Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[jmt57]

Congratulations to all on both sides for your relentless effort.

1,000 posts and still going strong, with absolutely no end in sight.

Well done!

 

[Biffins]

Bill’s job is and has been a much tougher job than Tom’s. Tom has to get one player ready to play. Bill has had to get 46 or now 48 players ready to compete every game. When Tom was resting with his family and jumping off cliffs in Central America, Bill was sclepping around the country watching draft prospects do 3 cone drills.

Why this whole discussion is so silly, is that everyone is trying to compare apples to oranges and trying to compare today to 5, 10 or 20 years ago.

All of us only have so much within us. When Tommy was learning to add and subtract, Bill was already matching wits with Walsh and Gibbs. There’s precedent for QBs in their early 40s to still be playing nearly as well as the did 5 years before (Moon and Farve). There is no precedent for a HC in their late 60s to be coaching as well as they did in their early 60s or before. Much less be as good of a team builder and de facto D coordinator as well.

What they are today does not tell us what their comparative worth was in 2001, 2009 or 2018. They both were the GOATS if you ask me, and I’m incredibly appreciative of the smiles and great Sundays they gave me for over 20 years.

Come on man. The job of an NFL QB is so tough we can’t find 32 people in the world willing to do a competent job at $20m per year or more.

Coaches have all the time in the world to analyse and game plan. When the pressure is on and it’s crunch time, the players have to play and execute.

 

[Biffins]

Congratulations all on your relentless effort.

1,000 posts and still going strong, with absolutely no end in sight.

Well done!

Agreed. We wouldn’t need all these posts if these few BB apologists didn’t show so much passion defending him.

 

[Biffins]

You must have me confused with someone else.
I never trashed Brady and I never applauded his decision to leave the patriots

My point is why is it necessary to run around assigning blame?
If Brady had played out his career here and reached the point where the team was losing because of him the idiot brigade would be doing the same thing to him, and I’d be saying the same thing.

What do you mean "why is it necessary to run around assigning blame"? Really? Do I have to answer that question?

We're fans of a professional sports team. It's our frickin job to run around assigning blame after the team fcks up. That's literally what fans of every sports team everywhere in the world does after their team underperforms. They run around and assign blame. What else are we to do? Make a campfire and sing kumbaya and hug each other?

And the blame for this season falls on Belichick.

 

[Biffins]

I'll push back on the 'making his son look like a genius' part, although I'm not disagreeing that he tried, he just failed at that too. The defensive game plans, in game adjustments, personnel substitutions, and generally the defense have been subpar, at times awful, this season. And seemingly Stephen Belichick is responsible to some degree.

The whole nepotism aspect of it is a real bad look as well. To my understanding the Belichick sons don't have any real coaching experiences outside of with the Patriots. I also think Bill has made an effort otherwise to hire relatively inexperienced or seemingly underqualified assistant coaches as a cover for justifying the hiring of his inexperienced and underqualified sons. This ploy has likely played a part in some of the resulting sloppiness we've seen in the team.

How come Kraft doesn't intervene and tell Belichick it's a bad look. They have so many connections in the League. Belichick can get his son a coaching job in any other team and let him stand on his own merit.

In ANY other organization it would be called nepotism.

 

[Biffins]

Bill brings or really demands players be disciplined and accountable reall to a degree you don;t see around the league very often. Tampa bay for example is really pretty undisciplined at times and it has cost them games. That has rarely happened to the Pats. Bill was really instramental in the first three superbowls in putting together really top defenses. And the win over the Rams was another great defensive effort. He also allowed Brady to progress to the point that he was throwing it all over the filed ala Manning. So yeah, just off the top of my head he's a great coach. Players who have played for him and other coaches seem to think he is a great coach. Does he has faults? For sure. Sometimes it is in silly things like benching Welker for foot jokes or the monumentally stupid decision to bench Butler for the Super Bowl. and as so many have mentioned, one his biggest flaws is drafting players. His financial discipline which many have heralded as a good thing only worked becaue of Brady. Somehow Bill the GM has assembled the worst WR group and the worst TE group in the entire league. With a good QB over the past 20 years Bill woudl have had the team in place to be a perrenial playoff contender. My point is that it is Brady and not Bill that has made them a Super Bowl contender.

I'd love to hear the "I love Bill" stories from 2020 and beyond for all the seasons that we don't have Brady and are finding it tough winning games.

I bet suddenly Bill's tough love is not going to sound very appealing anymore.

Let's see.

