Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[SHOWTIME15]

Brady's only the smartest, most experienced, and clutch postseason quarterback of all-time. And you somehow can't fathom that he would audible out of a bad look at the goal line?

Oh, I should have known. He's 9-0 in super bowls and hasn't thrown a single INT in the postseason.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Firstly I don't necessarily understand Belichick's explanation.

FIFY

 

[crawhammer]

Wrong again.

How is not calling a timeout "idiotic" when it resulted in a Super Bowl win???

Your inability to credit BB with a great call is telling.

Wilson's throw did not hit Butler in the pads. He took it just as he had practiced.

Firstly I said good prep (by coaches and players), good call (by coaches), and great execution (by players) with an assist to Wilson for the choke. I'm giving Belichick his due credit for the prep and the call.

Not calling a timeout was idiotic. The chances of the Seahawks turning the ball over in that spot was extremely remote. Had Wilson audibled or thrown the ball away or just not drilled the pass into Butler's chest, Belichick would have looked like a complete buffoon.

 

[crawhammer]

Oh, I should have known. He's 9-0 in super bowls and hasn't thrown a single INT in the postseason.

9 Super Bowls, 6 game-winning drives, 3 would-be game-winning drives that got wiped out by Belichick's defenses.

 

[sb1]

The official statement was that the personnel on the field gave the team the best opportunity to win the game. If there's a rumor that it's because he got busted smoking pot the night before, that's fine. I don't much think the "best opportunity to win the game" was solely a statement that he was just not good right then.

also for the general good of the order, @1960Pats @sb1 @whoever said he smoked weed @whoever else is back down this rabbit hole on any side... Here's a contemporaneous article...

Malcolm Butler of the Patriots Denies Wild Super Bowl Week Rumors (Published 2018)



So the guy who knew enough to "make" Butler -- along w/Butler's execution, let's be fair -- also sat Butler. At least according to the official story, BB sat him because he wanted to take away the tight ends, against whom he thought he had a better shot w/Rowe.

In SB XXXVI, the game plan was to take away Faulk. It's widely thought to have been brilliant. The pats were one of the most prohibitive 'dogs in Super Bowl history. BB looked at what he'd seen of the Rams all season, including during the Pats game earlier in the year, and he tried to figure out who you take away. His decision was you take away Marshall Faulk, because SO much of the Rams offense went through Faulk, despite their other aerial weapons (let's not classify Marshall as a ground piece only.) It worked. He was smart and he made a SB winner out of a buncha nobodies and a game manager stand-in QB. What's the story line if Ricky Proehl or Torry Holt gets another couple TDs? To be fair... that the Pats had no chance, no matter what BB did.

Woulda coulda shoulda is tricky. This whole conversation points to that same conclusion. What if he'd played Butler and Foles just lit us up via the the tight ends? I'm not saying everything BB did came out right. I'm just saying he does things you wouldn't expect, so when he fails it's a "blunder" or "arrogant."

That said, 6 rings (not counting the D coordinator ring w NY) keeps biasing me in favor of BB. He's not invincible. Clearly lots of "fans" are all psyched to say "A ha! Now we see the unmasking of the "great man!" (& I know many of us back down this rabbit hole are saying just that, so nothing personal to anybody I @'d.)

I'm giving it a little time myself, and not taking chatter and rumor to be the inside scoop, that's all.

Butler was very emotional before and after the game. If all it was was a football decision, I don’t think he gets that emotional.

And clearly the move didn’t work anyway so why didn’t our best tackling corner go back in the game. The Pats couldn’t get off the field on 3rd down. Eagles punted only once. I have no doubt Butler turns at least one of those third downs into a punt. In a one score game that’s enough to reverse the result especially if your QB and offense is setting records themselves.

Bill is an all time great coach but this is one of the two major blunders that are part of his story.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Exactly. People were coming on below market contracts to play with Brady and go to the team that was always making deep post season runs. Not to put up with the grumpiest coach jn the game and an *******, while working on rebuilding project. Expect to pay top dollar.

