Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[bigballas]

Maybe that’s what broke the camels back in the Brady Belichick relationship...

 

[sb1]

Anthony Lyn wouldn't have won 2 games with the Pats this year. Lets not try and compare Anthony Lynn to Bill.

McDaniels wouldn’t even win that many.

To be fair, GM Bill hasn’t done Coach Bill many favors. With the GOAT gone the spotlight is shining on a deteriorated roster. With the GOAT’s success this year maybe that will be motivation to do whatever it takes to fix it. Hopefully.

 

[ashley]

McDaniels wouldn’t even win that many.

To be fair, GM Bill hasn’t done Coach Bill many favors. With the GOAT gone the spotlight is shining on a deteriorated roster. With the GOAT’s success this year maybe that will be motivation to do whatever it takes to fix it. Hopefully.

Fingers crossed SB

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Bledsoe was a stiff and a choke artist but he was a way better NFL quarterback than Doug flippin Flutie. You're bringing up names that aren't helping your argument. If you want to argue Flutie was better than Hugh Millen or Tony Eason then maybe I'll listen.

Bart flippin Starr and Johnny flippin Unitas say hello

QB of the worst team in football and a pickup sandlot QB

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Bledsoe was a stiff and a choke artist but he was a way better NFL quarterback than Doug flippin Flutie. You're bringing up names that aren't helping your argument. If you want to argue Flutie was better than Hugh Millen or Tony Eason then maybe I'll listen.

So Doug Flutie was way worse than a stiff and a choke artist.

Drew Bledsoe would have got killed in the CFL

 

[Biffins]

The best part about that sequence was how there was anxiety all around Bill and everyone panicking into his headset, and he calmly said how 'we got this'. That kind of calm cool is what helps make Bill the GOAT.

I have an exercise for everyone here. Let's try to list as many of Bill's on-field mistakes as we can. I'll start;
1) Benching Butler. If he did something that wrong then why did he play at all?
2) 4th and 2 at Indy. Not so much the call but what led up to the call. By passing on 3rd and 2 and using their last TO they kept the clock over 2 minutes and couldn't get a replay.
3) Sitting Welker for the first series in the playoff game against the Jets. I think that one took a little bit away from the team and they didn't recover.
4) I seem to vaguely remember him going very conservative at the end of one year and it might have cost them a better seed in the playoffs.
5) Sitting on the ball at the end of the half vs KC last year even though there was time to go for points. The fans voiced their opinion on that with boos that the mediots (and some fans here) claimed was the fans booing the players, which it was not.

If anyone has any others feel free to respond, but that's about it for me. That's 5 mistakes in 20 years. I can live with that. I was thinking of making another list of Bill's great moves, but I didn't have the time. The game is on in 5 hours.

How about going for 4th and 13 in the 3rd quarter from the Giant's 31 yard line in Superbowl XLII with the score at 7-3 instead of letting Gostkowski hit a 49 yard field goal or hitting a punt. Same Gostkowski who just went 7/8 from 50 yards+ this season. 49 yard isn't even THAT long. How can it be better to try 4th and 13th? What percentage are we playing? Why not punt if you want. Score was 7-3, even point matters. And we lost 17-14. We could have had those 3 pts if we had attempted. It might not have gone in but for god sake it was better than a 4th and 13th. Even punt is better.

That has to be one of the monumentally stupid decisions in a Superbowl by any coach.

And after that Superbowl Bill getting on a podium and saying the coaching staff let the players down ......... well no **** they did. They never managed to figure out a way to stop the Giant's 4-man rush. 4 man frickin rush getting pressure........... all game long. Frickin Logan Mankins may be HoF worthy but that game he stank it up. He always came up small in the biggest games. No wonder he never got any Superbowls with us despite being here 10 years.