 

[Biffins]

Bill brings or really demands players be disciplined and accountable reall to a degree you don;t see around the league very often. Tampa bay for example is really pretty undisciplined at times and it has cost them games. That has rarely happened to the Pats. Bill was really instramental in the first three superbowls in putting together really top defenses. And the win over the Rams was another great defensive effort. He also allowed Brady to progress to the point that he was throwing it all over the filed ala Manning. So yeah, just off the top of my head he's a great coach. Players who have played for him and other coaches seem to think he is a great coach. Does he has faults? For sure. Sometimes it is in silly things like benching Welker for foot jokes or the monumentally stupid decision to bench Butler for the Super Bowl. and as so many have mentioned, one his biggest flaws is drafting players. His financial discipline which many have heralded as a good thing only worked becaue of Brady. Somehow Bill the GM has assembled the worst WR group and the worst TE group in the entire league. With a good QB over the past 20 years Bill woudl have had the team in place to be a perrenial playoff contender. My point is that it is Brady and not Bill that has made them a Super Bowl contender.

So a "pretty disciplined" Patriots have 6-7 wins while a "really pretty undisciplined" Bucs have 10-11 wins. So Brady matters that much more? And Bill's roster selection is that much worse?

Guys 6-10 is a really bad record. There are teams with 6 wins like 49ers that are bottom of the division. We are saved from that ignominy only due having Jets in our division.

 

[Biffins]

Yes he is below .500 overall without Brady as Pats coach. It is interesting though that in both of those down seasons (2000 and this year) the roster and/or QB was awful. When it wasn’t (2008 and 2016) his record is well above .500. Coincidence?


Not sure why we are writing off Bills tenure with Brady when we are evaluating the coach. It most certainly is part of the story of Bill just as much as the rest of it as much we might like to believe otherwise.

Again, this is Bill the coach only not Bill the GM. That’s a different story.

Considering this whole thread has a singular purpose, looking at who contributed to Pats more, Brady or Belichick, then absolutely Bill's record ex-Brady is perfect for evaluating Bill's HCing skills standalone. I'd also love to see Brady's Pats record ex-BB but we don't have any obviously.

And then you can look more broadly at Bill's entire HCing record ex-brady (FYI, it sucks) and compare to Brady's entire career ex BB (10-5 so far, not bad).

We ignore their time together because it's hard to objectively decide who contributed more in their years together. But it's easier to do objective analysis when comparing their records outside of playing with each other.

It's a pretty simple approach and thought process, and entirely rational.

 

[Biffins]

I agree it is frustrating that we are stuck with Newton, it worked for the first few games but in the end it was a failed signing. But since Brady was gone there was no alternative. Stidham isn’t an alternative. He is not a prospect and there’s no need to look at him. That’s already been done and it seems he isn’t very good. A week with the starters won’t make a lousy QB good.

After this season let’s hope this never happens again. And with a better QB and a real passing offense we can finally have a real look at Bill the coach post Brady.

Yes but Brady didn't have to be gone. We could have easily afforded him for the Bucs' contract of $25m per year for 2 years guaranteed, and some small escalators (which he won't hit). We offered 1yr for $23m. So per year it was a $2m difference. Don't tell me we couldn't have afforded $2m more for the year. It was more of a view that Brady would collapse and we'd be overpaying for him, especially for 2021, and that view has turned out to be patently false for this year. And likely will for next year as well but let's see.

Belichick has done everything to indicate that except for shouting "Cliff!!" at every Brady interception.

 

[Biffins]

Maybe because that terrible GM just had an unprecedented run of 8 straight AFCCG's and 4 Super Bowls in 5 years? Maybe because most of us understand that the salary cap is an actual thing and having the most successful GM in NFL history leading this rebuild vs some random new person seems like a much higher probability of success? Assume you wanted the Celtics to fire GM Auerbach after the 77 and 78 seasons when the team was at the bottom of the league. Why give him a chance to rebuild as he had obviously lost it?

BB has certainly made mistakes the last several years. His attempt to give the 2019 team a real chance at the Super Bowl backfired when Gordon, AB and Sanu did not work out and he lost draft capital and cap space. You can certainly argue that he should have held onto Brady for a couple more years like the Celtics did with Bird in the late 80's as the beloved icon of the team and they would have been better in the short term but I have yet to hear how that approach would have worked under the cap and led to another serious SB run vs just postponing the rebuild. I love Brady and hate seeing him on another team but I certainly understand the logic behind the move.

BB conceded that the cap situation limited options this season (which was obvious to anyone paying attention) and he decided to bite the bullet vs manipulating cap hits. He took a flyer on Cam and that failed. His roster decisions and contract maneuvering the past several years were wildly successful in the short term but have left them in a tough spot as his draft failures did not leave the Patriots with the cheap replacements they needed to manage the cap. He certainly deserves criticism for his drafting since 2016 (anything before that is irrelevant to current team as they are all past rookie contracts anyways) and needs a huge year this offseason. Amazingly the Pats now find themselves in one of the best cap positions in the league.