Tom was not the super duper star he is today in 2002. Many players including Rodney Harrison came here because they liked the absence of fanfare and fluff, and they knew that they'd be given a fair shot to play and they had a chance to earn personal success in the context of commitment to the team. It's why most of the guys on the team now want to stay, including Julian, I believe. The Pats are still exceptional in this regard.

The departure of Brady does have an effect - many guys wanted the chance to play with him. But odds were Tom should have retired already. We knew we were moving on from him a long time ago. As far as Tom personally, he spent two decades seeing close friends sent away to other cities and teams, and always interacted with fellow players who got to play in a freer culture, yes less committed to winning but happier. Tom earned the right to go and play where he wants, and I respect that. He didn't want to stay here. And no I didn't expect Kraft to replace Belichick with Arians and let Tom have Nelson de la Rosa on the sidelines just to please him for a year or two more. Tom said he's happy to be away from the cold (although it gets mighty cold in Green Bay if the Bucs make it there).

I don't blame anybody for being mesmerized by Brady's individual success and stats and records. He earned them. But as the Celtics remained competitive and won titles after Russell, the Patriots should too. As with Auerbach, the Patriots need Belichick today more than ever. At least as the GM, and on the sidelines as long as he wants to be. It's not about breaking records although I would love to overtake that racist Halas and that assh*le Shula. It's about sustaining the winning attitude and culture. It's not flashy and not always pretty, but it's part of what makes the Patriots the best. Even if we don't win the Super Bowl.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Where is this Wilson choking coming from? He’s running the play that was called throwing to a spot. The throw is further down the line of what was to blame behind the actual playcall, and butler and browner winning their respective matchups. Just an amazing play by the defense nothing more.

 

[crawhammer]

I’ve heard many arguments for years about the timeout against Seattle. From a clock management perspective, it was absolutely insane. I’m glad it all worked out, but there is no way that was a good risk:reward there.

Not all decisions are good ones, even if they work out well.

Ding, Ding, Ding...we have a Winner!

Can anyone actually argue Belichick really thought the defense was getting a turnover there?

Best case scenario you're thinking a pass defense, clock is stopped with 0:26 left, and the Seahawks have 2 downs left from the 1-yard line with a timeout left.

Wilson got Belichick off the hook.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The most important reason Tom Brady had the success he had was because of Tom Brady and his upbringing. It also helped to have coaches who recognized how hard he worked and **** Rehbein pushing the Pats to draft him.

Yes, but Belichick sent **** to Michigan and had Bobby call Lloyd Carr. And the pressure on Belichick to put Bledsoe back in was astronomically greater than anything Berry got regarding Grogan in Super Bowl XX or Flutie down the stretch in '88.

Maybe we could also give some credit for Tom's accomplishments to Lama Hunt. If not for his money there might not have been an AFL to begin with.

It's true but if we keep going we're gonna have to credit the NFL owners for being selfish racist greedy assh*les who forced the creation of the AFL in the first place.

Why not give credit to Billy Sullivan? Without him there's no Patriots for Kraft to buy and then hire Belichick to draft Brady.

Maybe not regarding Tom directly, but absolutely yes we have to credit Billy. Hiring Fairbanks made the Patriots competitive for the championship in the modern era of the game. Further, his hiring of Ron Meyer brought Dante Scarnecchia here, whose contribution to the franchise should put him in the team and league HOF's.

 

[crawhammer]

All his career, he's been able to think and act objectively, practically and decisively in the highest pressure situations.

Sorry, Super Bowl 52 happened. Belichick's inexplicable benching of Butler, his inability to recognize his decision was flushing an entire season down the f*cking toilet, and his refusal to change course, entirely wipes out your above assessment.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

It was brilliant because it worked. It would have been viewed much differently had we lost.

Bill's not afraid of being called an idiot.

"Let Thurman Thomas run for over a hundred yards? Are you crazy?"

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Where is this Wilson choking coming from? He’s running the play that was called throwing to a spot. The throw is further down the line of what was to blame behind the actual playcall, and butler and browner winning their respective matchups. Just an amazing play by the defense nothing more.

The ball was right on target. Maybe Starr, Montana or Unitas might have checked down. Maybe not.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Sorry, Super Bowl 52 happened. Belichick's inexplicable benching of Butler, his inability to recognize his decision was flushing an entire season down the f*cking toilet, and his refusal to change course, entirely wipes out your above assessment.