 

[Biffins]

Tom was not the super duper star he is today in 2002. Many players including Rodney Harrison came here because they liked the absence of fanfare and fluff, and they knew that they'd be given a fair shot to play and they had a chance to earn personal success in the context of commitment to the team. It's why most of the guys on the team now want to stay, including Julian, I believe. The Pats are still exceptional in this regard.

The departure of Brady does have an effect - many guys wanted the chance to play with him. But odds were Tom should have retired already. We knew we were moving on from him a long time ago. As far as Tom personally, he spent two decades seeing close friends sent away to other cities and teams, and always interacted with fellow players who got to play in a freer culture, yes less committed to winning but happier. Tom earned the right to go and play where he wants, and I respect that. He didn't want to stay here. And no I didn't expect Kraft to replace Belichick with Arians and let Tom have Nelson de la Rosa on the sidelines just to please him for a year or two more. Tom said he's happy to be away from the cold (although it gets mighty cold in Green Bay if the Bucs make it there).

I don't blame anybody for being mesmerized by Brady's individual success and stats and records. He earned them. But as the Celtics remained competitive and won titles after Russell, the Patriots should too. As with Auerbach, the Patriots need Belichick today more than ever. At least as the GM, and on the sidelines as long as he wants to be. It's not about breaking records although I would love to overtake that racist Halas and that assh*le Shula. It's about sustaining the winning attitude and culture. It's not flashy and not always pretty, but it's part of what makes the Patriots the best. Even if we don't win the Super Bowl.

Tons of things you said are inaccurate.

1. Players came here because we won and went to Superbowls. Tom may not be the super duper star but the contention is that without him we don't win those Superbowls. Infact this is the premise for the thread, who mattered more. So I would say Rodney Harrison came here because we won the 2001 Superbowl and I contend we can't do that without Brady. So hence Harrison came here because of Brady. Tom went to 9 Superbowls in 18 healthy seasons with the Patriots as starter (ignoring his redshirt first season and 2009). That's a 50% hit rate. THAT is why people were coming to the Pats............. not the "Patriots Way". Let's see how attractive the "Patriots Way" is and how much running up and down that hill in OTAs works for people when we have losing seasons and skip postseasons. I am guessing........... not so much.
2. Why should Tom have retired already? Why do we know we were moving on from him? Like BB was ready to move on from him in 2013? Yeah that was smart. He only won 3 more SBs, went to 4, won NFL MVP, etc in next 5 years. Egg on BB's face with his stupidity. And as a reward for that stupidity Kraft (who veto'ed holding on the JG the first time) capitulates and gave in and kicked Brady out. Brady has shown no decline in performance and no inclination to retire. Why should he retire or why should we move on from him. He just won another postseason game. We're the idiots here.
3. Also you are wrong to say Tom didn't want to stay here. COME ON! It's clear that the Pats pushed him out. He had just won the Superbowl and wanted an extension and instead the Pats told him to suck it, and gave him a 1 year extension with some hard-to-hit escalators and he asked them to remove the franchise tag and put his house up for sale. We had a huge thread on these forums where I lambasted BB and Kraft for pushing Brady out and everyone critisized me for overdramatising it and that no way in hell would Brady go anywhere. And then we were all "shocked" when Brady didn't take the ****ty deal the Pats were offering just as a way to pushing him out. BB didn't even talk to Brady all off-season. BB WANTED BRADY OUT. Please don't say otherwise. It's a lie. And BB's being shown to be a fool. I hope Kraft shows BB the same patience he showed Brady............NONE!. Kick his ass to the curb. Frickin grouch.
4. "Brady's individual success and stats and records"................???? what a shockingly glib statement. Brady was our talisman. Our cornerstone. Without Brady we might not even reach any Superbowls. Watch the black-hole that is at the heart of our organization now without Brady. Let's see how competitive we are with the big brain of BB and no QB next season, and then likely his last season (I assume he'll get kicked out after 3 losing seasons).

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Delete

 

[ensoul]

BB is obviously a great coach but I am Going with Brady for the simple fact of how many games he won despite having a flawed roster. Plus as I type this Brady has done without BB than BB has done without Brady.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Maybe that’s what broke the camels back in the Brady Belichick relationship...

