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Debate Brady vs Belichick?


With Brady leading his new team into the postseason, his old team is floundering pathetically and will miss the postseason for only the second time in the past 18 seasons. The two seasons missing the postseason, 2008 and 2020, no Brady.

The main reason the Patriots will not make the postseason this year is the significant dropoff at the quarterback position. Like all of the greatest of all time, Brady makes everyone around him better, in fact much better, including Belichick.

Belichick without Brady:
8 Seasons
61-71 record
0 division titles
1 playoff win

Belichick with Brady:
18 seasons
219-63 record
17 division titles
12 Conference Championship appearances
9 Super Bowl appearances
6 Super Bowl titles

Belichick, often referred to as a genius, in reality is just another guy, an ordinary coach who looks great when coupled with a legendary talent. The numbers, the facts, bear it out. And it's not even close. More important to the Patriots dynasty? Brady by a wide margin.
Craw, man.

Belichick was the only one who scouted him. Drafted him. Kept him with three other quarterbacks. Encouraged him to move up to #2 on the depth chart. Kept him as the starter when the inferior guy was activated (yeah I'm looking at you Raymond Berry). Stuck with him through some ups and downs (2002 and the'03 opener ain't exactly pretty). Stuck with him again when he wasn't doing so hot in '14.

Reasons for Dynasty:

1. Linda Evans

wait, I mean

1. Kraft.

Who hired Belichick despite most of his advisors insisting the guy was toxic and the Jets threw a hissy fit.

Then Belichick drafted the kid who was treated by everyone else like a drug addicted, locker room cancer, criminal zero with nothing to offer.

I'm not saying Tom sucks. Just that he was given the chances that a guy like Flutie never did.
 
What's your point? Bill's untouchable in your world? Too bad, get over it, I'm bringing up obviously questionable decisions by Belichick that have significantly impacted the overcome of entire seasons. They're worth discussing. Create an In Bill We Trust thread and see where that takes you.


You need a dictionary bub. It's not conjecture to say Belichick benched Butler for a disciplinary reason. We know Butler was dressed and played one ST snap so we know he was healthy enough to play. We know Butler went from 100% of defensive snaps to 0%. We know Eric Rowe played his highest percentage of snaps for the season by far. We know Rowe played incompetently in the Super Bowl as did Richards and Bademosi. We know the pass defense got shredded and gave up 41 points. We know despite a historic output from the Patriots offense, they lost the game. So it stands to reason that the benching of Butler led to the Patriots losing the Super Bowl.

Whatever the reason was for disciplining Butler, we know it didn't warrant his release from the team or being entirely inactive for the game. We know Belichick had Butler at his disposal to insert him into the game at anytime yet he chose not to despite the disaster unfolding before him. We know Belichick intentionally made a decision (benching Butler), despite having an alternative (playing Butler), and it blew up in his face. For that he deserves to be roundly criticized at least.


I think Brady justifiably got tired of Belichick's nonsense. Brady's also questioned the Butler benching, if somewhat discreetly, but it was clear he didn't agree with it. Belichick also was failing to surround Brady with talent, which happened repeatedly throughout Brady's years in NE. Belichick was ****ing Brady around with the contracts and once Brady asked for the 'no franchise' clause it was apparent he would be leaving the team. Had Belichick not greased the skids for Brady's departure, I think he would have chosen to end his career as a Patriot. He clearly has plenty of football still left in him which Belichick totally miscalculated. For that Belichick deserves to be roundly criticized as well.


It's not nitpicking. These are high profile decisions that cost the team games and rings. It's all fair game. It unfolds before us, we see the consequences of his decisions, and we draw our conclusions. Disagreement is inevitable. I don't get the resistance to an honest debate.

They got tired of each other.

Bill surrounded Brady with enough weapons to get to 9 Super Bowls. Last season he signed Antonio Brown and if he would have just stayed off of twitter they would have had a good shot at a first round bye.

The Butler benching? I'm not sure what happened. I'm sure BB would like to have some decisions back. Maybe that's one of them. But firing him because of it is ridiculous.

You're nitpicking. You've chosen mistakes that may have cost them one ring and are ignoring the decisions that got them six.
 
