If Cam is returning, we need a better QB room around him.

[venecol]

A) you have consistently referenced past years of free agency and said they won’t spend on top players this year
B) last year they had no cap space. It is not at all relevant to what they will do with cap space.

You are saying the equivalent of the poor college student who eats spaghetti and butter for dinner will still eat spaghetti and butter when he is making $300,000 a year.

Oh, yea I did say that Belichick's history of looking for "value" (being cheap) is probably what he does again. I'll stand by that.

 

[Ivan]

Guy threw INT’s every time he’s gotten into the game.

I’ve yet to see one positive play out of him even in the limited action he’s played.

Pretty sure he came in and threw a TD to Gunner late in the season. There are a few reasons to get rid of Stidham but he has played so little that it’s hard to evaluate him on his play.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh, yea I did say that Belichick's history of looking for "value" (being cheap) is probably what he does again. I'll stand by that.

You say that like it’s a negative thing.
why would you not want him to base signings on value?
Why would you consider that cheap?

Spending everything allotted by the cap isn’t cheap.
For example:
With 50 million in cap space 2 very divergent extreme plans would be

A) One guy at 20 mill
One at 15 mill
15 others at 1 mill each

B) 17 guys at 3 mill a piece.

B isn’t cheap, B values the full roster more than a few players. B spends just as much money as A.

In reality what has happened is belichick had always retained the top end guys on his roster so those “cap slots” are taken.
This year he does not have those cap slots filled. So it’s an entirely different scenario.

Look at it from this perspective.
Assign cap $$ to slots 1-53. You have to fill the ones that are empty. In past years because the higher slot were filled there was not cap money and the slots available were mid to low range.

The difference between those years and this year is that now those top slots aren’t filled. Belichick model has always had them filled but largely internally. This year they need to be filled externally.
Your argument is that contrary to the last 20 years you think that belichick doesn’t want good players at the top of cap chart. That is firmly disproven by history. You are being shortsighted by looking at free agent signing without looking at the whole team.

 

[Bill Lee]

BB can be accused of many things, but accounting for a player's feelings isn't one of them.

The NEP are doing what they always do this time of year. They are fortifying their roster with backups and pseudo-starters.

The real action is FA and during the draft.

This is BB doing the BB thang.

They may draft a QB in the first round. They may trade for Jimmy. They made draft one in Rd2. Who knows.....

Based on the $ and structure of his deal, it's painfully obvious this is a backup contract.

And the second after the draft ends, with UDFA signings.

The man is at heart a 'value shopper' or if you prefer a 'bottom feeder'.

He saves his powder for the time where he's one or two players away from being a strong contender.

Unfortunately right now our overall talent level isn't good enough to be in that category.

I think the biggest move we'll see is perhaps a trade up on draft day, but of course a trade down is more likely.

I hope this forum has lots of Preparation H ready for draft day, there will be a lot of butthurt so it will come in handy.

 

[Ross12]

IMO - this is all just my feeling - Cam is a popular QB who speaks highly of the culture/program in NE and will help with signing the offensive pieces they want (Samuel, etc). They still want Garoppolo if he can be had and know they will have to wait a bit. If NE makes a play later, Cam will become an insurance policy against Jimmy injuries but will also see the field in certain packages and/or games Jimmy sits due to injury.

Cam may have a better shot at a bigger contract next year if he looks decent in limited duty, vs. another year starting where his weaknesses continue to show.

The downside to that approach is you're committing almost $30M in cap space to QBs so don't have a lot of space to work with for other pieces. They may have to work something out with Jimmy at that point, contractually. They'll have some leverage since, considering the cap situation this year, most teams will have already spent what little cap space they had, so there won't be many mathematically possible suitors.

I think if they get to draft day and SF hasn't made a move for a QB, they grab a guy like Lance and forgo a move for Jimmy entirely, at least this year.

 

[Kontradiction]

No not at all. “Basically” I assess the job Belichick has done and I am happy with it. That doesn’t mean his next move or series of moves will be good or that everything he has ever done was right.
But the only result I care about is winning. If you win you did well no matter how you did it and I see no value in parsing which decisions are good or bad, every nfl decision maker makes many of each.
It’s a job that has a scoreboard. I see no value in trying to outargue the scoreboard.

