Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Tony2046]

lol what ya he is and Brady is the GOAT the difference is that big oh btw there coach is top 5 in the league this whole time so ya to coaching matters

No the difference isn't that great but the combination of TB and BB vs Brees and SP is. That's the point.

 

[Tony2046]

We're back to Malcom Butler obvious blunder? Awesome!

Here's something to consider. Billy is known for treating everybody the same right? What if Tom was not "locked in" during the week, would Bill bench him too? Would Josh McDaniels take the gutless Matt Patricia route and say "there wasn't enough packages?" Yeah those are rhetorical questions.

Here's another rhetorical question. Would you rather take the field with your STARTING CB of 3 years, who is known for getting you big plays (especially the one that ended the 10 year Super Bowl winning drought as they were one yard away from another epic 3rd straight Super Bowl collapse) or take the field with the worst rated CB that year (Rowe), the worst safety of all time (Jordan Richards) and the other stiff Johnson Bademosi?

And why didn't Chandler Jones get benched against the Chiefs for getting high as kite, praying a parking lot shirtless and released by the hospital days before the game?

So for this one apparent gaff BB should be fired? Should be considered a fraud? All of the decisions he's made before and after Butler don't count? Because that's the argument.

I won't say that BB hasn't made mistakes but I will say that no other coach coupled with Brady would have netted us fans with an unprecedented amount of success.

 

[crawhammer]

Sure, I'll answer your question: BB had what he felt was a good reason for not playing Butler that, as a fan, I was not privy to. BB knows more about football and the inner workings of his team than I do. So while I might have questions or even doubts from afar about what happened, I defer to and trust in the judgment of a man who to that point had delivered five Super Bowl titles with the same team.

That's it? You're deferring to Belichick's judgment? I thought you said before that Belichick has made mistakes and he doesn't deserve unconditional acceptance. Yet you can't even acknowledged the most obviously ridiculous and detrimental coaching decision he ever made. And you're questioning my credibility?

Belichick benched a pro bowl caliber CB who had started and played nearly 100% of the defensive snaps for 3 years. Benched him for the entire game while his now disheveled secondary got completely dismantled by a backup quarterback. In the f'ing Super Bowl!

Butler was healthy, he was dressed for the game, and he even registered one special teams snap. Belichick always says "do your job" and "he does what's best for the team." He did neither that night. His job is to coach to win the game. Not flush the Super Bowl down the toilet over disciplining a player for an unspecified transgression.

Prime example of Belichick's arrogance standing in his way. He actually believed he could coach up a bunch of stiffs on the fly. Eric Rowe was a total disaster and completed ill-equipped to handle his highest snap count and percentage of the season. He played 95% of the defensive snaps in the Super Bowl; he had played over 80% just one time previously all season. Jordan Richards and Johnson Bademosi were equally horrendous. Bademosi hadn't even registered a single snap in the postseason until the Super Bowl. Whatever point Belichick was trying to make with benching Butler, he should have been able to recognize by halftime that it was completely undercutting the culmination of what his team had worked toward for an entire season. The stubborn oaf just couldn't change course.

 

[crawhammer]

So for this one apparent gaff BB should be fired? Should be considered a fraud? All of the decisions he's made before and after Butler don't count? Because that's the argument.

That's not the argument, halfwit. Belichick's history is littered with gaffs. But that's lost on you. Try to follow along... you're so keen on TB + BB = dynasty but we know BB - TB = 0 while TB - BB = TB still performing at an elite level while leading another team into postseason. That's quite a gaff, swopping out Brady for a big lummox like Newton.

 

[Wordsmyth]

I wanted him fired after Super Bowl 52. That was the very last straw for me.

Let be clear about this, sincerely, I think Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports. And until he proves he can win without Brady, which he has never done, I am going state my case.

Belichick f'd over Brady a number of times... revolving doors at the skill positions... Brady had one elite WR in 18 seasons, Moss, and that was for 2 seasons only. How many crappy draft picks and has-been veteran receivers has Belichick dumped on Brady? It's ridiculous.

Brady made his slot receivers look like gold because he's so adept at those short to intermediate throws into tight windows. I don't think he's thrown an inaccurate pass to a back yet either.

For some unknown reason, after Brady went off for 500 yards in a Super Bowl, Belichick started treating him like a declining game manager while ****ing him around with his contracts. I'm surprised Brady stuck around as long as he did.

But yeah, I was losing my mind during the 2015 season that Belichick f'd up completely with horribly bad decisions. He blew at least three games which cost them the 1 seed and a trip to the Super Bowl. I would have been ok with his firing then but after he benched Malcolm Butler in Super Bowl 52 that was absolutely it.

