Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[festy1986]

There was nothing Cam did vs Seattle that Brady was going to do better. Cam gave Edelman one of his all time best games. It was a 50/50 end of game situation and we already saw Brady lose a very similar game vs Seattle on the goal line several years ago. Cam wasn't on the field Chiefs. The 49'ers game and Rams game were blowouts and it was going to be hard for anyteam to comeback with the talent on the team. Miami is a team Brady always struggles with and he lost to a worse Miami team last year.

So we are down to the Texans, Broncos and Bills game. Those are the only games it's reasonable to assume there would be a very different outcome as they were close and winnable and Brady doesn't have a history of struggling against them.... actually that's not true, he struggles alot vs Denver. Close game, but we saw Brady lose slogfests last year with this offense. So it's more of a toss up than anything else. The Bills game is hard to say because Cam was the reason we were in that final drive.

Really the Texans is the only game I feel strongly Brady would have one. I'll spot you the Denver game to even though it wouldn't shock me to see him lose that.

This is a very bad team. I think you are highly overestimating how bad it is.

Oh I know it's a horrible team. It's pathetic. It's been pathetic before too and brady still kept them from losing record. Even dragged them to the playoffs.

However, brady most certainly would not of blown 4 straight opportunities to punch it in from inside the 5. I refuse to believe it.

The Patriots win that Buffalo game if cam doesn't friggen fumble the ball at the end. To say brady loses to me feels disingenuous to everything we know about brady and especially to the bills.

 

[SVN]

Exactly. I was simply saying that if the game happened the way it happened with brady instead that he wouldn't of fumbled the ball away. Literally would not of done that.

And he sure as hell wouldn't of failed to score from inside the 5 on 4 straight plays against seattle like cam did.

likely yes. But i didn't believe they couldn't score vs the titans last season in the playoffs from the 1 yard line 3 times either. We have talked about this before, but i dont think brady wouldve been happy playing here with this team and wouldnt be much of leader trying to build the team up since he doesnt have patience to work with lesser talent anymore . He would've said what he said " i am just an employee". It wouldn't have changed with Bill here. He needs people around him so he can win now and he is happy and thriving.

 

[festy1986]

likely yes. But i didn't believe they couldn't score vs the titans last season in the playoffs from the 1 yard line 3 times either. We have talked about this before, but i dont think brady wouldve been happy playing here with this team and wouldnt be much of leader trying to build the team up since he doesnt have patience to work with lesser talent anymore . He would've said what he said " i am just an employee". It wouldn't have changed with Bill here. He needs people around him so he can win now and he is happy and thriving.

Oh I agree with this take too. He was gone. Nothing was changing his mind.

I wasn't all that upset when he left because I knew it or strongly suspected it for well over a year.

Brady did what was best for him and it's bill job to figure out our path forward. I just think if push comes to shove, even had bad this team is brady and bill would of snuck into the playoffs.

Very low bar though and I'm fine that the bandaid was torn off.

 

[Kargetina]

Belichick missed the playoffs in 7 of the 8 years he coached with Brady.

He missed the playoffs 1 year out of the 18 years with Brady, including 17 straight years when he played.

Missed the playoffs in all 3 years without Brady in NE, with two losing seasons.

The last time the Pats missed the playoffs, was in 2008 when Brady didn’t play. The last time the Bucs made the playoffs was in 2007. Brady switches teams, the Pats miss the playoffs, the Bucs make it.

Belichick’s shtick would have never worked without the franchise player being a dutiful soldier. Belichick would have looked like a fool like Patricia did, when arrogance isn’t coupled with winning. At this point, the evidence is overwhelming that Brady’s quality, leadership and aura were far more important than Belichick.

When the Pats were down 28-3 to Atlanta, the players still believed. Why? Because “We have Tom Brady”. Even Atlanta’s player were still weary about the outcome ”...it’s Tom Brady though”.