He won because of his performance as a HC and because he had the GOAT QB for two decades. He won in spite of his, at times, mediocre at best job as a GM. As a matter of fact, one could make a very solid argument that he would have won AT LEAST one more had it not been for his shortfalls as a GM. As soon as he lost one of those components (again, thanks a miscue as a general manager), his work as a GM caught up to him and he missed the playoffs for the first time in 12 seasons and only the second time since Y2K. BB is the GOAT HC. BB is very far from the GOAT GM. Don’t believe that? As an exercise, think of the needs we have. The greatest ones that must be filled immediately. Then consider why we have those needs. Have we not dedicated any resources to filling those needs over the last half decade or so?

 

[Tony2046]

IMO - this is all just my feeling - Cam is a popular QB who speaks highly of the culture/program in NE and will help with signing the offensive pieces they want (Samuel, etc). They still want Garoppolo if he can be had and know they will have to wait a bit. If NE makes a play later, Cam will become an insurance policy against Jimmy injuries but will also see the field in certain packages and/or games Jimmy sits due to injury.

Cam may have a better shot at a bigger contract next year if he looks decent in limited duty, vs. another year starting where his weaknesses continue to show.

The downside to that approach is you're committing almost $30M in cap space to QBs so don't have a lot of space to work with for other pieces. They may have to work something out with Jimmy at that point, contractually. They'll have some leverage since, considering the cap situation this year, most teams will have already spent what little cap space they had, so there won't be many mathematically possible suitors.

I think if they get to draft day and SF hasn't made a move for a QB, they grab a guy like Lance and forgo a move for Jimmy entirely, at least this year.

I don't think that would be spending their resources wisely.

If there's a rush on offensive players in the draft and it looks like there could be, (QBs, WRs, TEs and OTs) you could get a top rated defensive player at a great value. Use the draft and the cap to build up the rest of the team. Grab a 2/3 round pick on a QB.

In short I personally wouldn't want a JG type. I'd rather have a QB on a rookie contract and Cam than an expensive JAG.

Of course that approach needs patience.

I expect this rebuild to take another year or two but I also expect that both the offense and defense will be better than last season.

They'll find a QB but they shouldn't outbid everyone else during a seemingly QB frenzied draft to get one save for a Trevor Lawrence type. Imo.

 

[Ring 6]

He won because of his performance as a HC and because he had the GOAT QB for two decades. He won in spite of his, at times, mediocre at best job as a GM. As soon as he lost one of those components (again, thanks a miscue as a general manager), his work as a GM caught up to him and he missed the playoffs for the first time in 12 seasons and only the second time since Y2K. BB is the GOAT HC. BB is very far from the GOAT GM. Don’t believe that, as an exercise think of the needs we have. The greatest ones that must be filled immediately. Then consider why we have those needs. Have we not dedicated any resources to filling those needs over the last half decade or so?

No. He won because of all of those things.
Trying to parse out which pieces of what were why they won is silly.
As a GM he won 6 SBs.
what matters is results.

 

[sb1]

No. He won because of all of those things.
Trying to parse out which pieces of what were why they won is silly.
As a GM he won 6 SBs.
what matters is results.

Wins are a team stat. Not a coach or GM stat.

I think we saw last year what happens when Bill has a subpar QB and team to work with.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Other ways to complete the sentence,
If Cam Newton is Returning...

... all belts and shoelaces will be confiscated at Gillette.
... punts, I'm okay with that.
... tell him to return from 2015 not 2020.
...Hell's coming with her.
...this sentence is the only thing that will be completed in 2021.

 

[Ring 6]

Wins are a team stat. Not a coach or GM stat.

I think we saw last year what happens when Bill has a subpar QB and team to work with.

Wins are a combination of everything. It’s silly to try to give it take credit from any piece.
I am perfectly fine that the consequence of staying on top was a losing 2020.
By all means please show me the model that won as much and never had a losing season and we can discuss all the GMs who did a better job than belichick.