As far as his replacement, that would depend on when theoretically he was fired. If you're talking now, then I'm more concerned with who's handling the personnel decisions because the roster is a complete mess. I'd prefer the individual who made it so not also be tasked with fixing it.

You are a flipping moron.

 

[Tunescribe]

That's it? You're deferring to Belichick's judgment? I thought you said before that Belichick has made mistakes and he doesn't deserve unconditional acceptance. Yet you can't even acknowledged the most obviously ridiculous and detrimental coaching decision he ever made. And you're questioning my credibility?

You are assuming you actually have credibility to question. Each and every post in this idiotic thread you started drives home the fact that you mistakenly believe you "know" things that are "obvious." Sorry, but your conjectures aren't flying too well. Let's try this: report back when BB explains to you why he benched Butler and we'll discuss it. Who knows, maybe he'll admit that between winning his fifth and sixth Super Bowls he had an uncharacteristically massive and "detrimental" brain fart that cost the Patriots another title. Or perhaps he'll astound you by breaching confidentiality with a perfectly logical explanation to which you'll respond, "Gee whiz, I never thought of that!"

 

[carmelo15]

Nope. Brady needed BB. BB needed Brady. It was an incredible twenty year ride.

Brady is winning multiple championships with Thomas/Peyton and that defense

 

[Kontradiction]

Not ridiculous at all because we don't have the necessary information. The difference between you and I on this is you presume to "know" and comfortably sit in judgment. You might be right but from my perspective BB deserves the benefit of a doubt.

How do you know we don’t have the necessary information? Why shouldn’t all of BB’s decisions be weighed on their own merit?

 

[Tunescribe]

How do you know we don’t have the necessary information? Why shouldn’t all of BB’s decisions be weighed on their own merit?

We don't have full context on BB's Butler decision because BB hasn't shared it publicly. Anything short of that is conjecture. I can't think of a specific example at the moment but I've questioned decisions he has made in the past and then changed my mind when more information came out. But sure, you can weigh things on the merits as you see them and issue verdicts, it's what fans do.

 

[Tony2046]

Brady is winning multiple championships with Thomas/Peyton and that defense

Six? More than anyone else ever? Sustained success over twenty years? I disagree.

 

[sb1]

We don't have full context on BB's Butler decision because BB hasn't shared it publicly. Anything short of that is conjecture. I can't think of a specific example at the moment but I've questioned decisions he has made in the past and then changed my mind when more information came out. But sure, you can weigh things on the merits as you see them and issue verdicts, it's what fans do.

I really don't think there was another reason other than a disciplinary move. If it was another reason like say, Butler showing up high or drunk it would have leaked and we would have known what it was by now.

Like I said - if Bill really wanted to be disciplinary then play Butler, win the SB, and then leave him in Minneapolis when the team flies back. Not bench him and humiliate him on national TV and let Nick Foles of all people destroy a crippled defense in a SB. I'm sure Butler could have made one or two plays that the defense out there couldn't and it would have made a difference.

What I'd like to know is why Bill found it necessary to throw away a SB. I hope we find out one day. Sure Bill has made a mistake here and there with coaching as others have pointed out but every coach does. This was different. It was directly responsible for a loss in a freaking Super Bowl with no guarantee that the Patriots would ever go back to one. And like Spygate, it had a historical impact on this team. There was a reason why there was noise that Gronk was ready to retire right there. And neither Bill or Brady would ever admit it but I think that was the beginning of the end of the greatest partnership in sports history. When it happened I really wanted to give Bill the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore.

 

[sb1]

Brady is winning multiple championships with Thomas/Peyton and that defense

I think Brady could have won with guys like Reid and Coughlin too. Maybe even Tomlin. 6 is doubtful but a couple for sure.

 

[Tunescribe]

I really don't think there was another reason other than a disciplinary move. If it was another reason like say, Butler showing up high or drunk it would have leaked and we would have known what it was by now.

Like I said - if Bill really wanted to be disciplinary then play Butler, win the SB, and then leave him in Minneapolis when the team flies back. Not bench him and humiliate him on national TV and let Nick Foles of all people destroy a crippled defense in a SB. I'm sure Butler could have made one or two plays that the defense out there couldn't and it would have made a difference.

What I'd like to know is why Bill found it necessary to throw away a SB. I hope we find out one day. Sure Bill has made a mistake here and there with coaching as others have pointed out but every coach does. This was different. It was directly responsible for a loss in a freaking Super Bowl with no guarantee that the Patriots would ever go back to one. And like Spygate, it had a historical impact on this team. There was a reason why there was noise that Gronk was ready to retire right there. And neither Bill or Brady would ever admit it but I think that was the beginning of the end of the greatest partnership in sports history. When it happened I really wanted to give Bill the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore.

