[Old 2020 thread] NFL Free Agency/Trade Rumors:

[long distance]

I strongly disagree. Rookies are by far the best use of capital.

BBs 20 yrs of roster building strongly disagrees

 

[Ring 6]

I DON'T want to trigger yet another BB v. Brady thread.

I want to know if we used all the money created under the cap by our opt-outs (i.e. did we extend people, etc., use up all the cap space)? I suppose the league year isn't over yet and we still have time to do that.

If we do, I can easily see the strategic value in taking a big hit last year, if we use up all that space.

Logically, you can make a case for letting Brady go--if you use up all that space.

I still wouldn't have done it, but... the logic is there.

overthecap.com has moved on from last year and is now only looking at this coming year, so I can't tell what happened to our cap situation for 2020.

Love to hear if we used up all the space.

We didn’t because before the opts outs we had about 47 cents and after the opt outs there were no players worth signing available.

 

[Ring 6]

This has been thoroughly discussed on this board. Your numbers are wrong.

I can't even believe you're pursuing this when you very well know Thuney's contract was guaranteed when he signed it so there was no way we were cutting him whether we signed Brady or not.

If we needed to, we would have cut a host of people who would have cleared $16m off the cap. Cannon alone would have given us a huge chunk. Adrian Phillips would have gotten us to $16m with Cannon. But then add Beau Allen, Brandon Bolden, Matt Lacosse, Brandon King, Dan Vitale, Akeem Spence, etc., and we're in the upper 20ms with space. Now we haven't even discussed Brady's dead money hit from last year. So you're not even counting Brady's cap hit correctly. It would have been $20m - Brady's dead money. Significantly less than $20m. The $20m would be divided evenly with the 1 year extension into 2021.

But beyond that, we wouldn't taken on a bunch of new contracts from players that never helped us.

Once again, BB offered Brady AFTER Thuney was franchised.

This is an incontrovertible fact.

Patriots also finished with $20,331,213 in cap space.

Oh and you can rescind a franchise tag up until it is signed by the player. Brady announced he was leaving before thuney signed it, not that it means anything to my argument, just correcting your factual error for the record.

 

[holyredeemer]

BB better get a good QB asap if he wants to sign Hunter Henry....

If his camp is going to find a way to cash in big, I want nothing to do with him. Really solid talent when he can stay healthy. Not amazing, but really solid. Not someone I’d want the team throwing 10M+ at though.

 

[holyredeemer]

No thanks give me Njoku or Smith

Why would you rather have Njoku? Curious. I’d rather get Njoku as well, but because he’d be a lot cheaper (I think) and more of a complimentary piece to our young developing TE’s.

 

[holyredeemer]

Can we get this thread back on track and talking about 2021 FA & Trade rumors? I really care about what everyone hears and has to say, but wading through all the arguments over **** that has been beat to death about a guy no longer on the team is frustrating.

 

[upstater1]

Wait.
Now you are arguing that I am wrong to say the cap meant the patriots were not going to be able to improve because they could have just cut a bunch of players?

The 20 mill of cap was due to opt outs which occurred after the were any available players worth spending it on.

Let’s try this a different way.
The 2020 Patriots deteriorated from the 2019 Patriots because they lost key players that they couldn’t afford to replace.
It is indisputable the quality of the roster took a step backward because of the cap.
When newton signed for $1,000,000 the cap was all used up. FACT.
The team aside from QB was not as good as the not good enough 2019 team.
If you paid Brady 20 mill or even 10 mill you would have had to release players compared to what you had when Newton signed.
And you arguing if they brought Brady back the rest of the team wouldn’t have been worse because they could just cut guys.

Your argument has painted you into a corner.

1. They signed guys AFTER Brady left amounting to $16m on the cap.
2. If Brady, stayed, they don't sign Adrian Phillips and Beau Allen and all those guys.
3. Brady leaving left a dead cap hit.
4. If he stays, that cap hit is extended over 2 or 3 years.
5. So any savings by NOT signing Brady is used up by the considerable dead cap hit.
6. Brady's cap hit would have been something between his salary and the dead cap hit (depending on signing bonus).
7. What I objected to originally was the idea that signing Brady meant cutting Thuney and Hightower. This is what you wrote.
8. That's wrong.
9. If you had written it would have meant cutting Cannon and not signing Beau Allen and Phillips, I would have agreed.

 

[venecol]

1. They signed guys AFTER Brady left amounting to $16m on the cap.
2. If Brady, stayed, they don't sign Adrian Phillips and Beau Allen and all those guys.
3. Brady leaving left a dead cap hit.
4. If he stays, that cap hit is extended over 2 or 3 years.
5. So any savings by NOT signing Brady is used up by the considerable dead cap hit.
6. Brady's cap hit would have been something between his salary and the dead cap hit (depending on signing bonus).
7. What I objected to originally was the idea that signing Brady meant cutting Thuney and Hightower. This is what you wrote.
8. That's wrong.
9. If you had written it would have meant cutting Cannon and not signing Beau Allen and Phillips, I would have agreed.

