Yes, Asiasi and Keene Are Flops

[mgteich]

I think we need to stop using that excuse of 2020, other teams had the same issues. Every team had rookies, no teams had much of an offseason.

and all teams had 8 players leave because opt-outs, or did they?

 

[Tony2046]

Flop is harsh. It's been noted on numerous occasions that tight end is a difficult position for a rookie to come in and contribute right away. Both players had injuries following no offseason programs, limited training camp, and no preseason. They then came into an offense that was run first, run second, and run third if it could be justified, and had a QB who really only clicked with two receivers.

The acquisition of Henry and Smith certainly doesn't say they're confident in them making a leap to pro-bowlers in year 2, but we know three things: 1) Belichick had an unusually high amount of money to work with this offseason. 2) He seems to really like 2 tight end sets if he can get the horses to run it. 3) He's had very positive things to say about both vets prior to this offseason. He had the opportunity and means to add two great players to a position grouping he wants to feature. There's a better than average chance that he signs one or both of them, even if the rookies had shown something more than they had.

Does this mean they're guaranteed to improve? Definitely not. Does this mean both make the roster this year? Again, no. But when you want to run two-TE sets, you need more than two tight ends that you feel confident in, and the trade of Izzo has left basically Keene and Asiasi as the only two competing for the depth spot at what has become a critical position for the offense (unless others are seeing more in LaCosse than I am). Looking at all the circumstances from last year and writing them off as flops is premature, IMO.

I agree and I think you're one of the forum's best posters. Always clear headed and straight to the point.

 

[DaBruinz]

This is nonsense.

I think that we will win 10 or 11 games BECAUSE Belichick signed TE's0, rather than expecting his draftees to develop, which might easily have been the case. and BECAUSE Belichick recognized and recognize the need in the defensive front seven.

He understood that he had developing draftees like Cowart, Winovich, Bentley, Uche and Jennings. Did Belichick rely on the development of these draftees. No, he spent lots and lots of assets on the front seven.
==========
Belichick could have taken a wait and see position regarding TE's and the front seven. Many support the draft choices over the past 4 years, and think that these players would develop enough to make us successful. THANKFULLY, belichick recognized that lots and lots of help at this positions.

No. It's not nonsense. But that is typical of you. Your OP was the nonsense. And your response is nonsense.

Gotta love how you can't be bothered to properly rebut what was said (a complete change of the base offense from 3WR set to a 2TE set) and then you start rambling on about the Front 7.

Regarding the Front 7, Claiming that Bentley is a "developing draftee" is laughable. The guy is in his 4th year and he digressed from his 2019 season. He'll be lucky to make the team. He went from 3 Missed tackles in 2019 to 9 in 2020. There is also no guarantee that Hightower makes it through an entire season without getting injured. Gone from last year's "Front 7" are John Simon, Shilique Calhoun, Brandon Copeland, and Adam Butler. So, of course he had to spend on assets. But that situation is different than the TE situation to which your OP referred.

You're attempting to compare apples to oranges and it's pretty laughable.

Thankfully, Belichick is in charge and no you. He understands that you need to have 4 deep when you are running 2 TE sets and you don't want to have to rely on an extra O-linemen that actually takes away from your ability to hide what you are doing. Belichick understood that the Patriots were in a UNIQUE position that they'd never been in previously. Going into this off-season, there was higher end talent, at a position of need, and the Patriots had the CAP SPACE available to be able to improve themselves at that position. This does 2 things. It takes pressure off of last year's rookies to be the starting TEs on day 1 of TC. It give the Patriots 2 very good role models for said 2nd year players to develop behind and push those veterans to be better. In fact, it also gives the Pats protection to be able to cut Henry after the 2022 season if he's not working out and still have players competent in the offense instead of having just 1 TE..

 

[Username]

I hate edgy hot takes.

How about some context?

 

[Hyped]

I think we need to stop using that excuse of 2020, other teams had the same issues. Every team had rookies, no teams had much of an offseason.

It wasn't in comparison to other TE's on other teams. It was to demonstrate that 2020 gave the kid no chance whatsoever.

Devin AsiAsi: 9 games, 3 starts, 7 targets, 2 receptions, 39 yards, and 1 TD.

Yeah....7 targets man...let's give the kid a chance before we write him off completely.

