Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Actual Pats Fan]

If Bill called a timeout and they had lost, you'd be blaming Bill for losing the game for another reason.

Not calling the timeout was nothing short of brilliant.

It's something that separates him, elevates him to HOF status.

All his career, he's been able to think and act objectively, practically and decisively in the highest pressure situations. I think appreciation for BB's greatness will grow over time, along with the same for Tom. Like Auerbach/Russell, Lombardi/Starr, Walsh/Montana.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I wasn't bashing Brady in that post. I was merely pointing to the obvious - that Brady makes mistakes, just like every QB in NFL history. The notion that Brady would have certainly audibled in that situation is ridiculous since we don't know what would have happened if the shoe were on the other foot. Brady did throw a pick earlier in that game in the end zone to Jeremy Lane. Maybe he would have done it again, maybe not.

Likely not. His intelligence is one of the things that separate him.

Russell didn't choke; he did what every other quarterback not named Brady would have done.

And I think it's funny he called you a troll. I'll chuckle every time I see you from now on

 

[Biffins]

And people think we’ll be getting players without overpaying there in for a surprise. Nobody wants to come here and deal with that bull **** if you not playing with Brady

Exactly. People were coming on below market contracts to play with Brady and go to the team that was always making deep post season runs. Not to put up with the grumpiest coach jn the game and an *******, while working on rebuilding project. Expect to pay top dollar.

 

[Biffins]

I really don't think there was another reason other than a disciplinary move. If it was another reason like say, Butler showing up high or drunk it would have leaked and we would have known what it was by now.

Like I said - if Bill really wanted to be disciplinary then play Butler, win the SB, and then leave him in Minneapolis when the team flies back. Not bench him and humiliate him on national TV and let Nick Foles of all people destroy a crippled defense in a SB. I'm sure Butler could have made one or two plays that the defense out there couldn't and it would have made a difference.

What I'd like to know is why Bill found it necessary to throw away a SB. I hope we find out one day. Sure Bill has made a mistake here and there with coaching as others have pointed out but every coach does. This was different. It was directly responsible for a loss in a freaking Super Bowl with no guarantee that the Patriots would ever go back to one. And like Spygate, it had a historical impact on this team. There was a reason why there was noise that Gronk was ready to retire right there. And neither Bill or Brady would ever admit it but I think that was the beginning of the end of the greatest partnership in sports history. When it happened I really wanted to give Bill the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore.

Exactly. Until then we thought what mattered to BB most was winning. After that bench we realized what mattered to BB most was his ego.

 

[Biffins]

We cannot really debate this for another 4-5 years. By that time, both guys will have retired......BB I think is only in it to eclipse Shula's record....we need to give BB a chance to rebuild the team before we judge, IMO. Brady was able to slide into a loaded team.

Brady slid into a team that had not been to playoffs in 13 years

 

[PatsWSB47]

I wasn't bashing Brady in that post. I was merely pointing to the obvious - that Brady makes mistakes, just like every QB in NFL history. The notion that Brady would have certainly audibled in that situation is ridiculous since we don't know what would have happened if the shoe were on the other foot. Brady did throw a pick earlier in that game in the end zone to Jeremy Lane. Maybe he would have done it again, maybe not.

LOL. We can review the non stop posting of his mistakes in these Brady threads by you if you'd like. Do you really think we havent noticed? The post was about Belichick's coaching decision. Honest to God you'd find a way to bring up a Brady slight if we were talking about the weather.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

LOL. We can review the non stop posting of his mistakes in these Brady threads by you if you'd like. Do you really think we havent noticed? The post was about Belichick's coaching decision. Honest to God you'd find a way to bring up a Brady slight if we were talking about the weather.

haha i was waiting for the sensitive one to respond

 

[PatsWSB47]

haha i was waiting for the sensitive one to respond

Cant deny it though can you?

 

[1960Pats]

What doesn't make sense about the Butler benching is that he was benched on defense but still played on special teams.

Craw, man.

Belichick was the only one who scouted him. Drafted him. Kept him with three other quarterbacks. Encouraged him to move up to #2 on the depth chart. Kept him as the starter when the inferior guy was activated (yeah I'm looking at you Raymond Berry). Stuck with him through some ups and downs (2002 and the'03 opener ain't exactly pretty). Stuck with him again when he wasn't doing so hot in '14.

Reasons for Dynasty:

1. Linda Evans

wait, I mean

1. Kraft.

Who hired Belichick despite most of his advisors insisting the guy was toxic and the Jets threw a hissy fit.