Hello all. New to the forum, but not new to being a Pats fan. From my perspective, Brady was the main reason we won 6 Super Bowls and Belichick is a distant second. The current state of the Patriots is depressing, so just want to bring up one game to make me feel a bit better about Belichick. And that game is the Super Bowl against the Seahawks. Three things:

1) Malcolm Butler was a free agent signed by Belichick before the season. Good move.
2) Heading into the SB, and as documented in one of those SB videos, the Patriots' coaches scouted the Seahawks and knew the passing play they liked to run on the goal line. Leading up to the SB, they ran that play over and over in practice and coached up Butler on how to respond to that play. It was not dumb luck that Butler intercepted that ball. They prepared him for that play.
3) And finally, as the Seahawks got ready for that goal line play, I remember yelling at the TV to call timeout. My thinking was that we need to give Brady 45 seconds or so to get a game-tying field goal after the Seahawks scored a TD. When they didn't call a timeout, I remember thinking the SB loss would be on Belichick. But Belichick saw the Seahawks sideline was in disarray and did not call a timeout. He knew they had to run a passing play since the clock was running. His defense was ready for the passing play and Butler made the play.

While we would not have been in that SB, or in that position to win without Brady, that final sequence was a great moment for Belichick.
 
Hello all. New to the forum, but not new to being a Pats fan. From my perspective, Brady was the main reason we won 6 Super Bowls and Belichick is a distant second. The current state of the Patriots is depressing, so just want to bring up one game to make me feel a bit better about Belichick. And that game is the Super Bowl against the Seahawks. Three things:

1) Malcolm Butler was a free agent signed by Belichick before the season. Good move.
2) Heading into the SB, and as documented in one of those SB videos, the Patriots' coaches scouted the Seahawks and knew the passing play they liked to run on the goal line. Leading up to the SB, they ran that play over and over in practice and coached up Butler on how to respond to that play. It was not dumb luck that Butler intercepted that ball. They prepared him for that play.
3) And finally, as the Seahawks got ready for that goal line play, I remember yelling at the TV to call timeout. My thinking was that we need to give Brady 45 seconds or so to get a game-tying field goal after the Seahawks scored a TD. When they didn't call a timeout, I remember thinking the SB loss would be on Belichick. But Belichick saw the Seahawks sideline was in disarray and did not call a timeout. He knew they had to run a passing play since the clock was running. His defense was ready for the passing play and Butler made the play.

While we would not have been in that SB, or in that position to win without Brady, that final sequence was a great moment for Belichick.
Nice reply. It's a good reminder of how easy it is to overlook good coaching on the way to lambasting what the fan's convinced is a blunder.

Seattle's coach/NE's old coach, of course, was the focus of "poor coaching" conversations in the Seattle SB.

It's an uphill battle to even mumble out a heartfelt "Well, truthfully, we'll never know the full story on the Butler benching." I mean, that scapegoatable decision is just too much fanbait.

It's like the "OMG why didn't they give it to Beast Mode" Seattle equivalent -- the reality is, Beast Mode was 1 for 5 in that situation. It certainly seems like the better course of action in hindsight. Everything Coach Carroll weighed all added up to the decision to pass. He called the pass play he was comfortable with.

And the magic part was, the Pats had practiced against that rub route. They knew it when they saw it. They KNEW how to beat it... and THEN... and THEN... Butler executed (and we loved him for it). The perfect flip side reminder... benching Butler makes you the goat, coaching him up and making him what he was in the Seattle game makes you the GOAT.

Now, Brady's different from Butler, he's consistently excellent. Is he that without BB, or is he the guy holding Brian Griese's clipboard? Imunno. I don't live in that quantum superpositioned reality. Or more accurately, any of those superpositioned realities. I live in this one, vid da 6 Lombardies and da Belichick/Brady decades. I like it.
 
Craw, man.

Belichick was the only one who scouted him. Drafted him. Kept him with three other quarterbacks. Encouraged him to move up to #2 on the depth chart. Kept him as the starter when the inferior guy was activated (yeah I'm looking at you Raymond Berry). Stuck with him through some ups and downs (2002 and the'03 opener ain't exactly pretty). Stuck with him again when he wasn't doing so hot in '14.

Reasons for Dynasty:

1. Linda Evans

wait, I mean

1. Kraft.

Who hired Belichick despite most of his advisors insisting the guy was toxic and the Jets threw a hissy fit.