 

[Deus Irae]

I hate edgy hot takes.

How about some context?

2 players
15 games
12 targets
5 catches
55 total yards


That's worse, even in combination, than Izzo's rookie season. And it's possible that I'm forgetting there being multiple threads with the honks fighting tooth and nail for Izzo's honor after his rookie season, but I don't recall any, and I can't find any using the site's search engine. And, even if there were such threads, we've since seen that those first year evaluations were accurate, and were not all "just speculation".

 

[Username]

2 players
15 games
12 targets
5 catches
55 total yards


That's worse, even in combination, than Izzo's rookie season. And it's possible that I'm forgetting there being multiple threads with the honks fighting tooth and nail for Izzo's honor after his rookie season, but I don't recall any, and I can't find any using the site's search engine. And, even if there were such threads, we've since seen that those first year evaluations were accurate, and were not all "just speculation".

How about this...

Tight End is regarded by most experts as the most difficult position to contribute in on offense as a rookie.

The Patriots typically ask more of their Tight Ends than most other teams

They were rookies in a year where there was no training camp or preseason and had to learn the playbook on zoom.

They had a QB who was also new to the team and struggled with health and the system and couldn't throw accurate passes with any kind of consistency.

Added to that, they both missed significant time with injuries, Keene to his neck and Asiasi to his hamstring.

In Keene's case he was also tasked with FB duties, which added to his workload when it comes to studying the playbook.

If you actually watch the All-22, towards the end of the season Asiasi was open consistently when on the field but was never targeted.

Maybe they won't amount to anything, maybe they will both become starters in due course. I always try to be respectful to other people's opinions on here but to just write them off as flops after year one, with absolutely no context, is just an idiotic hot take in my opinion.

 

[moosekill]

mistakes in the draft mean cash on the barrel head in free agency!

record amount of cash spent this year means a lot of mistakes in past drafts.

No it means they had lots of cash available to spend, you can’t really be this stupid, right??

 

[Clonamery]

I'm gonna hawt take with this board's mental capacity has dropped significantly since Brady left.

 

[DarrylS]

It seems to be an extraordinarily long off season, not even any news from the Pats Rookie Mini Camp...

Idle minds wander and dream up all sorts of conspiracies..

 

[PowerRunRevival]

For what it’s worth I expect Keane and Asiasi to make the team (barring injury). If the Pats are going to run two tight end sets for the majority of the game (like I expect them to) then you probably will see an increase in their playing time from last year.

I think calling anyone a bust after one season, especially the COVID season needs to show more patience.

Belichick almost always goes for best player available when adding talent. Spending big on TE in free agency doesn’t mean that he’s giving up on the second year TE. It simply means that Bill saw talent on the market that he likes at price he was comfortable with so he added Henry and Smith.

People seem to be assuming Belichick makes roster moves based on position. When his past roster moves indicate that he’s always looking to add the best player available regardless of position.

 

[Triumph]

Flop is harsh.

Agree

"Bust" has a nicer ring to it. Loos like the same guy drafting Pats WRs got the new job of drafting TEs.

 

[scott99]

Asiasi can be TE3 and Keene can be HBack.

BB saw an opportunity to upgrade the position. That simple.

I think Asiasi is pretty much a lock for TE3. I think he definitely has some talent and a future. Unfortunately, both Henry AND Smith have had injury histories, I doubt either will stay completely healthy during the duration of their contracts. I hope they do, but we’ll see. Keene is the biggest long shot to make the team. He also is talented, and I think he can play in this league, I think wherever he winds up, it’ll be as a traditional TE, not an Hback.

 

[Sicilian]

For some historical context, I looked at the top receiving tight ends last year. There are a LOT of examples of guys who had pretty bad rookie years, but last year were very solid to excellent tight ends (at least the receiving half of the equation anyway). Disclaimer: This is NOT a prediction of who Keene or Asiasi will become, because as we all know there are tons of examples that go the other way too. But just for some context.

Darren Waller - First three years he played a total of 14 games and 16 catches. Last two years? 197 catches for over 2300 yards.

Logan Thomas - First four seasons he bounced around (injury year too I believe) before breaking out with Washington last year for 72 and 670.