In what way?

 

[203Pat]

I'll say that there is no other coach that could have won 7 games this year with the talent that we have on our roster. We definitely need an upgrade at QB, WR and the front 7.

This was my biggest takeaway from this season. Bill might be struggling in the team building aspect in the last few years but the gap between him and the second best coach is a mile long. There is no way this team should have won 7 games with what may be the worst roster in the league top to bottom. Shows how much coaching matters when Bill beats the Chargers 45-0 and the Chargers are more talented at pretty much every single position.

 

[wpdougie2180]

How about going for 4th and 13 in the 3rd quarter from the Giant's 31 yard line in Superbowl XLII with the score at 7-3 instead of letting Gostkowski hit a 49 yard field goal or hitting a punt. Same Gostkowski who just went 7/8 from 50 yards+ this season. 49 yard isn't even THAT long. How can it be better to try 4th and 13th? What percentage are we playing? Why not punt if you want. Score was 7-3, even point matters. And we lost 17-14. We could have had those 3 pts if we had attempted. It might not have gone in but for god sake it was better than a 4th and 13th. Even punt is better.

That has to be one of the monumentally stupid decisions in a Superbowl by any coach.

And after that Superbowl Bill getting on a podium and saying the coaching staff let the players down ......... well no **** they did. They never managed to figure out a way to stop the Giant's 4-man rush. 4 man frickin rush getting pressure........... all game long. Frickin Logan Mankins may be HoF worthy but that game he stank it up. He always came up small in the biggest games. No wonder he never got any Superbowls with us despite being here 10 years.

In the 2015 season there were several including the PR snafu in Denver, Winning the toss in OT after a TD drive to tie it up & send it to OT vs the Jets and deciding to defer, the Philly game that turned on a pooch kickoff. The Miami miracle which not only included putting Gronk in on a none Hail Mary play but also letting the clock run out while having 3 timeouts in the 1st half after stopping them and having 2 mins left. There are more but that's just off the top of the dome

 

[bigballas]

In what way?

Sorry my comment was in jest...

we know Gisele is anti Trump . And also forbade Brady to involve himself in Trump rhetoric and politics. Skip WH ceremonies etc . While Belichick has endorsed Trump

but def not a factor here

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Sorry my comment was in jest...

we know Gisele is anti Trump . And also forbade Brady to involve himself in Trump rhetoric and politics. Skip WH ceremonies etc . While Belichick has endorsed Trump

but def not a factor here

Belichick and Brady both knew Trump personally (Belichick was/is a member of Mar-A-Lago and Brady's association is well known but was always a celebrity crossover deal before 2016.) You could make the opposite case about Belichick and Brady endorsing Trump, based on their national anthem comments which were more recent.

Whatever it is, both have intentionally steered clear of politics for a long time. We probably shouldn't try to read too much into what they believe or who they endorse, since we really don't know. It isn't 2016 anymore.

Frankly, I hate that Belichick has been dragged into this. No matter what, lots of people will hate him.

 

[amfootball]

This was my biggest takeaway from this season. Bill might be struggling in the team building aspect in the last few years but the gap between him and the second best coach is a mile long. There is no way this team should have won 7 games with what may be the worst roster in the league top to bottom. Shows how much coaching matters when Bill beats the Chargers 45-0 and the Chargers are more talented at pretty much every single position.

I thought this year was one of Bill's worst coaching jobs. Terrible challenges all year long, awful defensive game plans vs the awful Texans, Broncos and Niners. Pumping Cam's tires ALL season long and refusing to do anything at the QB position to improve play. I mean the list goes on and on. Citing the Chargers win with probably the worst coach in the league is hardly a ringing endorsement of Bill this year.

 

[crawhammer]

So Doug Flutie was way worse than a stiff and a choke artist.