Then Belichick drafted the kid who was treated by everyone else like a drug addicted, locker room cancer, criminal zero with nothing to offer.

I'm not saying Tom sucks. Just that he was given the chances that a guy like Flutie never did.

Why not give credit to Billy Sullivan? Without him there's no Patriots for Kraft to buy and then hire Belichick to draft Brady. Maybe we could also give some credit for Tom's accomplishments to Lama Hunt. If not for his money there might not have been an AFL to begin with.

The most important reason Tom Brady had the success he had was because of Tom Brady and his upbringing. It also helped to have coaches who recognized how hard he worked and **** Rehbein pushing the Pats to draft him.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Wrong again. It was definitely a gamble that BB was willing to take. Seattle was expecting a timeout. BB didn't take it because he saw and liked the personnel they had on the field. "Malcolm Go" was to match their personnel. The "disarray" was him forcing their hand. You're right that Browner played a big part in it. But you are wrong that it was some kind of sheer luck. It was practiced and his actions during the game were recorded.

You can't even give him credit when it's due. Somehow you want to turn that into a lucky gaff because it doesn't fit your ridiculous narrative.

Nevertheless it was his decision and it worked so unfortunately for you, you can't add to your massive 8 long list of gaffs.

I choose to see the beauty.

 

[1960Pats]

2:30 mark, BB explains why he chose not to call the timeout. Saw uncertainly on the Seattle side on what they wanted to run, knew the Seahawks only had one timeout themselves and didn’t want to let them off the hook.

The best part about that sequence was how there was anxiety all around Bill and everyone panicking into his headset, and he calmly said how 'we got this'. That kind of calm cool is what helps make Bill the GOAT.

I have an exercise for everyone here. Let's try to list as many of Bill's on-field mistakes as we can. I'll start;
1) Benching Butler. If he did something that wrong then why did he play at all?
2) 4th and 2 at Indy. Not so much the call but what led up to the call. By passing on 3rd and 2 and using their last TO they kept the clock over 2 minutes and couldn't get a replay.
3) Sitting Welker for the first series in the playoff game against the Jets. I think that one took a little bit away from the team and they didn't recover.
4) I seem to vaguely remember him going very conservative at the end of one year and it might have cost them a better seed in the playoffs.
5) Sitting on the ball at the end of the half vs KC last year even though there was time to go for points. The fans voiced their opinion on that with boos that the mediots (and some fans here) claimed was the fans booing the players, which it was not.

If anyone has any others feel free to respond, but that's about it for me. That's 5 mistakes in 20 years. I can live with that. I was thinking of making another list of Bill's great moves, but I didn't have the time. The game is on in 5 hours.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

If anyone has any others feel free to respond, but that's about it for me. That's 5 mistakes in 20 years. I can live with that. I was thinking of making another list of Bill's great moves, but I didn't have the time. The game is on in 5 hours.

So, 5 mistakes, 6 super bowl rings. You're saying he's a little over .500.

 

[sb1]

Sign Baby Brady mentioned at the time that Butler was caught smoking weed the night before. I think he's got connections within the Pats organization, not sure though.

That IMO is not nearly a good enough reason to bench him in a Super Bowl and cripple his team’s chances to win the game.

 

[lancerman]

That IMO is not nearly a good enough reason to bench him in a Super Bowl and cripple his team’s chances to win the game.

The only way you justify benching Butler is if

1. He was absolutey dreadful in practice leading up to the game.

2. You didn't start him and were crushing the other team and didn't needhim.

Once it became apparent our defense couldn't stop anything, all options needed to be on the table. Though I can imagine their would be reservations in putting a dude who was pretty emotional and high strung on the sidelines in the game.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

That IMO is not nearly a good enough reason to bench him in a Super Bowl and cripple his team’s chances to win the game.

We're talking about the same coach who benched Welker for a quarter in a playoff game for his foot remarks towards Rex Ryan...

 

[Hyped]

Brady slid into a team that had not been to playoffs in 13 years

Not to diminish his accomplishments, but had they had a QB who ONLY threw 15 INT's....they would have made it last year, IMO.

15INTs is 15 offensive drives...the average NFL team scores about 2 points per drive (20 ppg/10 drives)...that's a differential of 30 points just from turnovers. The Bucs were 4-5 in games decided by a margin of one score in 2019 (including losses of 3 and 6 points in the final two games of 2019).