Then Belichick drafted the kid who was treated by everyone else like a drug addicted, locker room cancer, criminal zero with nothing to offer.

I'm not saying Tom sucks. Just that he was given the chances that a guy like Flutie never did.
Flutie had his chances in the NFL. He registered 66 career starts. His time with the Patriots was a disaster. He wasn't any good either after returning from the CFL. Not an NFL caliber quarterback.

Every NFL team, including the Patriots, was wrong about Brady. When you hit on the G.O.A.T. in the 6th round it's dumb luck. Thereafter Belichick may have recognized Brady's potential but he signed Bledsoe to an absurd contract heading into the 2001 season. Once Bledsoe got hurt and Brady hit the field there was no turning back from that.

Brady led the NFL in touchdown passes for the 2002 season. I'm with you on the '03 opener... one of Brady's worst games. He more than made up for it the rest of that season.
 
Hello all. New to the forum, but not new to being a Pats fan. From my perspective, Brady was the main reason we won 6 Super Bowls and Belichick is a distant second. The current state of the Patriots is depressing, so just want to bring up one game to make me feel a bit better about Belichick. And that game is the Super Bowl against the Seahawks. Three things:

1) Malcolm Butler was a free agent signed by Belichick before the season. Good move.
2) Heading into the SB, and as documented in one of those SB videos, the Patriots' coaches scouted the Seahawks and knew the passing play they liked to run on the goal line. Leading up to the SB, they ran that play over and over in practice and coached up Butler on how to respond to that play. It was not dumb luck that Butler intercepted that ball. They prepared him for that play.
3) And finally, as the Seahawks got ready for that goal line play, I remember yelling at the TV to call timeout. My thinking was that we need to give Brady 45 seconds or so to get a game-tying field goal after the Seahawks scored a TD. When they didn't call a timeout, I remember thinking the SB loss would be on Belichick. But Belichick saw the Seahawks sideline was in disarray and did not call a timeout. He knew they had to run a passing play since the clock was running. His defense was ready for the passing play and Butler made the play.

While we would not have been in that SB, or in that position to win without Brady, that final sequence was a great moment for Belichick.
Yeah I don't buy the BS about the 'no timeout.' The Seahawks sideline was in disarray? That's a crock. The Seahawks had the play ready... friggin Wilson drilled the ball directly into Butler's chest. Wilson never took enough heat for not recognizing the Patriots had the play figured out from the jump. Brady would have audibled into another play... not in a million opportunities would Brady have thrown that pick.

Belichick not using a timeout there was asinine. The pick wiped out what would have been an all-time blunder. Seriously, does anyone truly believe Wilson threw that pick because the Seahawks sideline was supposedly in disarray? Ridiculous.

Otherwise I agree Belichick had the defense coached up to defend that specific play. Obvious example of his preparation paying off in a big moment. Kudos to Browner for blowing up the play. He and Revis were fun to watch for that one season.
 
Yeah I don't buy the BS about the 'no timeout.' The Seahawks sideline was in disarray? That's a crock. The Seahawks had the play ready... friggin Wilson drilled the ball directly into Butler's chest. Wilson never took enough heat for not recognizing the Patriots had the play figured out from the jump. Brady would have audibled into another play... not in a million opportunities would Brady have thrown that pick.

Belichick not using a timeout there was asinine. The pick wiped out what would have been an all-time blunder. Seriously, does anyone truly believe Wilson threw that pick because the Seahawks sideline was supposedly in disarray? Ridiculous.

What a dumb statement. Bill didn't call a timeout because the Pats put in the 3 corner goal line defense for the first time all season and didn't want Seattle to adjust unless they took a timeout on their own. Brady would have audible out of it? As if the guy never threw an INT in the super bowl. :rolleyes:
 
What a dumb statement. Bill didn't call a timeout because the Pats put in the 3 corner goal line defense for the first time all season and didn't want Seattle to adjust unless they took a timeout on their own. Brady would have audible out of it? As if the guy never threw an INT in the super bowl. :rolleyes:
I agree on the timeout but I also always wondered why Wilson never takes heat for essentially throwing away the SB. It was a bad pass and an even better play by Butler. Also, why do you feel the need to bash Brady to show posters up?
 
I agree on the timeout but I also always wondered why Wilson never takes heat for essentially throwing away the SB. It was a bad pass and an even better play by Butler. Also, why do you feel the need to bash Brady to show posters up?

