Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Doctor DDS]

We could have afforded Brady if we wanted to. Here, I'll do it.

Let Thuney walk (he will in a year's time anyway) and I saved you $15m for this year. BOOM!!

Don't tell me Thuney is worth 4-5 wins like Brady is. And it wasn't some long-term contract, just a 1 year franchise tag. Pats just messed up that's all. Brady was good value at $25m per year for 2 years.

Or McCourty's 2yr at $23m extension. Could have skipper that if needed. I'd rather have an aging Brady for 2 years rather than an aging McCourty for 2 years. I know which options gets us more wins,

If we wanted to, we could have brought Brady back. Belichick was trying to make a statement. His legacy. He WANTED to win without Brady. To show that he deserved the credit for all those wins. And he thought Brady was fading and would fall flat on his face while BB would be able to put up decent performance without Brady (BTW he never has).

And now all this has backfired spectacularly for Belichick.

Never said they could not have kept Brady money wise. The question if how do they keep him and field a Super Bowl competitive team. Agree that cutting these 2 important players and having Brady play instead would have made them slightly better in 2020 but it still leaves them well short of championship contention this year and in the near future. Isn't it possible that BB decided that due to the cap situation and a weak roster that it was in the best long term interests of the Patriots to move on now and improve the cap shape in 2021 and beyond vs the often repeated narrative of wanting to prove he can win w/o Brady?

 

[sb1]

Considering this whole thread has a singular purpose, looking at who contributed to Pats more, Brady or Belichick, then absolutely Bill's record ex-Brady is perfect for evaluating Bill's HCing skills standalone. I'd also love to see Brady's Pats record ex-BB but we don't have any obviously.

And then you can look more broadly at Bill's entire HCing record ex-brady (FYI, it sucks) and compare to Brady's entire career ex BB (10-5 so far, not bad).

We ignore their time together because it's hard to objectively decide who contributed more in their years together. But it's easier to do objective analysis when comparing their records outside of playing with each other.

It's a pretty simple approach and thought process, and entirely rational.

I agree but I think that question is very easy to answer. It’s Brady. The historically great QB gets more credit for the dynasty and championships than the coach no matter how great he is. Always.

Like I said there are two debates in parallel here. If you’re trying to ask how good is Bill as a HC period - some have said he is only average- then you must look at his whole resume with and without Tom.

 

[sb1]

As Bedard said Bill will start to feel a little pressure now for the first time in a couple decades after this season ends. Bill won’t be able to make cap or covid or no-Brady excuses next year. It’s all about fixing this roster now.

I can’t wait to see what happens.

 

[Biffins]

Never said they could not have kept Brady money wise. The question if how do they keep him and field a Super Bowl competitive team. Agree that cutting these 2 important players and having Brady play instead would have made them slightly better in 2020 but it still leaves them well short of championship contention this year and in the near future. Isn't it possible that BB decided that due to the cap situation and a weak roster that it was in the best long term interests of the Patriots to move on now and improve the cap shape in 2021 and beyond vs the often repeated narrative of wanting to prove he can win w/o Brady?

You do realize that there is no difference in “cap shape in 2021and beyond” with the changes I mentioned above. McCourty was a 2 yr contract. And I am talking about giving Brady the 2 yr extension he wanted instead. We already had dead money for Brady. I am just saying extend Brady instead and let McCourty walk.

BB basically messed up. That’s it.

 

[amfootball]

As I wrote, they spoke one time when Brady called him. That conversation went no where. The Pats did not offer him a contract or try to negotiate a contract in the time between the last game of the season and March 18 when he would become a FA. When Brady saw that they were letting him hit Free Agency without giving him an offer he knew his time was done and on March 16 he made the decision to tell Kraft he was going to leave.

This season must feel so good for Brady.

 

[Biffins]

As Bedard said Bill will start to feel a little pressure now for the first time in a couple decades after this season ends. Bill won’t be able to make cap or covid or no-Brady excuses next year. It’s all about fixing this roster now.

I can’t wait to see what happens.

I have a sinking feeling about this.........

 

[sb1]

I have a sinking feeling about this.........

I think Brady’s success is great for the Patriots and for Gm Bill as he rebuilds. You know he’s paying attention and you know he’s hearing the questions about his legacy and he will try to respond. . Let’s just say I expect more good talented players with upside here and less NKeal Harry’s. Excited to see it play out.