 

[imahobgoblin]

I think it’s pretty clear that they’re planning to target Lance if a trade up to the top 7 is feasible. He’s a less turnover-prone version of Cam coming out of the college level and BB, for better or worse, has fallen in love with that kind of QB. It’s either him or Wilson, who will probably be gone within the top 3 (if not the top two). I’m assuming Cam would be the bridge and mentor to him. Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense to me to keep Cam and draft a guy like Jones. They’re night and day differences from one another in terms of style of play.

Or perhaps Kellen Mond in the second.

 

[imahobgoblin]

The free agency period has not started.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Kontradiction]

No. He won because of all of those things.
Trying to parse out which pieces of what were why they won is silly.
As a GM he won 6 SBs.
what matters is results.

What are our needs? Why do we have these needs? What resources have we dedicated to filling those needs? Any GM that’s done a good job in recent years of stocking the team with young talent doesn’t look at a near total rebuild one year after he loses the key centerpiece. Any GM that’s done a good job in recent years doesn’t allow that QB to get to UFA when he still clearly has excellent football left in him.

I would argue he isn’t even a top 10 GM all time. His excellence as a coach and having a QB taking less than top money while being able to make everyone around him better (your words when analyzing talent at the skill positions in years past) won those Super Bowls. His work as a GM cost him at least one (2019) and is point blank the primary reason why the dynasty ended early here while Tampa hoisted a Lombardi. His work as a GM ensured there was basically no plan at the QB position last offseason until they hit the panic button with Cam. His work as a GM is why you’re staring at another year with the “worst QB in the NFL” (again, your words). So yeah, you can defend that by pointing at the results while ignoring that his work GM is very far down the list for why, after his work as a coach and Brady.

 

[Ring 6]

What are our needs? Why do we have these needs? What resources have we dedicated to filling those needs? Any GM that’s done a good job in recent years of stocking the team with young talent doesn’t look at a near total rebuild one year after he loses the key centerpiece. Any GM that’s done a good job in recent years doesn’t allow that QB to get to UFA when he still clearly has excellent football left in him.

I would argue he isn’t even a top 10 GM all time. His excellence as a coach and having a QB taking less than top money while being able to make everyone around him better (your words when analyzing talent at the skill positions in years past) won those Super Bowls. His work as a GM cost him at least one (2019) and is point blank the primary reason why the dynasty ended early here while Tampa hoisted a Lombardi. His work as a GM ensured there was basically no plan at the QB position last offseason until they hit the panic button with Cam. His work as a GM is why you’re staring at another year with the “worst QB in the NFL” (again, your words). So yeah, you can defend that by pointing at the results while ignoring that his work GM is very far down the list for why, after his work as a coach and Brady.

I am judging his entire record not a prediction what a team that still gave almost 60 million to spend will be. Part of being a gm is using that money to fill needs.
By all means tell me all of the GMs who have won more than him and never had a down year, or needs to fill.

 

[Kontradiction]

What makes you believe this? Is it because of the Cam signing?
History shows it's more likely he trades down. I think he's only traded up 4 times in the 1st round and 3 of the 4 picks were for defensive players (Warren, High, Jones) .

He’s never had this big of a need at the most important position on the field before.

 

[Froob]

If feel bad for Hoyer. He played better than 90% of Cam’s game but got bench. Bill didn’t want to treat Brady differently but had no problem to do it with Cam.

No he didn’t lol.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Honest question: with the way the team looked last year, all the holes, lack of talent, no franchise QB, etc. did you expect to make it deep into the playoffs this season? Even accounting for all of the available cap space?

Why can't we improve the talent and depth of the team so we are just a QB away from contending again? Is that so wrong? Is being patient for 2 to 3 years after 6 SBs asking for too much?

What if Bill has already decided that there isn't a QB in the NFL reasonably available that he believes to be the "guy." We're not getting Watson or Wilson (price is too high). Why waste any more time on this? Grab Cam who you know to be a team player and leader and move on. Maybe he thinks that with better talent, a better defense, he can win 3 to 4 more games, showing improvement w/o having to sink $15M-$20M on a JAG QB.