Because he made his comment to trash Bill and acts as if Bill got lucky or something without calling the timeout. Then he says Wilson made a mistake which Brady would have audibled out of just to prop Brady up over BIll.

WIlson doesn't get as criticized because the INT was overshadowed by Carroll/Beville's call and Butler made a great play. Wilson followed the play call to a tee but didn't know that Butler knew it was coming. If Butler didn't know where the ball was going, it would have been a touchdown. It's not the case where Wilson didn't throw the ball to where the receiver wasn't going and the ball got intercepted. He made perfefgt pass to the receiver...the problem for him was the corner was there too.
 
Yeah I don't buy the BS about the 'no timeout.' The Seahawks sideline was in disarray? That's a crock. The Seahawks had the play ready... friggin Wilson drilled the ball directly into Butler's chest. Wilson never took enough heat for not recognizing the Patriots had the play figured out from the jump. Brady would have audibled into another play... not in a million opportunities would Brady have thrown that pick.

Belichick not using a timeout there was asinine. The pick wiped out what would have been an all-time blunder. Seriously, does anyone truly believe Wilson threw that pick because the Seahawks sideline was supposedly in disarray? Ridiculous.

Otherwise I agree Belichick had the defense coached up to defend that specific play. Obvious example of his preparation paying off in a big moment. Kudos to Browner for blowing up the play. He and Revis were fun to watch for that one season.

Wrong again. It was definitely a gamble that BB was willing to take. Seattle was expecting a timeout. BB didn't take it because he saw and liked the personnel they had on the field. "Malcolm Go" was to match their personnel. The "disarray" was him forcing their hand. You're right that Browner played a big part in it. But you are wrong that it was some kind of sheer luck. It was practiced and his actions during the game were recorded.

You can't even give him credit when it's due. Somehow you want to turn that into a lucky gaff because it doesn't fit your ridiculous narrative.

Nevertheless it was his decision and it worked so unfortunately for you, you can't add to your massive 8 long list of gaffs.
 
Because he made his comment to trash Bill and acts as if Bill got lucky or something without calling the timeout. Then he says Wilson made a mistake which Brady would have audibled out of just to prop Brady up over BIll.

WIlson doesn't get as criticized because the INT was overshadowed by Carroll/Beville's call and Butler made a great play. Wilson followed the play call to a tee but didn't know that Butler knew it was coming. If Butler didn't know where the ball was going, it would have been a touchdown. It's not the case where Wilson didn't throw the ball to where the receiver wasn't going and the ball got intercepted. He made perfefgt pass to the receiver...the problem for him was the corner was there too.
What does any of that have to do with you doubling down and bashing Brady? Nevermind. So long as you know you are a troll just like the other guy. The lack of timeout was all out big balls by Bill and that was possibly the best single play in NE history. I didn't mind the play call at all. You can't throw the ball there on a slant like that. I like the defense stopping Lynch but we will never know and frankly who cares they won. **** Seattle.
 
Wrong again. It was definitely a gamble that BB was willing to take. Seattle was expecting a timeout. BB didn't take it because he saw and liked the personnel they had on the field. "Malcolm Go" was to match their personnel. The "disarray" was him forcing their hand. You're right that Browner played a big part in it. But you are wrong that it was some kind of sheer luck. It was practiced and his actions during the game were recorded.

You can't even give him credit when it's due. Somehow you want to turn that into a lucky gaff because it doesn't fit your ridiculous narrative.

Nevertheless it was his decision and it worked so unfortunately for you, you can't add to your massive 8 long list of gaffs.
You're confusing my comments. I didn't say the pick was sheer luck. I gave Belichick credit for having his defense ready for that play call and Browner and Butler credit for executing their assignments.

Wilson choked. The play got blown up right in front of his face yet he drilled the pass directly into Butler's chest. The pick erased what would have been a huge gaff by Belichick not calling a timeout to preserve time for the offense if the Seahawks had scored.

I don't believe the Seahawks sideline was in disarray. Where's the evidence to support that? They got the play call in, their offense got lined up, and they ran it. Wilson choked. The coaching staff trusted him in a big moment and he blew it.

Your suggesting I'm reflexively discrediting Belichick at every turn is incorrect. I think he's an exceptional defensive coordinator. I also think he's highly motivated to win but he's become increasingly rigid in his desire to win in such a way that best suits his personal agenda.