You're assuming a lot of things that certainly seem plausible from the limited info we have but the fact remains it's limited. Personally, I believe nothing is more important to BB than winning football games so I give him the benefit of a doubt that he had good reason for benching Butler. That's my opinion.

 

[Tony2046]

That's not the argument, halfwit. Belichick's history is littered with gaffs. But that's lost on you. Try to follow along... you're so keen on TB + BB = dynasty but we know BB - TB = 0 while TB - BB = TB still performing at an elite level while leading another team into postseason. That's quite a gaff, swopping out Brady for a big lummox like Newton.

It was a divorce. They got tired of each other. The longest HC/QB relationship in the history of the NFL, by far, that netted an unprecedented amount of success. You can't come up with a more successful duo because there isn't any.

You can continue down your hawt take rabbit hole but in the end they're just a bunch of asinine comments. "Should've been fired" "most overrated in the history of the NFL" . Good Lord.

After drafting Brady, BB kept him on the roster as the fourth QB. A wasted roster spot. The rest is history. It's well documented that BB taught Brady how to read defenses. Brady was a great student. It was a perfect relationship.

Gaffs? Every coach makes mistakes and probably make them every game or every draft but it's the great ones that make less of them. Whatever decisions BB made over the last twenty years resulted in six rings. Nitpicking the decisions you didn't like and implying they could've won more is just hindsight BS.

I've enjoyed watching Brady light it up down in TB. He went to a loaded team and is bringing them to the next level. Good stuff. I wish he would've been able to retire here but the relationship soured. It is what it is. Why BB or TB has to be the bad guy or to blame for the divorce is just a bunch of cackling hens nonsense.

 

[sb1]

You're assuming a lot of things that certainly seem plausible from the limited info we have but the fact remains it's limited. Personally, I believe nothing is more important to BB than winning football games so I give him the benefit of a doubt that he had good reason for benching Butler. That's my opinion.

Even if there was a good reason he didn't even put Butler back in the game when it was obvious the defense was getting shredded without him. I don't see any reason whatsoever to justify that.

Even in the absolute worst case scenario - like say Bill finding out Butler ratted Tom and the ballboys out to the league to start Deflategate you still don't bench him for a game and cost your team a SB. It's a Super Bowl, not a Jets regular season game. There will be another Jets game, there was no guarantee there would ever be another Patriots Super Bowl with BB as coach.

 

[Brady6]

Bruce Arians is the new GOAT.

 

[Brady6]

It was a divorce. They got tired of each other. The longest HC/QB relationship in the history of the NFL, by far, that netted an unprecedented amount of success. You can't come up with a more successful duo because there isn't any.

You can continue down your hawt take rabbit hole but in the end they're just a bunch of asinine comments. "Should've been fired" "most overrated in the history of the NFL" . Good Lord.

After drafting Brady, BB kept him on the roster as the fourth QB. A wasted roster spot. The rest is history. It's well documented that BB taught Brady how to read defenses. Brady was a great student. It was a perfect relationship.

Gaffs? Every coach makes mistakes and probably make them every game or every draft but it's the great ones that make less of them. Whatever decisions BB made over the last twenty years resulted in six rings. Nitpicking the decisions you didn't like and implying they could've won more is just hindsight BS.

I've enjoyed watching Brady light it up down in TB. He went to a loaded team and is bringing them to the next level. Good stuff. I wish he would've been able to retire here but the relationship soured. It is what it is. Why BB or TB has to be the bad guy or to blame for the divorce is just a bunch of cackling hens nonsense.

We would all be foolish to think that BB is the same coach he is today as he was back in the early 2000s. He is a boomer and he is experiencing the same challenges in this day and age as other boomers, which is it is hard to find yes men who do things well now a days. The first thing BB scouts at the combine is a players ability to be a yes man. Players who come in highly touted seldom if ever succeed with Belichick because those types of players have egos already and Belichick cannot stand that, players who end up having to sign as UDFA or taken late in the draft they do good under him because they come in as long shots so they do and say the right things, but the minute they start to think highly of themselves (Malcolm Butler) they are shipped off.