 

[Biffins]

Well you have hit the nail on the head. It certainly is NOT your job to assign blame. You don’t have a job, you are a fan. By you choosing that this is the team you like, you don’t earn powers, or, my God, a job.
What has happened and what will happen to the franchise will be exactly the same thing whether you never heard of the team or consider yourself it’s biggest fan. Being a fan only means you hope the team wins. You are an observer, who chooses to identify with what actual real people do, and align yourself with it. Sadly with the winning franchise ever, instead of thinking your role is gratitude and appreciation one losing season makes you think you exist to criticize and assign blame.
The “blame” for each of the last 21 seasons falls on Belichick. On a scale of 1 to 100, I give him a 100 because he has done better than anyone ever has.
Feeling the need to assign blame, to be hopeful or negative, to appreciate the success that you attached yourself to, etc, are about you, not the team, or any of the people you choose to spend your free time watching work.

This goes for every post and every thread on this forum. Nothing we type here changes what will actually happen with the team. We’re all just opining.

And you do the same by replying to my post and participating in this thread. Why aren’t you ignoring it, laughing at us and go spend your free time with your family and more productively instead? Instead of acting haughty? Why do you come to these forums then. Go just enjoy the games.

 

[Biffins]

Brady chose to leave.

He was kicked out!

 

[JMC00]

Wins against teams with a winning record this season

Belichick- 3

Brady- 1

 

[Doctor DDS]

You do realize that there is no difference in “cap shape in 2021and beyond” with the changes I mentioned above. McCourty was a 2 yr contract. And I am talking about giving Brady the 2 yr extension he wanted instead. We already had dead money for Brady. I am just saying extend Brady instead and let McCourty walk.

BB basically messed up. That’s it.

And this puts the Patriots where? Brady and the Patriots went 2-4 in his last 6 games in 2019. You bring Brady back and let 2 of their better players go and expect what exactly? I am a huge Brady fan and hate seeing him on another team but am also not deluded into thinking if they still kept him they would be fighting for a Super Bowl.

 

[JMC00]

As Bedard said Bill will start to feel a little pressure

Douche and squeaky's lap dog doesn't know ****

 

[Biffins]

And this puts the Patriots where? Brady and the Patriots went 2-4 in his last 6 games in 2019. You bring Brady back and let 2 of their better players go and expect what exactly? I am a huge Brady fan and hate seeing him on another team but am also not deluded into thinking if they still kept him they would be fighting for a Super Bowl.

We might be 9-7 instead of 6-10? Possibly 10-6.

i didn’t think we’d necessarily be fighting for Superbowl, but we’d have 3-4 more wins, possibly in playoffs, and we could see Brady finish his career here.

How is it better to see McCourty finish his career here?

 

[Biffins]

Ring 6, I did a little digging to back up what I wrote. If you don’t believe Curran who is very connected then so be it.


Do we want to do “blame” or do we want to do “reasons”?

We can do both but — out of respect for the end of the greatest run by any franchise in NFL history — I’d rather lay off the blame for why Tom Brady is no longer a Patriot.

Let’s stick to reasons.

One thing, though? Tom Brady didn’t “decide” to leave the Patriots. That’s for sure.

He decided to leave the same way a person “decides” to get out of the car when it pulls into the driveway, is put into park and the engine is turned off. Ride’s over. Time to get out.

The Patriots made very clear to Brady over the past few years that they weren’t in it with him for the long haul anymore.
They made it clear before the 2018 season when — instead of the extension he’d been trying to extract — he was given some incentives to hit in order to sweeten his salary.

At the time, a source texted me, “Remember, this is a club that would not pull the thorn out of the lion’s paw if presented with the situation.”
He didn’t hit any of those incentives.

Before the 2019 season, it took Brady seriously considering walking out of training camp before the Patriots gave him a raise and agreed to remove the franchise tag for 2020.

“Year-to-year! Year-to-year! Everybody wants to be year-to-year!”

That was the buff-and-shine put on the lack of a deal taking Brady through to the end of his career.

No, the Patriots wanted to be year-to-year. Brady — in asking to have the tag off the table — was only leveling the playing field by making it so that he had the same control over his future the Patriots had been exercising.