Look at where many of the recent the recent Super Bowl teams are right now - Panthers, Falcons, Eagles, 49ers - it is not easy to stay on top of the league. When you win you end up with a lot of players wanting to get paid - in a capped league you cannot keep all of them. The Pats can certainly become one of those teams that fires coaches and GMS every few years in an attempt to get better - I for one hope they don't.

We could have afforded Brady if we wanted to. Here, I'll do it.

Let Thuney walk (he will in a year's time anyway) and I saved you $15m for this year. BOOM!!

Don't tell me Thuney is worth 4-5 wins like Brady is. And it wasn't some long-term contract, just a 1 year franchise tag. Pats just messed up that's all. Brady was good value at $25m per year for 2 years.

Or McCourty's 2yr at $23m extension. Could have skipper that if needed. I'd rather have an aging Brady for 2 years rather than an aging McCourty for 2 years. I know which options gets us more wins,

If we wanted to, we could have brought Brady back. Belichick was trying to make a statement. His legacy. He WANTED to win without Brady. To show that he deserved the credit for all those wins. And he thought Brady was fading and would fall flat on his face while BB would be able to put up decent performance without Brady (BTW he never has).

And now all this has backfired spectacularly for Belichick.

 

[Ring 6]

What do you mean "why is it necessary to run around assigning blame"? Really? Do I have to answer that question?

We're fans of a professional sports team. It's our frickin job to run around assigning blame after the team fcks up. That's literally what fans of every sports team everywhere in the world does after their team underperforms. They run around and assign blame. What else are we to do? Make a campfire and sing kumbaya and hug each other?

And the blame for this season falls on Belichick.

Well you have hit the nail on the head. It certainly is NOT your job to assign blame. You don’t have a job, you are a fan. By you choosing that this is the team you like, you don’t earn powers, or, my God, a job.
What has happened and what will happen to the franchise will be exactly the same thing whether you never heard of the team or consider yourself it’s biggest fan. Being a fan only means you hope the team wins. You are an observer, who chooses to identify with what actual real people do, and align yourself with it. Sadly with the winning franchise ever, instead of thinking your role is gratitude and appreciation one losing season makes you think you exist to criticize and assign blame.
The “blame” for each of the last 21 seasons falls on Belichick. On a scale of 1 to 100, I give him a 100 because he has done better than anyone ever has.
Feeling the need to assign blame, to be hopeful or negative, to appreciate the success that you attached yourself to, etc, are about you, not the team, or any of the people you choose to spend your free time watching work.

 

[Ring 6]

We could have afforded Brady if we wanted to. Here, I'll do it.

Let Thuney walk (he will in a year's time anyway) and I saved you $15m for this year. BOOM!!

Don't tell me Thuney is worth 4-5 wins like Brady is. And it wasn't some long-term contract, just a 1 year franchise tag. Pats just messed up that's all. Brady was good value at $25m per year for 2 years.

Or McCourty's 2yr at $23m extension. Could have skipper that if needed. I'd rather have an aging Brady for 2 years rather than an aging McCourty for 2 years. I know which options gets us more wins,

If we wanted to, we could have brought Brady back. Belichick was trying to make a statement. His legacy. He WANTED to win without Brady. To show that he deserved the credit for all those wins. And he thought Brady was fading and would fall flat on his face while BB would be able to put up decent performance without Brady (BTW he never has).

And now all this has backfired spectacularly for Belichick.

Brady chose to leave.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes but Brady didn't have to be gone. We could have easily afforded him for the Bucs' contract of $25m per year for 2 years guaranteed, and some small escalators (which he won't hit). We offered 1yr for $23m. So per year it was a $2m difference. Don't tell me we couldn't have afforded $2m more for the year. It was more of a view that Brady would collapse and we'd be overpaying for him, especially for 2021, and that view has turned out to be patently false for this year. And likely will for next year as well but let's see.

Belichick has done everything to indicate that except for shouting "Cliff!!" at every Brady interception.

No contract was offered because Brady wouldn’t talk, he wanted to leave. As soon as free agency started he went to krafts house, and said I’m leaving. Kraft asked if there was anything they could do and Brady said no.

 

[Boomer B]

Just finished the book The Dynasty tonight. Damn good book with the focus on Kraft, Belichick, and Brady. The author had access to all 3 and also many other members of the organization.

All 3 deserve a ton of credit for the success over 20 years. The thing Brady needs to be applauded for which kept everyone in line is being able to take criticism and to be coached. No way other top QBs would do what Brady did. The way he responded to a hard loss. Once in 2004 against the Dolphins and again in 2014 against KC, after the tough loss Brady studied film against the next opponent on the bus to the airport, on the airplane, then stayed at the stadium all night without going home studying film. He was a man possessed. You just don’t see that kind of commitment from anyone else.

