Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Doctor DDS]

Noone talks about Charlie Weis, offensive mind extraordinaire. Noone says Crennel is defensive genius. Josh McD’a sheen is fading fast (if it didn’t already after Broncos and Rams tours). This is the fate that awaits BB. Once he has a couple of years of failure without Brady we’ll just remember his as another guy who rode Brady’s coattails.

Exactly - just like Michael Jordan was no longer considered an all-time great after never winning anything after Phil Jackson left or how Muhammed Ali's reputation was never able to recover after losing to Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes. Not sure I ever heard his name mentioned after that Holmes shellacking. Tom Landy and Chuck Noll are complete after thoughts historically after failing to produce after Staubach and Bradshaw retired. BB is one year away from irrelevancy.

 

[lancerman]

You do realize that there is no difference in “cap shape in 2021and beyond” with the changes I mentioned above. McCourty was a 2 yr contract. And I am talking about giving Brady the 2 yr extension he wanted instead. We already had dead money for Brady. I am just saying extend Brady instead and let McCourty walk.

BB basically messed up. That’s it.

The problem is whether Brady would want to deal with this year when he could just walk and go somewhere with more talent. I don't see this being a playoff team with Brady or any QB. We were only a playoff team last year because we dominated early before injuries tore the team apart, everyone knew we were a dead man walking. And we have a worse receiving corp than last year and your scenario relies on us getting rid of Thuney who is one of the best lineman on the team or getting rid of a piece in the secondary which has been the best unit on the team this year.

I don't think Bill messed up anything. Brady simply didn't want to be here. He already said he knew he was likely gone before the season started and he gave the Bucs a pretty team friendly deal. They knew they were rebuilding. If you kept Brady you were keeping him hoping you could dramatically improve the team by 2021 or 2022. So you are doing all this for his 44 year old and 45 year old year and he's probablly going to retire right after if he doesn't fall apart before.

Logically this year was the right time for all parties to move on. We start out with a clean slate and better cap room and Brady has a ready made team until he hangs them up.

 

[203Pat]

Eli Manning
The shell of Peyton Manning
Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Nick Foles
Joe Flacco
Doug Williams
Phil Simms
Jim McMahon
Jeff Hostetler
Hell Terry bradshaw 4 times.

what is the stat? I’d it no QB to lead the league in passing has ever won a SB? (Or is it mvp?). If it were all about the qb how can that be?

Peyton Manning, McMahon, and Trent Dilfer had all time defenses. Same with Brad Johnson who played well all year and was third in the NFC in TD passes and made the pro bowl. Foles and Hostetler, only played a few games the year they won.

 

[lancerman]

Exactly - just like Michael Jordan was no longer considered an all-time great after never winning anything after Phil Jackson left or how Muhammed Ali's reputation was never able to recover after losing to Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes. Not sure I ever heard his name mentioned after that Holmes shellacking. Tom Landy and Chuck Noll are complete after thoughts historically after failing to produce after Staubach and Bradshaw retired. BB is one year away from irrelevancy.

Yeah I don't get this. Bill at this point has accomplished too much for his legacy to take a hit.

 

[lancerman]

Peyton Manning, McMahon, and Trent Dilfer had all time defenses. Same with Brad Johnson who played well all year and was third in the NFC in TD passes and made the pro bowl. Foles and Hostetler, only played a few games the year they won.

It's also worth noting that as nice as it is to watch a 00 Ravens, 02 Bucs, 85 Bears, or 15 Broncos defense.... that absolutely should not be the goal for a team to build towards. In all those cases it lasted 1 year and they couldn't sustain it. Too much of a grind and too many moving parts. It's rare to get to and it has no track record of sustaining. Top QB's keep their team in the hunt for like a decade. Rodgers with a not great defense won a ring by himself so an elite QB still yields you the same thing, it just also keeps your team with a much higher ceiling and gives you more chances.

 

[203Pat]

It's also worth noting that as nice as it is to watch a 00 Ravens, 02 Bucs, 85 Bears, or 15 Broncos defense.... that absolutely should not be the goal for a team to build towards. In all those cases it lasted 1 year and they couldn't sustain it. Too much of a grind and too many moving parts. It's rare to get to and it has no track record of sustaining. Top QB's keep their team in the hunt for like a decade. Rodgers with a not great defense won a ring by himself so an elite QB still yields you the same thing, it just also keeps your team with a much higher ceiling and gives you more chances.

Completely agree. QB's can now play to around 40 years old with the way the league has adjusted to protect them as well as the way the league has made it tougher on defenses with the rule changes. In today's NFL to invest in the QB and build out your roster from there.

 

[Ring 6]

Peyton Manning, McMahon, and Trent Dilfer had all time defenses. Same with Brad Johnson who played well all year and was third in the NFC in TD passes and made the pro bowl. Foles and Hostetler, only played a few games the year they won.

That doesn’t support the argument that it’s all about the qb.

 

[203Pat]

That doesn’t support the argument that it’s all about the qb.

I agree it is all about the QB. A couple of guys that got carried are the outlier.

 

[Ring 6]

You lose credibility when you write stuff like that.

everybody knows that Bill did everything in his power the last few years to force Brady out of towns. Everybody knows that the main reason Tom Brady is not a Patriots is Bill Belichick.

No. The facts are Brady went to krafts house and said he was gone and when Kraft asked if anything could be fine to keep him Brady said no. You lose credibility when you deny that.

 

[sb1]

That doesn’t support the argument that it’s all about the qb.

As we are seeing here, an all time great coach + crap QB play = 6-10 or 7-9. That does support it.