If the ride weren’t over, if Bill Belichick wasn’t ambivalent about re-upping with Brady for his 43-year-old season, there would have been an offer made over the past two months since the season ended.

There would have been more than just one phone conversation. There wouldn’t have been an intimation that the first move in negotiations needed to be made by Brady.​

The door for Brady was left wide open. He just walked through it.

Why did Tom Brady walk away from Patriots, Bill Belichick after 20 years?

Do we want to do “blame” or do we want to do “reasons”? We can do both but — out of respect for the end of the greatest run by any franchise in NFL history — I’d rather lay off the blame for why Tom Brady is no longer a Patriot. Let’s stick to reasons. One thing, though? Tom Brady didn’t “decide”…

www.nbcsports.com

thank you. Exactly. He was effectively pushed out.

massive miscalculation and misjudgment by BB and he deserves the blame

 

[Biffins]

You lose credibility when you write stuff like that.

No, what he says is accurate. The only reason Brady is not a patriot today is BB

 

[Doctor DDS]

We might be 9-7 instead of 6-10? Possibly 10-6.

i didn’t think we’d necessarily be fighting for Superbowl, but we’d have 3-4 more wins, possibly in playoffs, and we could see Brady finish his career here.

How is it better to see McCourty finish his career here?

McCourty has a cap hit of 5.4M this year so the comparison to Brady is a bit thin. But in general I agree - I am not sure why BB felt the need to give him the 2 year contract he did.

 

[Toofy]

I think brady leaving was inevitable, why would brady want to stick with a roster so devoid of talent and would possibly not have the stomach for a rebuild or transition. The contract could be one reason, but guess would not have been the major reason. The lack of talent last year and Harry flopping and brown ejection was the last straw. Brady wanted to protect his legacy and belichick also the same. We just need to give Bill the next 2 seasons to see if he can do it once again.

I don't think bills legacy will be questioned, but if there is no rebuild or winning seasons after bradys departure , the claim for GOAT coach would definitely be up for debate if brady wins a ring again with tampa.

Bill the GM has to sprint this offseason. Lets hope we see another decade of dominance.

 

[Biffins]

As Bedard said Bill will start to feel a little pressure now for the first time in a couple decades after this season ends. Bill won’t be able to make cap or covid or no-Brady excuses next year. It’s all about fixing this roster now.

I can’t wait to see what happens.

I agree but I think that question is very easy to answer. It’s Brady. The historically great QB gets more credit for the dynasty and championships than the coach no matter how great he is. Always.

Like I said there are two debates in parallel here. If you’re trying to ask how good is Bill as a HC period - some have said he is only average- then you must look at his whole resume with and without Tom.

Noone talks about Charlie Weis, offensive mind extraordinaire. Noone says Crennel is defensive genius. Josh McD’a sheen is fading fast (if it didn’t already after Broncos and Rams tours). This is the fate that awaits BB. Once he has a couple of years of failure without Brady we’ll just remember his as another guy who rode Brady’s coattails.

 

[Biffins]

I think brady leaving was inevitable, why would brady want to stick with a roster so devoid of talent and would possibly not have the stomach for a rebuild or transition. The contract could be one reason, but guess would not have been the major reason. The lack of talent last year and Harry flopping and brown ejection was the last straw. Brady wanted to protect his legacy and belichick also the same. We just need to give Bill the next 2 seasons to see if he can do it once again.

I don't think bills legacy will be questioned, but if there is no rebuild or winning seasons after bradys departure , the claim for GOAT coach would definitely be up for debate if brady wins a ring again with tampa.

Bill the GM has to sprint this offseason. Lets hope we see another decade of dominance.

It already is being questioned. It’s being questioned repeatedly in this thread. Another year of failure and it will be questioned repeatedly on national media.

 

[Biffins]

McCourty has a cap hit of 5.4M this year so the comparison to Brady is a bit thin. But in general I agree - I am not sure why BB felt the need to give him the 2 year contract he did.

Brady’s cap hit could have been lowered as well if we wanted by making it a 3 or 4 year contract but only 2 year guaranteed.

since we’re talking long-term then it wasn’t just about cap hits but what we’re paying.