I'm also certain Belichick helped Brady along in maximizing his potential through the 2005 season. Thereafter Brady ascended to G.O.A.T. status mostly of his own doing. There were many seasons of revolving personnel and declining defensive output. Brady carried the team on his back for many seasons. They finally broke through their Super Bowl drought in large part due to Brady's brilliance (SB 49 & 51). Belichick f*cked Brady over in SB 52. Brady's 2018 season is underrated but Belichick gets more credit for the Super Bowl 53 win.
 
What a dumb statement. Bill didn't call a timeout because the Pats put in the 3 corner goal line defense for the first time all season and didn't want Seattle to adjust unless they took a timeout on their own. Brady would have audible out of it? As if the guy never threw an INT in the super bowl. :rolleyes:
Belichick should have called a timeout there. Not doing so was idiotic and he was fortunate Wilson choked. But as I already said, he had the defense ready to defend that particular play call. Good prep, good call, great execution by the players, with an assist from Wilson for the choke.

And no, Brady never threw a game ending pick in a Super Bowl. In fact he led game winning drives in all 6 Super Bowl victories and had them in the lead in the other 3.
 
What does any of that have to do with you doubling down and bashing Brady? Nevermind. So long as you know you are a troll just like the other guy. The lack of timeout was all out big balls by Bill and that was possibly the best single play in NE history. I didn't mind the play call at all. You can't throw the ball there on a slant like that. I like the defense stopping Lynch but we will never know and frankly who cares they won. **** Seattle.

I wasn't bashing Brady in that post. I was merely pointing to the obvious - that Brady makes mistakes, just like every QB in NFL history. The notion that Brady would have certainly audibled in that situation is ridiculous since we don't know what would have happened if the shoe were on the other foot. Brady did throw a pick earlier in that game in the end zone to Jeremy Lane. Maybe he would have done it again, maybe not.
 
Belichick should have called a timeout there. Not doing so was idiotic and he was fortunate Wilson choked. But as I already said, he had the defense ready to defend that particular play call. Good prep, good call, great execution by the players, with an assist from Wilson for the choke.

And no, Brady never threw a game ending pick in a Super Bowl. In fact he led game winning drives in all 6 Super Bowl victories and had them in the lead in the other 3.

If Bill called a timeout and they had lost, you'd be blaming Bill for losing the game for another reason.
 
Belichick should have called a timeout there. Not doing so was idiotic and he was fortunate Wilson choked. But as I already said, he had the defense ready to defend that particular play call. Good prep, good call, great execution by the players, with an assist from Wilson for the choke.

And no, Brady never threw a game ending pick in a Super Bowl. In fact he led game winning drives in all 6 Super Bowl victories and had them in the lead in the other 3.


2:30 mark, BB explains why he chose not to call the timeout. Saw uncertainly on the Seattle side on what they wanted to run, knew the Seahawks only had one timeout themselves and didn’t want to let them off the hook.
 
Belichick should have called a timeout there. Not doing so was idiotic and he was fortunate Wilson choked. But as I already said, he had the defense ready to defend that particular play call. Good prep, good call, great execution by the players, with an assist from Wilson for the choke.

And no, Brady never threw a game ending pick in a Super Bowl. In fact he led game winning drives in all 6 Super Bowl victories and had them in the lead in the other 3.

Wrong again.


How is not calling a timeout "idiotic" when it resulted in a Super Bowl win???

Your inability to credit BB with a great call is telling.

Wilson's throw did not hit Butler in the pads. He took it just as he had practiced.
 
I’ve heard many arguments for years about the timeout against Seattle. From a clock management perspective, it was absolutely insane. I’m glad it all worked out, but there is no way that was a good risk:reward there.

Not all decisions are good ones, even if they work out well.

Or take the famous 4th and 2 call against the Colts in 2009. I’ll go to my grave believing it was the right call, even though it didn’t work out. Teams should go for it on 4th down more than they do. In that situation, analytics supported the call. Putting the game in the hands if Brady (instead of Manning) supported the call. Momentum (Colts unstoppable at that point and not wanting to give them the ball back) supported the call. In fact, the play itself even worked despite a bad home field ref spot.