Belichick is the best coach of his era and was able to get the best out of Brady, but Tom is the best player to ever suit up, and that is more important than the coach.

 

[Boomer B]

No contract was offered because Brady wouldn’t talk, he wanted to leave. As soon as free agency started he went to krafts house, and said I’m leaving. Kraft asked if there was anything they could do and Brady said no.

And Bill had that whole time before Brady hit free agency to negotiate and offer a contract and he didn’t even call Tom or his agent. Tom called once and Bill was distant and nothing got done. That was the end. Tom knew Bill didn’t want him back and the Pats never even offered him a deal.

 

[Ring 6]

And Bill had that whole time before Brady hit free agency to negotiate and offer a contract and he didn’t even call Tom or his agent. Tom called once and Bill was distant and nothing got done. That was the end. Tom knew Bill didn’t want him back and the Pats never even offered him a deal.

That does not add up. There is no way belichick never spoke to Brady. Perhaps there was an impasse, such as disagreement about what the market would command and therefore there was nothing to talk about. But there is no way, given the cap situation, the dead money he would eat to not have Brady, and the obvious knowledge that he would not be able to obtain any qb that anyone else wanted, that belichick just decided he didnt want Brady and would basically not have a qb.

 

[Boomer B]

That does not add up. There is no way belichick never spoke to Brady. Perhaps there was an impasse, such as disagreement about what the market would command and therefore there was nothing to talk about. But there is no way, given the cap situation, the dead money he would eat to not have Brady, and the obvious knowledge that he would not be able to obtain any qb that anyone else wanted, that belichick just decided he didnt want Brady and would basically not have a qb.

As I wrote, they spoke one time when Brady called him. That conversation went no where. The Pats did not offer him a contract or try to negotiate a contract in the time between the last game of the season and March 18 when he would become a FA. When Brady saw that they were letting him hit Free Agency without giving him an offer he knew his time was done and on March 16 he made the decision to tell Kraft he was going to leave.

 

[Boomer B]

Ring 6, I did a little digging to back up what I wrote. If you don’t believe Curran who is very connected then so be it.


Do we want to do “blame” or do we want to do “reasons”?

We can do both but — out of respect for the end of the greatest run by any franchise in NFL history — I’d rather lay off the blame for why Tom Brady is no longer a Patriot.

Let’s stick to reasons.

One thing, though? Tom Brady didn’t “decide” to leave the Patriots. That’s for sure.

He decided to leave the same way a person “decides” to get out of the car when it pulls into the driveway, is put into park and the engine is turned off. Ride’s over. Time to get out.

The Patriots made very clear to Brady over the past few years that they weren’t in it with him for the long haul anymore.
They made it clear before the 2018 season when — instead of the extension he’d been trying to extract — he was given some incentives to hit in order to sweeten his salary.

At the time, a source texted me, “Remember, this is a club that would not pull the thorn out of the lion’s paw if presented with the situation.”
He didn’t hit any of those incentives.

Before the 2019 season, it took Brady seriously considering walking out of training camp before the Patriots gave him a raise and agreed to remove the franchise tag for 2020.

“Year-to-year! Year-to-year! Everybody wants to be year-to-year!”

That was the buff-and-shine put on the lack of a deal taking Brady through to the end of his career.

No, the Patriots wanted to be year-to-year. Brady — in asking to have the tag off the table — was only leveling the playing field by making it so that he had the same control over his future the Patriots had been exercising.

If the ride weren’t over, if Bill Belichick wasn’t ambivalent about re-upping with Brady for his 43-year-old season, there would have been an offer made over the past two months since the season ended.

There would have been more than just one phone conversation. There wouldn’t have been an intimation that the first move in negotiations needed to be made by Brady.​

The door for Brady was left wide open. He just walked through it.

Why did Tom Brady walk away from Patriots, Bill Belichick after 20 years?

Do we want to do “blame” or do we want to do “reasons”? We can do both but — out of respect for the end of the greatest run by any franchise in NFL history — I’d rather lay off the blame for why Tom Brady is no longer a Patriot. Let’s stick to reasons. One thing, though? Tom Brady didn’t “decide”…

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Brady chose to leave.

No contract was offered because Brady wouldn’t talk, he wanted to leave. As soon as free agency started he went to krafts house, and said I’m leaving. Kraft asked if there was anything they could do and Brady said no.

You lose credibility when you write stuff like that.

everybody knows that Bill did everything in his power the last few years to force Brady out of towns. Everybody knows that the main reason Tom Brady is not a Patriots is Bill Belichick.

 

[JMC00]

everybody knows that Bill did everything in his power the last few years to force Brady out of towns. Everybody knows that the main reason Tom Brady is not a Patriots is Bill Belichick.

You lose credibility when you write stuff like that.