 

[Ring 6]

As we are seeing here, an all time great coach + crap QB play = 6-10 or 7-9. That does support it.

Perhaps if the QB were the only change but that’s obviously not the case.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree it is all about the QB. A couple of guys that got carried are the outlier.

A couple of guys? I listed many.
If it’s all about the QB, his many times was the Sb won by that seasons best qb?
How did the 2001 Patriots win?

 

[203Pat]

A couple of guys? I listed many.
If it’s all about the QB, his many times was the Sb won by that seasons best qb?
How did the 2001 Patriots win?

You listed two backups who played a handful of games combines and a few guys carried by all time defenses. The other QB's weren't elite but were good enough to get their teams to the playoffs and got hot at the right time. A few QB's out of 50 some odd Super Bowls doesn't prove anything.

 

[Ring 6]

You listed two backups who played a handful of games combines and a few guys carried by all time defenses. The other QB's weren't elite but were good enough to get their teams to the playoffs and got hot at the right time. A few QB's out of 50 some odd Super Bowls doesn't prove anything.

Why would what they defense is matter if it’s all about the QB? QBs being carried by their defenses is contrary to your argument and ultimately almost every QB you would consider THE reason his team wins, won 1 or maybe 2, and only did so when their defense was strong
How does “not elite” but good enough to get their team to the playoffs and get hot support it’s all about the qb?
Hoe many QBs that won SBs were the best qb in the league at the time?
Not many. If it’s all about the qb why does Eli Manning have more rings than Dan Marino?
Why did Peyton Manning stumble into one his entire career besides the one he got that he had nothing to do with?
Counter my list (off the top of my head, there are surely more) with seasons where the best win in the league won the Sb?
It won’t come close.

The bottom line is there is correlation between good when play and winning, just as there is to good enough play, good defense, special teams and right guard play. It’s a team.
Of course good QB improves your chances, but that’s true of any position. The game has evolved to a point where the QB is the most visible, popular, and enamored player, and while he is also the most important player, the popularity and misconception that football is qb vs qb is blown multitudes out of proportion.
People focus on the name players, but those name players only win when the entire team is good and everyone does their job.
Again if it were all about the qb the best QBs team would win every year.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

No. The facts are Brady went to krafts house and said he was gone and when Kraft asked if anything could be fine to keep him Brady said no. You lose credibility when you deny that.

I never denied that but Brady went to Kraft house at the opening of free agency so for two month Bill has not call Brady to offer him a contract. So why Brady would have stayed for a team that for 3 years the coach did everything in his power to make him not happy and basically forcing him to leave?

Amendola was not happy with Bill at the end, Gronk retire because he didn’t want to play for Bill and Brady left because he didn’t to play for Bill. On offense Bill has always played hardball with every one. Moss, Welker. Unsurprisingly, the only player he has paid are defensive player.

Your thongue must hurt so bad after so many hours licking Bill b*lls.

 

[Ring 6]

This goes for every post and every thread on this forum. Nothing we type here changes what will actually happen with the team. We’re all just opining.

And you do the same by replying to my post and participating in this thread. Why aren’t you ignoring it, laughing at us and go spend your free time with your family and more productively instead? Instead of acting haughty? Why do you come to these forums then. Go just enjoy the games.

I come to these forums to read about the team, both to gather news reports and listen to the opinions of fans. I respond when I see something I think is wrong.
Saying it is your job to criticize and blame is wrong, and I think your response agrees with that.
As I said, you (and I) are unaffiliated observers who choose to attach ourselves to the team.
Perhaps our brains are just wired differently but I cannot imagine setting out to attach yourself to an entity you are not at all affiliated with, in order to sit in judgment and assess blame when you aren’t happy with the results you have chosen to associate yourself with.
I just don’t get it. I am a fan because I love football and I chose a team to root for, to take enjoyment in their success. This team has given me a lifetime of more success than a fan could have any right to expect. I just can’t understand being hateful, bitter, critical, negative, divisive, angry, etc about any of the people that produced that FOR me.

 

[Ring 6]

Noone talks about Charlie Weis, offensive mind extraordinaire. Noone says Crennel is defensive genius. Josh McD’a sheen is fading fast (if it didn’t already after Broncos and Rams tours). This is the fate that awaits BB. Once he has a couple of years of failure without Brady we’ll just remember his as another guy who rode Brady’s

I never denied that but Brady went to Kraft house at the opening of free agency so for two month Bill has not call Brady to offer him a contract. So why Brady would have stayed for a team that for 3 years the coach did everything in his power to make him not happy and basically forcing him to leave?

[/QUOTE]
That is not accurate.

Amendola was not happy with Bill at the end, Gronk retire because he didn’t want to play for Bill and Brady left because he didn’t to play for Bill. On offense Bill has always played hardball with every one. Moss, Welker. Unsurprisingly, the only player he has paid are defensive player.

Amendola wasn’t happy because he wasn’t offered more money. That was the right move. Gronk retired because he was beaten up. It’s belichicks job to play hardball. Duh.

Your thongue must hurt so bad after so many hours licking Bill b*lls.

If this is the low class imature type of comment that you rely on to communicate, we are done here.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

we are done here.

Finally

 

[Wozzy]

Bill drafted Brady... how is this even a conversation.

No Bill... no Brady.

Brady ends up playing behind Arizona's offensive line, you don't even know who he is unless you are a Michigan alum... and he walks with a limp after his four year career is over.

 

[203Pat]

Bill drafted Brady... how is this even a conversation.

No Bill... no Brady.

Brady ends up playing behind Arizona's offensive line, you don't even know who he is unless you are a Michigan alum... and he walks with a limp after his four year career is over.