Point being, Belichick is often criticized for 4th and 2 but shouldn’t be. Likewise. he is praised for the Butler pick, but it’s a very tough sell. That amount of time run off the clock for an extremely unlikely turnover? I don’t even think Belichick or the Patriots were thinking turnover. Butler had never picked one off in practice, knowing it was coming. Had this play resulted in anything other than a turnover, it was a terrible clock decision, one that would be mocked forever if by a lesser coach.

To me, it’s like in an alternative reality, let’s suppose that Brady leads that last TD drive to beat the Eagles and the Patriots win 39-38 to win SB52. Was Belichick a genius for benching Butler? Would we be thinking in that scenario, that the Patriots would have allowed 50 points with Butler, that it was all part of the master plan by infallible Bill? We tend to look at decisions through the lens of results. The Butler benching was a bad decision, and it would have been a bad decision if they’d won.

Bill is a darn good coach and strategist; the deification of him gets to be a bit much. Bill has done so many awesome things but the really egregious decisions here, I think, are mostly fair. We don’t need to come up with a massive alegebra equation to justify them and try desperately to maintain a narrative of infallibility and clairvoyance. Benching Butler was a big mistake. Not calling timeout versus Seattle was not a good decision. Blowing the 2015 season was absolutely asinine. But overall, so many great decisions far and away outweigh the bad ones.
 
I’ve heard many arguments for years about the timeout against Seattle. From a clock management perspective, it was absolutely insane. I’m glad it all worked out, but there is no way that was a good risk:reward there.

Not all decisions are good ones, even if they work out well.

Or take the famous 4th and 2 call against the Colts in 2009. I’ll go to my grave believing it was the right call, even though it didn’t work out. Teams should go for it on 4th down more than they do. In that situation, analytics supported the call. Putting the game in the hands if Brady (instead of Manning) supported the call. Momentum (Colts unstoppable at that point and not wanting to give them the ball back) supported the call. In fact, the play itself even worked despite a bad home field ref spot.

Point being, Belichick is often criticized for 4th and 2 but shouldn’t be. Likewise. he is praised for the Butler pick, but it’s a very tough sell. That amount of time run off the clock for an extremely unlikely turnover? I don’t even think Belichick or the Patriots were thinking turnover. Butler had never picked one off in practice, knowing it was coming. Had this play resulted in anything other than a turnover, it was a terrible clock decision, one that would be mocked forever if by a lesser coach.

To me, it’s like in an alternative reality, let’s suppose that Brady leads that last TD drive to beat the Eagles and the Patriots win 39-38 to win SB52. Was Belichick a genius for benching Butler? Would we be thinking in that scenario, that the Patriots would have allowed 50 points with Butler, that it was all part of the master plan by infallible Bill? We tend to look at decisions through the lens of results. The Butler benching was a bad decision, and it would have been a bad decision if they’d won.

Bill is a darn good coach and strategist; the deification of him gets to be a bit much. Bill has done so many awesome things but the really egregious decisions here, I think, are mostly fair. We don’t need to come up with a massive alegebra equation to justify them and try desperately to maintain a narrative of infallibility and clairvoyance. Benching Butler was a big mistake. Not calling timeout versus Seattle was not a good decision. Blowing the 2015 season was absolutely asinine. But overall, so many great decisions far and away outweigh the bad ones.

Sorry brother I disagree. He saw something and went for it. It was a great call. If you acknowledge that they prepared for the play and acknowledge that they were ready for the play then how can you not acknowledge that he went for it? He did and won the gamble.
 
Sorry brother I disagree. He saw something and went for it. It was a great call. If you acknowledge that they prepared for the play and acknowledge that they were ready for the play then how can you not acknowledge that he went for it? He did and won the gamble.

Turnovers are incredibly unlikely at the one yard line. It was the only interception all season from that distance.

There was literally a full minute left when Lynch was tackled at the one and thirty seconds left when Wilson took the snap.

The Patriots had two timeouts left.

They essentially gave away their chance to score in response to a Seattle touchdown, even though Brady had just led two scoring drives and Wilson had driven 80 yards for a TD in the final :30 in the first half.

You cannot count on an interception there. Even if Butler had made a fantastic play and broken up the pass, it would have been a pyrrhic victory.

I understand your point, and I think it comes down to how much we both believe in Belichick. Where you see him making a bold decision, I see it as a reckless risk. Glad for both our sake it worked though.
 


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