 

[Tottie]

At what point is the GM/Coach held responsible though? You guys say it was a divorce? I disagree but lets say it was. He can just get rid of an elite QB because he's 'tired' of him? He can just bench a top DB in a superbowl because he can? No explanation? Do you know what would happen if any other GM handled the Brady contract like he did? No attempt to give him an extension for years and then no contact of any kind in free agency last year? Are you serious? Then you watch him go put up 43 total TDs and have the second best PFF QB grade for the year? Is that not a bad player evaluation? Anyone else is fired for both the eagles superbowl and/or the Brady contract. I'm not saying I want him fired but I'm pretty tired of hearing about "loaded teams" and "weapons" and he would suck here. We win the division if BB can get himself together and upgrade the offense just a little like we've done many times before. Talk to Brady like a MAN and to gronk like a MAN. The Patriots way doesn't exist without Brady. It's not a BB thing. There will be no more cheap contracts or good free agents coming here. We better hit big on a QB that BB can "tolerate" or get used to the basement.

 

[crawhammer]

You are a flipping moron.

What's your point? Bill's untouchable in your world? Too bad, get over it, I'm bringing up obviously questionable decisions by Belichick that have significantly impacted the overcome of entire seasons. They're worth discussing. Create an In Bill We Trust thread and see where that takes you.

You are assuming you actually have credibility to question. Each and every post in this idiotic thread you started drives home the fact that you mistakenly believe you "know" things that are "obvious." Sorry, but your conjectures aren't flying too well. Let's try this: report back when BB explains to you why he benched Butler and we'll discuss it. Who knows, maybe he'll admit that between winning his fifth and sixth Super Bowls he had an uncharacteristically massive and "detrimental" brain fart that cost the Patriots another title. Or perhaps he'll astound you by breaching confidentiality with a perfectly logical explanation to which you'll respond, "Gee whiz, I never thought of that!"

You need a dictionary bub. It's not conjecture to say Belichick benched Butler for a disciplinary reason. We know Butler was dressed and played one ST snap so we know he was healthy enough to play. We know Butler went from 100% of defensive snaps to 0%. We know Eric Rowe played his highest percentage of snaps for the season by far. We know Rowe played incompetently in the Super Bowl as did Richards and Bademosi. We know the pass defense got shredded and gave up 41 points. We know despite a historic output from the Patriots offense, they lost the game. So it stands to reason that the benching of Butler led to the Patriots losing the Super Bowl.

Whatever the reason was for disciplining Butler, we know it didn't warrant his release from the team or being entirely inactive for the game. We know Belichick had Butler at his disposal to insert him into the game at anytime yet he chose not to despite the disaster unfolding before him. We know Belichick intentionally made a decision (benching Butler), despite having an alternative (playing Butler), and it blew up in his face. For that he deserves to be roundly criticized at least.

It was a divorce. They got tired of each other. The longest HC/QB relationship in the history of the NFL, by far, that netted an unprecedented amount of success. You can't come up with a more successful duo because there isn't any.

I think Brady justifiably got tired of Belichick's nonsense. Brady's also questioned the Butler benching, if somewhat discreetly, but it was clear he didn't agree with it. Belichick also was failing to surround Brady with talent, which happened repeatedly throughout Brady's years in NE. Belichick was ****ing Brady around with the contracts and once Brady asked for the 'no franchise' clause it was apparent he would be leaving the team. Had Belichick not greased the skids for Brady's departure, I think he would have chosen to end his career as a Patriot. He clearly has plenty of football still left in him which Belichick totally miscalculated. For that Belichick deserves to be roundly criticized as well.

Gaffs? Every coach makes mistakes and probably make them every game or every draft but it's the great ones that make less of them. Whatever decisions BB made over the last twenty years resulted in six rings. Nitpicking the decisions you didn't like and implying they could've won more is just hindsight BS.

It's not nitpicking. These are high profile decisions that cost the team games and rings. It's all fair game. It unfolds before us, we see the consequences of his decisions, and we draw our conclusions. Disagreement is inevitable. I don't get the resistance to an honest debate.

 

[ashley]

We would all be foolish to think that BB is the same coach he is today as he was back in the early 2000s. He is a boomer and he is experiencing the same challenges in this day and age as other boomers, which is it is hard to find yes men who do things well now a days. The first thing BB scouts at the combine is a players ability to be a yes man. Players who come in highly touted seldom if ever succeed with Belichick because those types of players have egos already and Belichick cannot stand that, players who end up having to sign as UDFA or taken late in the draft they do good under him because they come in as long shots so they do and say the right things, but the minute they start to think highly of themselves (Malcolm Butler) they are shipped off.

The only thing I would say to you is that two years ago at the Super Bowl, when Bill was putting on a coaching clinic against one of the bright young coaches in the league, nobody questioned him.I highly doubt that in two years, his coaching has diminished.He needs players, just like every coach.