That was only one instance. He was stubborn and determined not to change his mind, like Kraft on the uniforms and helmets, or David Stern and the ridiculous 2-3-2 Finals format.

And it was a pregame decision, not an in on field play calling context. Yes it was stupid. But everybody makes mistakes.

One way of looking at this is, when you make it to that many championship games, you're bound to do something blockheaded at some point, for the whole world to see and will cost you the title. Sorry.

 

[Tony2046]

Firstly I don't necessarily believe Belichick's explanation. Secondly I don't believe there was uncertainty on the Seahawks sideline. The entire coaching staff said they called the play that they wanted in that spot. Their offense was set up in plenty of time. Wilson should have recognized that NE countered with the right coverage and changed the play at the line of scrimmage or used the timeout. It was only the most important play of his career. The coaching staff trusted him in that spot and he choked.

Carol burned his second timeout after the Kearse catch leaving them just one left.

Lynch runs it to the half yard line. Clock is ticking.

BB calls for a goal line defense and uses a personnel grouping that he had never used. "Malcolm Go". He doesn't call a timeout because he liked the match up and didn't want Carol to have any extra time to decide how to attack the new goal line look.

Carol yells "they're going goal line". And with only one time out he calls a pass play. If it's incomplete the clock stops and if it's caught a td.

The Pats practiced that exact same play multiple times with that exact personnel groupings and there it was right in front of BB. He saw exactly what he wanted. He didn't call a timeout because he didn't want to give Carol time to figure it out.

 

[Tony2046]

Firstly I said good prep (by coaches and players), good call (by coaches), and great execution (by players) with an assist to Wilson for the choke. I'm giving Belichick his due credit for the prep and the call.

Not calling a timeout was idiotic. The chances of the Seahawks turning the ball over in that spot was extremely remote. Had Wilson audibled or thrown the ball away or just not drilled the pass into Butler's chest, Belichick would have looked like a complete buffoon.

We know BB prepared for that exact Seattle play.

He had created a defensive play to counter it. A defensive grouping Pete had not seen on film because the Patriots had never used it before.

BB saw exactly what he wanted to see. Exactly what they had prepared for.

Why is it difficult to understand why he wouldn't want to give Pete additional time to make adjustments?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

he signed Bledsoe to an absurd contract heading into the 2001 season.

Kraft worships Bledsoe to this day. At the time he ridiculously compared him to Williams, Russell, etc. Belichick was okay with it because it cleared money off the salary cap.

When you hit on the G.O.A.T. in the 6th round it's dumb luck.

Yes, but...Belichick was the only one who took the effort and the scouting to pull the trigger on him then. Another team might have gotten Tom otherwise.

Flutie had his chances in the NFL. He registered 66 career starts. His time with the Patriots was a disaster. He wasn't any good either after returning from the CFL. Not an NFL caliber quarterback.

Wow. Did you ever read Brady's results from the Scouting Combine? "Not an NFL caliber quarterback."

It's okay to not like Flutie or say he's short. And your opinion is shared by most of the league, along with the opinion that the Patriots were always a laughingstock and then cheated to win titles.

The facts are that Flutie was a phenomenon who took an otherwise mediocre BC team to the top of college football. He is among several top players who went to the USFL and later had success in the NFL. Ditka had the right idea, only he was coaching a team of assh*les who worshipped their king assh*le McMahon.

In 1988, Grogan got hurt again and, as in 1985, the team was pitifully losing until Berry, in desperation, put Flutie in. They proceeded to win seven out of ten games, including beating the other division winners. The losses were an early blowout at Green Bay, a narrow loss at Buffalo and the refs stealing one at Indy.

That Patriots team had a very good defense, very talented receivers, a monster running back in John Stephens, and more playoff and Super Bowl experience than anyone else in the AFC playoffs (the Broncos were out of it). The parallels to 2001 are eery: a losing team with individual talent and playoff and Super Bowl experience suddenly made competitive by a young, unexpectedly effective quarterback who executes clutch plays in the biggest situations and in the course of his first chance as a starter in the NFL puts his team on the brink of the postseason.