It’s a players game and the Pats had the greatest of them all for 20 years.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

you mean 7 of the 8 years he coached without Brady?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The counterfactual debates are fun, but I don't think we get to the bottom of it. there's no "proof" and I don't think we'll have slam-dunk "proof" of what woulda happened with BB + Brady together a few more years, and I don't think we'll "prove" Bill can't do it w/o Tom, but that's possible (e.g., if he hangs it up after a few Bradyless meh seasons -- and I don't think that's gonna happen.)

Like others here, my eye's on the future for this team... unlike our draftnik crowd, I don't think my right guesses would cancel out my wrong guesses moreso than if an NFL war-room (even New England's) is tracked honestly, and I'm not a college fan. I do know that every year somebody statistically proves that THIS year's hot can't-miss QB prospect is different, etc. Right now we're rightfully all watching Jackson and Mahomes. Talk to me in 17 years, in terms of how "amazing" they turn out to be... the bar's set pretty high. The reasonable expectation for me (I'm the wrong side of 55, the right side of 60,) is that I'll never see anything like the last 20 years, with any NFL team... so it's sort of all gravy now.

But I would love to have something to get super-excited about. I was halfway there when we picked up the embers of Cam, but it became clear that the effects of the last few years' kryptonite were not wearing off.

But I will say this, Tom with this year's Tampa weapons has really only proven that he can do it with all the help he could ever wish for, especially against weak teams. If he goes deep in the playoffs, that's sort of continuing the Brady/Patriots level of success (entry level/disappointment = makes the championship game, "good year" = Super Bowl victory). One and done, on the other hand, wouldn't be establishing him as the solo "cause" of the dynasty. We need a few years' distance to make that call.

 

[thecore762]

This is an unfair comparison. While Brady is having a fine season look at his team, it’s stacked from top to bottom. Their team is filled with pro bowlers.
Bucs Achilles heel has been the saints. This year I expect the saints to make it all the way to the SB.

 

[sb1]

There was nothing Cam did vs Seattle that Brady was going to do better. Cam gave Edelman one of his all time best games. It was a 50/50 end of game situation and we already saw Brady lose a very similar game vs Seattle on the goal line several years ago. Cam wasn't on the field Chiefs. The 49'ers game and Rams game were blowouts and it was going to be hard for anyteam to comeback with the talent on the team. Miami is a team Brady always struggles with and he lost to a worse Miami team last year.

So we are down to the Texans, Broncos and Bills game. Those are the only games it's reasonable to assume there would be a very different outcome as they were close and winnable and Brady doesn't have a history of struggling against them.... actually that's not true, he struggles alot vs Denver. Close game, but we saw Brady lose slogfests last year with this offense. So it's more of a toss up than anything else. The Bills game is hard to say because Cam was the reason we were in that final drive.

Really the Texans is the only game I feel strongly Brady would have one. I'll spot you the Denver game to even though it wouldn't shock me to see him lose that.

This is a very bad team. I think you are highly overestimating how bad it is.

Pats lost to the Texans with Brady last year by almost an identical score as they did with cam this year. The defense was terrible in both.

 

[1960Pats]

I see that Brady has pulled away in the poll here after trailing early one. That's another comeback for TB12.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Watching Brady versus Detroit was sort of sickening. Not only is he the GOAT, but he had receivers that could actually get open. Shocking.

 

[amfootball]

Remember how great the Pats were in Dec with Brady for 2 decades?

If the Pats lose to the Bills tomorrow, they will be 0-3 in Dec.
Brady is 3-0 in Dec. with the Bucs

 

[lancerman]

Oh I know it's a horrible team. It's pathetic. It's been pathetic before too and brady still kept them from losing record. Even dragged them to the playoffs.

However, brady most certainly would not of blown 4 straight opportunities to punch it in from inside the 5. I refuse to believe it.

The Patriots win that Buffalo game if cam doesn't friggen fumble the ball at the end. To say brady loses to me feels disingenuous to everything we know about brady and especially to the bills.

Would Brady have been going rogue and running for 1st downs like Cam was to keep us in the Buffalo game? Brady would have almost exclusively relied on passing on a team that can’t pass.

This team is playing a lot more winning teams than last year. Brady realistically would have at best gotten us to 9-7 this year. 10-6 even wouldn’t get us in the playoffs. And that’s assuming a lot.