I actually think the value's there to improve at QB, but we want to hear/read a name to get really excited about. I've put this out there before: it's easy to get better production than 8 TDs, 10 INTs, and gaudy running TDs that can primarily be had by a RB. QB's gonna cost something high, it's the QB. Do you really think he's okay playing without one - the basic steady state of retaining Cam?

We're used to having very few holes, and complaining about the ones we have. I hear you, and since every other team ever has had to suffer in the pits after leaguewide dominance, maybe we do too.

But maybe going 7-9 with a guy who couldn't throw his back out, couldn't throw his (fashionable) hat into the ring in a middle school class election, couldn't pass out, couldn't complete the sentence in the post above, and couldn't connect with a receiver with 5 bars and unlimited minutes, might mean that we'd go 10-6 or 11-5 with an okay-ish QB, all else held water-treading constant (something you'd think the Pats could do with the cap space they have).

The Brisket playing QB in Indy in 2019 ended up with 18 TDs and 6 interceptions. That is 10 more passing TDs than Cam got us and 4 fewer picks. Again, it's tough to quantify the OSF, or "Oh Shoot Factor," that is to say, Cam's superb ability to make every play a (largely successful) running play, out of a combination of athleticism and self-preservation in the absence of remaining traditional QB skills. But again, Running Backs, we got. That's just one example of "guys you can get in 2021 without breaking the bank." But if we want a value guy, hell, someone else's backup might well be the "answer," with Cam in the wings, champing at the bit to prove he can get us 9 passing TDs this year.

He'll be given a 2nd-year-in-the-system, maybe-he-needs-weapons, high-hopes shot at competing. Maybe he'll shock us all. But if this move is about using Cam as The Guy in 2021, it's like tasting a jug of milk and going "This milk is SOUR, I'm putting it back in the fridge until tomorrow." Or remarrying your first wife. It's just really unlikely to be better a year later.

I think Cam's there to push other guys or shock in camp, and to be an asset as a backup. God bless him for being okay with landing here again if that's the case, and if not, I need those velcro sneaks with no laces because damn.

 

[Ivan]

Wins are a team stat. Not a coach or GM stat.

I think we saw last year what happens when Bill has a subpar QB and team to work with.

Disagree completely. General managers, coaches, and QB’s are evaluated on wins and championships.This is why the GM’s, coaches, and QB’s who are in the Hall of Fame are those with the most wins and championships.

 

[ashley]

He won because of his performance as a HC and because he had the GOAT QB for two decades. He won in spite of his, at times, mediocre at best job as a GM. As a matter of fact, one could make a very solid argument that he would have won AT LEAST one more had it not been for his shortfalls as a GM. As soon as he lost one of those components (again, thanks a miscue as a general manager), his work as a GM caught up to him and he missed the playoffs for the first time in 12 seasons and only the second time since Y2K. BB is the GOAT HC. BB is very far from the GOAT GM. Don’t believe that? As an exercise, think of the needs we have. The greatest ones that must be filled immediately. Then consider why we have those needs. Have we not dedicated any resources to filling those needs over the last half decade or so?

Kontra, I think you are being fair here, with some good points, the interesting thing I have found over the. years is that when BB makes a trade, it is usually very, very good. (ie..Trent Brown, Moss, Welker, Talib etc) Some of his picks(not second guessing, but even at the time were questioned) Tavon Wilson, Jordan Richards, Rohwasser etc...are quite puzzling. I just don't know how to judge him as a GM against other GM's, especially when other GM's haven't had the success that we've had. We know he is head and shoulders above anyone as a coach and having his team prepared, but I think it's a lot tougher to judge him as a GM against other GM's, especially with the success that we've had over the past 20 years. It does help that he had the GOAT for all those years, (he did draft him btw).
I remember my brothers asking my dad to compare BB against Bill Parcels and my dad said that BB was the better coach but BP was the better judge of talent. Always resonated with me.