That head coach, Raymond Berry, did nothing to hide his contempt and disdain for Flutie, along with his absolute worship of Tony Eason. Berry made the change and of course the team lost, missed the playoffs and both Berry and Eason were finally, mercifully gone within a year.

Which is exactly what would have happened in 2001 had Belichick caved to conventional wisdom, the stupid mantra that a "starter cannot lose his job due to an injury", Bledsoe's parents, Bledsoe's friends on the team and in the media or the false notion that the kid was..."Not an NFL caliber quarterback." Only Bledsoe and his stupid contract would have stayed and we'd be sitting on zero Super Bowl wins today.

So then Flutie spends his prime in the CFL:

Career CFL statistics
3× Grey Cup champion (1992, 1996, 1997) 3× Grey Cup MVP (1992, 1996, 1997) 6× CFL's Most Outstanding Player (1991–1994, 1996, 1997) 6× CFL All-Star (1991–1994, 1996, 1997) CFL records 6,619 passing yards, season 48 passing touchdowns, season
TD–INT: 270–155 Passing yards: 41,355 Passer rating: 103.9 Rushing yards: 4,660 Rushing touchdowns: 66

Just take a glance at those numbers. To think that, had he stayed, Flutie would not have led the Patriots past the Bills or whoever to at least two Super Bowls in that time is crazy. I take him over Kelly and yes Elway every day and especially on Sundays.

After leaving the CFL, Doug considered retiring. But he came back to the NFL with the Bills. After they started 1-3, he was made the starter and went 8-3. He made the Pro Bowl, and passed for 360 yards in the playoff loss at Miami.

1999 was the final season that Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, and Thurman Thomas, the last three players remaining from the Bills' Super Bowl teams were on the same team together. The Bills allowed 229 points (14.3 points per game), the lowest total in franchise history in a 16-game season and allowed the fewest passing yards and fewest total yards in the NFL. Flutie went 10-5.

Then owner Ralph Wilson channeled his inner Raymond Berry/Billy Sullivan and ordered Wade Phillips to bench Flutie for the playoffs and they lost. That's two times Doug had the rug pulled out from under him on the brink of a potential championship, once as a youngster and the other as an aging veteran. He never suffered a serious injury or missed any time and he played well and kept his good attitude throughout his career and life.

So although I like your assertiveness and your passion and I appreciate your posts, you got the Flutie part wrong.

 

[crawhammer]

Just take a glance at those numbers. To think that, had he stayed, Flutie would not have led the Patriots past the Bills or whoever to at least two Super Bowls in that time is crazy. I take him over Kelly and yes Elway every day and especially on Sundays.

You're not serious.

I don't care what Flutie did in the CFL. The league's a circus act. Any those teams Flutie played for would have gone 0-16 in the NFL.

Flutie played in 22 games (13 starts) for the Patriots, he completed 48% of his pass attempts with 11 TD's, 14 INT's and QBR of 61. He was awful.

 

[crawhammer]

Why is it difficult to understand why he wouldn't want to give Pete additional time to make adjustments?

Pete's not the quarterback. Wilson's the quarterback. Wilson is the one who's supposed to make adjustments. He didn't. Instead he drilled the ball into Butler's chest. He did the same thing today on the screen to Metcalf...threw a dumb pass right to the defender for a pick-six. Wilson's a choker. Everyone had him winning league MVP at midseason and then he went on a turnover rampage.

Peter takes too much heat for SB 49. What Belichick did with Butler in SB 52 was a million times worse.

 

[crawhammer]

Hey, Brady won a playoff game without Belichick. Go figure. He did it too with a stuffed turkey for a head coach.

I wonder who was more disappointed? Dungy or Belichick?

What percentage is Brady up to now for the Dynasty credit? 75-80%? The other 20% can generously be spread out. Bill included.

 

[carmelo15]

We cannot really debate this for another 4-5 years. By that time, both guys will have retired......BB I think is only in it to eclipse Shula's record....we need to give BB a chance to rebuild the team before we judge, IMO. Brady was able to slide into a loaded team.

So what he had no offseason and more importantly he’s 43 it’s not like he’s in his prime so judging Brady now is wrong anyways