who Keene or Asiasi will become, because as we all know there are tons of examples that go the other way too. But just for some context.

Darren Waller - First three years he played a total of 14 games and 16 catches. Last two years? 197 catches for over 2300 yards.

Logan Thomas - First four seasons he bounced around (injury year too I believe) before breaking out with Washington last year for 72 and 670.

Jared Cook - Rookie year he played 14 games and had 15 targets for 9 catches, 74 yards, 0 TDs. He then became a guy that people are pissed we didn't sign to replace Gronk.

Darren Schultz - 17 targets for 12 catches his rookie year. The next year he played all 16 games and had ONE catch. His third year in 2020? 63 catches, 600+ yards.

Robert Tonyan - 14 catches combined between his first two seasons in 27 games. Last year 52 for 586 and 11 TD's.

Tyler Higbee - 11 catches his rookie year, and then didn't break 300 yards receiving either of the next two. The two after that he's averaged 600 yards per season.

There are guys who jump in right away and get it. There are guys who don't and never will. But there are also enough examples of guys that look pretty useless early in their career, then either something clicks for them or they find themselves with the right combination of QB, coach, scheme, supporting cast, or some luck, and become productive players. Pointing out that one weird rookie season doesn't damn a player to mediocrity for eternity is a take that shouldn't be controversial.

Have some fun. Take a look at the rookie years of the TEs drafted by BB in New England. Find out how many of them had the low numbers of this pair and still went on to be more than a footnote. And don't use Watson, since he only played one game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But the cap/revenue should certainly increase in the coming years, which will make those current contracts look like steals. Especially, if they perform well. BB/front office made those decisions based off value/talent/projection.

They were close to top of the market deals.

Smith is #3 and Henry is #7 in total contract value. They are up there after Kittle in guaranteed money.

Captain likes to take shots at every single BB draft pick and FA acquisition. Thats his shtick.

 

[Deus Irae]

. . It still baffles me that our New England Patriots has become the model for being patient with players and their development. Taking other teams scrap players and polishing them up to be consistent high level contributors ...

Yet we still want label 1st year rookie TEs as busts when they barely had a chance to play year 1??

You know what should baffle you? It should baffle you that Belichick ever cuts a young player from his 90 man roster. After all, the team is all about being patient and developing players, right?

 

[Username]

You seem to have confused offering context with strapping on the armor and white knighting. And, I mean, white knighting to a shameless degree. Holy cow.

Ok edgelord

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok edgelord

You could just have offered your defense, instead of pretending you were really looking for context when you weren't.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

I think it's too early to tell on the youn TEs. Cam sucks at throwing the football and is the worst starting qb in the league.

That's a valid opinion.....just choose one story and stick to it.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Just like the disasters of David Thomas and Garrett Mills picks in 2006 and Chad Jackson. So similar to busting on Asiasi and Keene and also NKeal Harry. Almost deja vu on certain eyes whiffing over talent evaluation. The free agent signings hopefully salvaged some of the offense. Otherwise we just need a totally new coordinator to turn things around. It's been 2 years of ineptitude on offense.

Lumping those three players isn't really fair.

In particular, Thomas was a decent player (he had 35 catches in 2009, the year he was traded to the Saints); what made his pick a headscratcher was the question of how he was going to get PT when they already had Graham and Watson.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

The prices paid for Henry & Smith were NOT "reasonable." They were Top of the market prices.

I looked at the numbers....they are fine.

Since you can't even count, your opinion is below worthless.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Thankfully, Belichick is in charge and no you. He understands that you need to have 4 deep when you are running 2 TE sets and you don't want to have to rely on an extra O-linemen that actually takes away from your ability to hide what you are doing. Belichick understood that the Patriots were in a UNIQUE position that they'd never been in previously. Going into this off-season, there was higher end talent, at a position of need, and the Patriots had the CAP SPACE available to be able to improve themselves at that position. This does 2 things. It takes pressure off of last year's rookies to be the starting TEs on day 1 of TC. It give the Patriots 2 very good role models for said 2nd year players to develop behind and push those veterans to be better. In fact, it also gives the Pats protection to be able to cut Henry after the 2022 season if he's not working out and still have players competent in the offense instead of having just 1 TE..

I hope he understands that now, but I'm not sure he did in 2011. . . .

 

[patsfanincleveland]

The were close to top of the market deals.

Smith is #3 and Henry is #7 in total contract value. They are up there after Kittle in guaranteed money.

Captain likes to take shots at every single BB draft pick and FA acquisition. Thats his shtick.

Isn't that Belichick dude the guy who's ultimate dream is a 2 TE based offense?

Ya know, the offense that's only weakness is one of the TE's getting hurt because there is currently no NFL defense structured to stop it?

How exactly does one not grasp value is relative so if you value TE's more..........allocation of resources does follow.

Naturally, they are also whining that Newton can't throw and the Patriots don't have a $25M "#1 WR".

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Lumping those three players isn't really fair.

In particular, Thomas was a decent player (he had 35 catches in 2009, the year he was traded to the Saints); what made his pick a headscratcher was the question of how he was going to get PT when they already had Graham and Watson.

Fair enough but it's a stretch to take credit for what a guy did 3-4 years later and with different coaches developing him. The analogy was apt in busting on 2 TEs and 1 WR in 2006 then doing the same thing about 12-13 years later with the same head of offense.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Just like the disasters of David Thomas and Garrett Mills picks in 2006 and Chad Jackson. So similar to busting on Asiasi and Keene and also NKeal Harry. Almost deja vu on certain eyes whiffing over talent evaluation. The free agent signings hopefully salvaged some of the offense. Otherwise we just need a totally new coordinator to turn things around. It's been 2 years of ineptitude on offense.

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For the old timers

Does anyone remember NEM (if I remember correctly) on here?

The dude was a complete psycho who babbled like this one in thread after thread until finally he was correctly disposed. I believe at the time be a visceral hatred for Charlie W.

We may very well have NEM's off-sperm in our threads.

Dude, you might want to calm it down. It's not pretty what became of your donor.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

For the old timers

Does anyone remember NEM (if I remember correctly) on here?

The dude was a complete psycho who babbled like this one in thread after thread until finally he was correctly disposed. I believe at the time be a visceral hatred for Charlie W.

We may very well have NEM's off-sperm in our threads.

Dude, you might want to calm it down. It's not pretty what became of your donor.

I've held back but you're a total psycho on this forum. Let's see, how many fights have you picked here? You're an acerbic troll but goes crazy when someone disagrees with you. And just to rile you up since you're so easily riled, Cleveland is a wasteland and hope you have working heat this coming winter.

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