 

[crawhammer]

I wasn't bashing Brady in that post. I was merely pointing to the obvious - that Brady makes mistakes, just like every QB in NFL history. The notion that Brady would have certainly audibled in that situation is ridiculous since we don't know what would have happened if the shoe were on the other foot. Brady did throw a pick earlier in that game in the end zone to Jeremy Lane. Maybe he would have done it again, maybe not.

Brady's only the smartest, most experienced, and clutch postseason quarterback of all-time. And you somehow can't fathom that he would audible out of a bad look at the goal line?

 

[203Pat]

Not calling the timeout was nothing short of brilliant.

It's something that separates him, elevates him to HOF status.

All his career, he's been able to think and act objectively, practically and decisively in the highest pressure situations. I think appreciation for BB's greatness will grow over time, along with the same for Tom. Like Auerbach/Russell, Lombardi/Starr, Walsh/Montana.

It was brilliant because it worked. It would have been viewed much differently had we lost.

 

[crawhammer]

30 mark, BB explains why he chose not to call the timeout. Saw uncertainly on the Seattle side on what they wanted to run, knew the Seahawks only had one timeout themselves and didn’t want to let them off the hook.

Firstly I don't necessarily believe Belichick's explanation. Secondly I don't believe there was uncertainty on the Seahawks sideline. The entire coaching staff said they called the play that they wanted in that spot. Their offense was set up in plenty of time. Wilson should have recognized that NE countered with the right coverage and changed the play at the line of scrimmage or used the timeout. It was only the most important play of his career. The coaching staff trusted him in that spot and he choked.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The only way you justify benching Butler is if

1. He was absolutey dreadful in practice leading up to the game.

2. You didn't start him and were crushing the other team and didn't needhim.

Once it became apparent our defense couldn't stop anything, all options needed to be on the table. Though I can imagine their would be reservations in putting a dude who was pretty emotional and high strung on the sidelines in the game.

The official statement was that the personnel on the field gave the team the best opportunity to win the game. If there's a rumor that it's because he got busted smoking pot the night before, that's fine. I don't much think the "best opportunity to win the game" was solely a statement that he was just not good right then.

also for the general good of the order, @1960Pats @sb1 @whoever said he smoked weed @whoever else is back down this rabbit hole on any side... Here's a contemporaneous article...

Malcolm Butler of the Patriots Denies Wild Super Bowl Week Rumors (Published 2018)

Butler’s absence was a hot topic after the game. The official story from Belichick, and several players, was that Eric Rowe had been informed shortly before kickoff that he would start in Butler’s place. Rowe, who is younger, taller and heavier than Butler, could have been tapped because of Nick Foles’s reliance on throwing to his big tight ends. But the Eagles got plenty of production out of smaller, faster wide receivers, such as Nelson Agholor and Torrey Smith, which Butler presumably could have helped stop.

So the guy who knew enough to "make" Butler -- along w/Butler's execution, let's be fair -- also sat Butler. At least according to the official story, BB sat him because he wanted to take away the tight ends, against whom he thought he had a better shot w/Rowe.

In SB XXXVI, the game plan was to take away Faulk. It's widely thought to have been brilliant. The pats were one of the most prohibitive 'dogs in Super Bowl history. BB looked at what he'd seen of the Rams all season, including during the Pats game earlier in the year, and he tried to figure out who you take away. His decision was you take away Marshall Faulk, because SO much of the Rams offense went through Faulk, despite their other aerial weapons (let's not classify Marshall as a ground piece only.) It worked. He was smart and he made a SB winner out of a buncha nobodies and a game manager stand-in QB. What's the story line if Ricky Proehl or Torry Holt gets another couple TDs? To be fair... that the Pats had no chance, no matter what BB did.

Woulda coulda shoulda is tricky. This whole conversation points to that same conclusion. What if he'd played Butler and Foles just lit us up via the the tight ends? I'm not saying everything BB did came out right. I'm just saying he does things you wouldn't expect, so when he fails it's a "blunder" or "arrogant."

That said, 6 rings (not counting the D coordinator ring w NY) keeps biasing me in favor of BB. He's not invincible. Clearly lots of "fans" are all psyched to say "A ha! Now we see the unmasking of the "great man!" (& I know many of us back down this rabbit hole are saying the same thing as me here, so nothing personal to anybody I @'d.)

I'm giving it a little time myself, and not taking chatter and rumor to be the inside scoop, that's all.