Jared Cook - Rookie year he played 14 games and had 15 targets for 9 catches, 74 yards, 0 TDs. He then became a guy that people are pissed we didn't sign to replace Gronk.

Darren Schultz - 17 targets for 12 catches his rookie year. The next year he played all 16 games and had ONE catch. His third year in 2020? 63 catches, 600+ yards.

Robert Tonyan - 14 catches combined between his first two seasons in 27 games. Last year 52 for 586 and 11 TD's.

Tyler Higbee - 11 catches his rookie year, and then didn't break 300 yards receiving either of the next two. The two after that he's averaged 600 yards per season.

There are guys who jump in right away and get it. There are guys who don't and never will. But there are also enough examples of guys that look pretty useless early in their career, then either something clicks for them or they find themselves with the right combination of QB, coach, scheme, supporting cast, or some luck, and become productive players. Pointing out that one weird rookie season doesn't damn a player to mediocrity for eternity is a take that shouldn't be controversial.

 

[Uptown]

-Rookie/Notoriously difficult position
-7 targets
-Cam “throwing” ???
-No debate...let’s wait.

 

[Wozzy]

???
I've said that belichick had a great off-season and a great draft, and you think that this is a "woe i me" post?

Your comment about Asiasi and Keene being flops is typical "we have no talent" bellyaching that also went on early in the 2014, 2016 and 2018 seasons... it's gone on almost the entirety of New England sports existence... depressed, repressed all the other teams have all the best players. I've literally seen people call players on other teams good, only to reverse course when said player becomes a Patriot.

They had Cam Newton playing QB for 550K in a salary cap reset year while the black plague spread across the globe... I'm sorry the children didn't thrive like every other rookie TE did.

Drafted Rec Yds TD
Cole Kmet 28 243 2
Devin Asiasi 2 39 1
Josiah Deguara 1 12 0
Dalton Keene 3 16 0
Adam Trautman 15 171 1
Harrison Bryant 24 238 3
Al Okwuegbunam 11 121 1
Colby Parkinson 2 16 0
Brycen Hopkins 0 0 0
Charlie Woerner 3 36 0
Tyler Davis 0 0 0
Stephen Sullivan 0 0 0

Explosive stuff ^

 

[Wozzy]

Mike Vrabel didn't start a single game his first four year's in the NFL, he played special teams or off the bench... but these kids are "busts."

And anyone who doesn't agree is a BB honk, apologist or some other crap... you know, the guy who took Vrabel off the Steelers hands, made him a starter, three time Super Bowl winner, Pro Bowler and All Pro.

 

[TheRazorsEdge]

. . . It still baffles me that our New England Patriots has become the model for being patient with players and their development. Taking other teams scrap players and polishing them up to be consistent high level contributors ...

Yet we still want label 1st year rookie TEs as busts when they barely had a chance to play year 1??

Also because of the things Smith can do..I wouldn't be shocked to see some sets with 3 TEs out there. Where Asiasi might be going against the teams 3rd or 4tu best Linebacker.

Also.... Hunter Henry injury insurance. If he were to get injured and our offense is humming with the 2 TE sets..it would be nice to have a TE who understands the offense to slide in.

Most fan bases would be happy to have a TE room consisting of 2 household names and TE3 as a developmental 3rd pick with upside.

But that's just me.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

1) We used two top draft picks (3rd rounders) to secure our TE's of the future with contracts through 2023.

2) One year later, Belichick uses $25M a year AAV (with $46.25M guaranteed) to sign TE's for the same contract time period (actually, we have an additional year on Smith's contract.

3) How can the conclusion be anything other than Belichick believed that he change his past evaluation and secure two new TE's?

4) Yes, I expect one our two 2020 3rd rounders to make the team as a #3 TE, or TE/FB/HB. They beat out Izzo and will beat out LeCosse. That is a truly awful return on two 3rd rounders.

Is #3 a stupid question?

It's simple.

2021 saw the CAP drop with the Patriots having the most money and two excellent TE's were on the market a reasonable prices.

Is Belichick suppose to not upgrade the offensive roster immediately for the 2021 season simply because idiots on patsfans.com are running around in mid-May looking to proclaim third round picks busts?

 

[Sicilian]

I agree and I think you're one of the forum's best posters. Always clear headed and straight to the point.

That's very kind of you. I certainly have plenty of irrational days as well.