What's your point. Brady is gone. He won a SB. What's done is done. Who cares. Just drop it or start another thread just on this topic.

 

[upstater1]

Oh and you can rescind a franchise tag up until it is signed by the player. Brady announced he was leaving before thuney signed it, not that it means anything to my argument, just correcting your factual error for the record.

I have March 18th for both. You're seriously telling me that BB planned to rescind the franchise tag the moment Brady signed with the Patriots? That's what you're saying? And BB--of all people--just left it to chance that he could rescind it the moment Brady agreed? NO.

 

[upstater1]

We didn’t because before the opts outs we had about 47 cents and after the opt outs there were no players worth signing available.

I'm not talking about signing players. I'm talking about moving contracts forward.

 

[upstater1]

Maybe you should go back and read what you said because what you're claiming to have said ISN'T what you said.


Neither of those sentences are remotely close to you saying "The Patriots didn't take the Brady offer off the table after they Franchised Thuney". those sentences say "They franchised Thuney and THEN offered Brady a contract". One has ZERO to do with the other. That's the only FACT here.

Sigh. OK, I misspoke. Wondering if you're the only one being this petty. I meant that the Brady contract offer was still good AFTER they franchised Thuney.

And you're hopelessly confused about what's being discussed here. You wrote "One has ZERO to do with the OTHER." No sh--! That's the point I'm making to Rings who is arguing that the Patriots would have CUT Thuney if they signed Brady. And I'm saying "One has ZERO to do with the OTHER." If they were connected, the Brady offer would be dead once they franchised Thuney. Clearly, BB knew he could sign both and keep them.

 

[upstater1]

You are conflating guys who were signed during the 2020 free agency and guys who were already under contract. Out of your list, Phillips, Allen, and Vitale were signed during free agency. Spence and Carl Davis were mid-season signings due to injuries. Phillips only cost 2.2M against the 2020 cap. Cannon accounted for 7.5M against the 2020 cap until he Opted out. So I'm not sure how you're getting to "almost $16M" for the two of them.. You don't even make it to $10M with Phillips and Cannon.

LaCosse, King, and Bolden were already under contract prior to the 2020 Free Agency. LaCosse and Bolden opted out. King was on IR all year.

Please list all the players besides Allen and Vitale that were signed that ate up cap room that never helped us..

What the Patriots FINISHED with has ZERO bearing on what they started with because, at one point after Brady had gone elsewhere, they were at less than $1M in free cap space. They only got SOME money from the AB grievance settlement and the AH situation in MAY. The remaining money came in July when the 8 opt-outs occurred. And Vitale is the only FA signing who "opted out".

Did you stop to think of any of the ramifications of any of the "cuts" / " not signing" you're suggesting?

Adrian Phillips - We'd have been left with Terry Brooks taking a lion-share of the snaps until Dugger was healthy.. Brooks makes Richards look like a capable safety. Brady wouldn't be able to cover up that huge of a whole on the defense.

Allen - Considering where the Pats were drafting, they weren't going to add a capable NT. Then what? You couldn't have foreseen in March that Allen was going to hurt his foot in May and be lost for the season.

LaCosse - You cut him and you're down to just IZZO on the team heading into the Draft. Is that really a sound move? Doesn't it signal to other teams that you are going to be desperate for a TE and then it would jack up the price for trading..

Bolden - A big-time special team player. He burned the Pats when they let him go for the year. It's why they were quick to re-sign him in 2019. If he hadn't opted out, he'd have gotten regular snaps after Burkhead went down.

Cannon - Cutting him would have left the team with Eleumenor, Cunningham, and Cajuste. It would have likely forced them to draft a OT prospect HIGHER than they did in Onwenu and Herron. Would losing Onwenu be worth cutting Cannon?

Now. You keep saying that it's an "incontrovertible fact" that the Patriots Franchised Thuney before they went to Brady. You're wrong. BB and Brady had a phone call on February 28th in regards to a contract. Thuney wasn't Franchised until March 16th.

Here are March 13th articles. The first one mentioning the talks between Brady 2 and BB weeks prior:

New England Patriots offer Tom Brady one-year contract for less than previous season: report

The chances of Tom Brady resigning with the New England Patriots before he enters the free agency market next week are not looking good after a report emerged Friday that head coach Bill Belichick offered him a lackluster deal during a phone call earlier this month.

www.foxnews.com

Report: Patriots offered Tom Brady a one-year deal at less than 2019 salary

And here is are March 14th article saying that Brady was offered a contract "recently":

Report: Patriots make initial contract offer to Tom Brady, two sides to talk again

The Patriots offered a one-year deal with less value compared to what Brady earned last season.

us.blastingnews.com

Patriots Told Tom Brady They Could Offer Him This Contract

A new report sheds light on the contract numbers Tom Brady and Bill Belichick discussed during their recent phone call.

www.nbcboston.com

And here is the March 16th article mentioning they Tagged Thuney:

Patriots Place Franchise Tag On Joe Thuney

The Patriots will be using their franchise tag on Joe Thuney.

boston.cbslocal.com

So, if you have information that they Patriots didn't sent an offer until after the 16th, Please share.