Drew Bledsoe would have got killed in the CFL

Are you unaware the CFL is garbage?

Apparently you have a soft spot for Flutie but I can't hardly take anything you're saying seriously when you're contending Flutie was a better NFL quarterback than Elway. Or Bledsoe for that matter.

 

[203Pat]

I thought this year was one of Bill's worst coaching jobs. Terrible challenges all year long, awful defensive game plans vs the awful Texans, Broncos and Niners. Pumping Cam's tires ALL season long and refusing to do anything at the QB position to improve play. I mean the list goes on and on. Citing the Chargers win with probably the worst coach in the league is hardly a ringing endorsement of Bill this year.

I thought there were a few head scratchers here and there but overall he made chicken salad out of chicken sh*t (granted he collected the chicken sh*t himself). We basically played the whole season with one LB who should, at best, be a role player as he is as one dimensional as they come. Leaving Cam in there all year I kind of put on there personnel side as he shoved Brady out the door with no backup plan and got burned.

 

[crawhammer]

This was my biggest takeaway from this season. Bill might be struggling in the team building aspect in the last few years but the gap between him and the second best coach is a mile long. There is no way this team should have won 7 games with what may be the worst roster in the league top to bottom. Shows how much coaching matters when Bill beats the Chargers 45-0 and the Chargers are more talented at pretty much every single position.

The Chargers had lost 4 out of their last 5 when they played the Patriots and the 1 win was against the Jets who were winless at the time. There's nothing impressive about that "victory." I was merely joking about Anthony Lynn before but seriously he won 7 games with a rookie quarterback and the Chargers finished out the season on a 4-game winning streak. The Patriots were a dumpster fire in December except for picking on the hapless Jets (who had the actual worst head coach in the league).

Belichick doesn't get kudos for winning 7 games when he averaged 12 wins a season for two decades with Brady. 7 wins is not good. If Brady had won just 7 meaningless games in Tampa Bay he would have retired post-haste. Unfortunately Belichick will not extend us that curtesy. He's not just going down with the ship, he's torpedoing it.

 

[captain stone]

How about going for 4th and 13 in the 3rd quarter from the Giant's 31 yard line in Superbowl XLII with the score at 7-3 instead of letting Gostkowski hit a 49 yard field goal or hitting a punt. Same Gostkowski who just went 7/8 from 50 yards+ this season. 49 yard isn't even THAT long. How can it be better to try 4th and 13th? What percentage are we playing? Why not punt if you want. Score was 7-3, even point matters. And we lost 17-14. We could have had those 3 pts if we had attempted. It might not have gone in but for god sake it was better than a 4th and 13th. Even punt is better.

That has to be one of the monumentally stupid decisions in a Superbowl by any coach.

And after that Superbowl Bill getting on a podium and saying the coaching staff let the players down ......... well no **** they did. They never managed to figure out a way to stop the Giant's 4-man rush. 4 man frickin rush getting pressure........... all game long. Frickin Logan Mankins may be HoF worthy but that game he stank it up. He always came up small in the biggest games. No wonder he never got any Superbowls with us despite being here 10 years.

Yep, and the right side of the OL was also a Complete Custerfluck after Stephen Neal left the game early in the 2nd quarter...And Bill wasn't seeing ANY of this because he was too damn busy with his back turned to the playing field and babbling to his defense while Skippy is being thoroughly out-coached by Spags for over half the feckin game...

 

[amfootball]

I thought there were a few head scratchers here and there but overall he made chicken salad out of chicken sh*t (granted he collected the chicken sh*t himself). We basically played the whole season with one LB who should, at best, be a role player as he is as one dimensional as they come. Leaving Cam in there all year I kind of put on there personnel side as he shoved Brady out the door with no backup plan and got burned.

We had one quality win - Ravens. Three awful losses to the Broncos, Texans and Niners. Game plans and coaching were awful in all three. 7 wins is not a good season. What Rivera did in Washington winning 7 games with 4 different QBs was a better feat.