Brady struggles against Miami and is liable every year to lose a game to them, he has struggled against some mediocre Broncos teams, he lost to the Texans last year by a similar score (as SB1 pointed out), he lost to Seattle on the goal line when he had a much better team, he lost to the Chiefs last year, nothing was going to keep us in the Rams or 49’ers games. I can buy that Brady equals 1 or 2 more wins, but this is the worst Pats team since Bill took over and would have been the worst team Brady was part of. And quite frankly, this team is not built for a pocket passer to succeed in.

 

[sb1]

Would Brady have been going rogue and running for 1st downs like Cam was to keep us in the Buffalo game? Brady would have almost exclusively relied on passing on a team that can’t pass.

This team is playing a lot more winning teams than last year. Brady realistically would have at best gotten us to 9-7 this year. 10-6 even wouldn’t get us in the playoffs. And that’s assuming a lot.

Brady struggles against Miami and is liable every year to lose a game to them, he has struggled against some mediocre Broncos teams, he lost to the Texans last year by a similar score (as SB1 pointed out), he lost to Seattle on the goal line when he had a much better team, he lost to the Chiefs last year, nothing was going to keep us in the Rams or 49’ers games. I can buy that Brady equals 1 or 2 more wins, but this is the worst Pats team since Bill took over and would have been the worst team Brady was part of. And quite frankly, this team is not built for a pocket passer to succeed in.

Plus serious problems on defense this year that tbh Brady’s Pats didn’t have to deal with last year. They’re worse in just about every single way.

 

[sb1]

This is an unfair comparison. While Brady is having a fine season look at his team, it’s stacked from top to bottom. Their team is filled with pro bowlers.
Bucs Achilles heel has been the saints. This year I expect the saints to make it all the way to the SB.

Bill the GM is not helping Bill the coach’s legacy here. I think it’s great for the Pats that Brady is successful there because you know Bill is watching and will respond to it. Hopefully with a major talent injection instead of bringing in projects and rejects here to coach up. Talent matters.

 

[italian pat patriot]

Belichick missed the playoffs in 7 of the 8 years he coached with Brady.

?

 

[Kontradiction]

?

He meant to say “without.”

 

[TinhWoodhead]

Pats lost to the Texans with Brady last year by almost an identical score as they did with cam this year. The defense was terrible in both.

txans were better last yr

 

[XLIX]

Well Simms was hurt in the Buffalo game, and hostetler played more than Simms in that loss.
they beat the 9ers with 5 fgs.

5 field goals is better than 1 field goal, and 1 field goal was all the Giants managed to score against the same team when Simms was QB.

If you really think hostetler was the reason they won that SB we ought to just not discuss it.

If you don’t want to discuss it, feel free to take another L and go away gracefully. But you’re just not capable of doing that. Even when you promise you “are done” you just can’t help yourself but to respond. It’s a sickness you have.

 

[Doctor DDS]

They were way the f*ck better with Hostetler than Simms. They had lost 3 of their last 4 under Simms. Hostetler came in and won 5 in a row - 3 of which were playoff games. They lost in the regular season to SF and Buffalo under Simms, then beat both those teams in the playoffs with Hostetler. Hostetler threw for twice as many yards per game as Simms and, oh by the way, ran for 97 yards per game (Simms ran for less than 5 yards per game).

Zero chance they win SB25 without that injury.

Not sure where you are getting these stats from. Hostetler passed for an average of 165 yards and ran for 35 yards in the 5 games he started after taking over for Simms. Team averaged about 20 points a game when he started. The Giants smoked the Bears in the divisional round 31-3 when JH threw for 112 yards then squeaked by the 49ers 15-13 when he threw for 176 yards. He certainly played fine and did not make mistakes after taking over for Simms butt he did not carry the Giants.

 

[ralmat55]

How can the results of one season spent apart indicate which of two individuals contributed the most to their incredibly successful 20 year collaboration? Would anyone argue that George Harrison carried Lennon and McCartney through the Beatle years because “All things must pass “was a more successful album than John and Paul’s initial solo albums?