You went through a lot of work for nothing. The Brady offer didn't die AFTER Thuney was franchised, like the ther guy argued. Follow along please.


Marcus Cannon: almost $10m (you didn't include his cap hit from last year which was $2.8m after the opt out. If you included that, you'd take his cap hit + the cap savings from cutting him this year and you'd get $9.9m+)

Cam Newton: $1.75m

Adrian Phillips: $2.75m

Beau Allen: $3m

Total: $17.5m

This doesn't even include the calculation of Brady's hit if he was signed. The dead cap hit was $13.5m, though of course I don't know what the signing bonus would have been last year, but the dead cap hit would have been spread over 2 or 3 years.

BEFORE opt outs, they had the money to sign Brady and Thuney. Cutting Cannon and not signing Phillips / Allen / Newton would have been more than enough. I'm sure Belichick was really looking at cutting more than Cannon prior to the opt outs.

 

[upstater1]

What's your point. Brady is gone. He won a SB. What's done is done. Who cares. Just drop it or start another thread just on this topic.

Are you the board police now?

Someone stated we couldn't have signed Brady because of the salary cap. He stated it would have meant we would have had to cut ties with Thuney.

It's not true.

That's why I'm posting.

 

[captain stone]

I had no idea Patriots had signed Roberto Aguayo. Lol

Licht should've been fired for that pick...I wonder if he & Dirk Mister Koetter still exchange Christmas cards...

 

[mgteich]

Are you the board police now?

What can we do so that we can have threads that have no discussion of Brady?

I've suggested that we have a separate Brady sub-board.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

If his camp is going to find a way to cash in big, I want nothing to do with him. Really solid talent when he can stay healthy. Not amazing, but really solid. Not someone I’d want the team throwing 10M+ at though.

All I know is that I've never seen BB chase down a player to talk to them after a game. Only reason why I think BB tries to sign him. I think we should go cheaper and sign jonnu smith

 

[venecol]

Licht should've been fired for that pick...I wonder if he & Dirk Mister Koetter still exchange Christmas cards...

Why would Bill sign him, isn't 3% on the team still?

 

[upstater1]

What can we do so that we can have threads that have no discussion of Brady?

I've suggested that we have a separate Brady sub-board.

Brady is almost irrelevant in this, since I'm trying to avoid as best I can the Brady-Belichick thing. This is about our salary cap and Belichick's management of it. I don't think BB painted himself into a corner moneywise last year.

 

[venecol]

No thanks give me Njoku or Smith

Winslow will be available in 14 years, if you're interested.

 

[Ring 6]

1. They signed guys AFTER Brady left amounting to $16m on the cap.
2. If Brady, stayed, they don't sign Adrian Phillips and Beau Allen and all those guys.
3. Brady leaving left a dead cap hit.
4. If he stays, that cap hit is extended over 2 or 3 years.
5. So any savings by NOT signing Brady is used up by the considerable dead cap hit.
6. Brady's cap hit would have been something between his salary and the dead cap hit (depending on signing bonus).
7. What I objected to originally was the idea that signing Brady meant cutting Thuney and Hightower. This is what you wrote.
8. That's wrong.
9. If you had written it would have meant cutting Cannon and not signing Beau Allen and Phillips, I would have agreed.

I see the problem, you don’t understand the cap.
You can’t spread the dead money hit to “2-3 years”. The dead money of about 13.5 mill would have been spread over 2 years not one.
Brady’s cap number wouldn’t be “somewhere between” it would have been 6.75 mill, from above, plus his 2020 salary plus half of his new signing bonus on his 2 year contract. If he got the contract Tampa gave him, he counted 25 million there so it would have been 31.75 mill here.
compared to the 13.5 we took in dead money, it would have hit our cap an additional 18.25 mill.
All the moves we made through newton had us right up against the cap. So if we kept Brady we would have had to shed (or not added) 18.25 million.
Hence the point that we would have not been able to keep Thuney and McCourty (almost exactly the same cost)
Sure you could find 18.25 million elsewhere but no matter where, you have downgraded the actual team that was on the field in 2020 which was a downgrade already from 2019 due to the cap.
The cap savings on cutting cannon (which results in a bad 2019 OL seemingly getting much worse for Brady) not signing Philips ( who was one of our best defenders) and Allen (meaning you would have felt letting Shelton go and adding no one at dt is smart) would have affected the cap by only 12 million, not enough, and less than thuneys hit alone.