Stidham or Newton vs Chargers

[Triumph]

If the Bengals offer $20M to Cam I do not think it matters how he does these last few games, he is gone. Cam is a great guy, I am guessing a good mentor for Burrow, so it makes some sense. Especially if the Bengals are looking for more high draft picks.

Yes, but the Pats would presumably sign Cam first because NE holds his rights until his 2020 contract expires.

The Bengals or any other team cannot speak to cam until he is a FA again.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

What system, the single wing?

Maybe a Ravens tier offense? He couldn't be any worse than RGIII. I heard RGIII is pretty bad now but I didn't watch the game. Lamar also isn't the best passer. Who knows though, maybe Cam is damaged goods. I still give him props for coming in though. At least we're playing somewhat meaningful games in December. A few people before this season on this board saw us going what, 4-12?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yes, but the Pats would presumably sign Cam first because NE holds his rights until his 2020 contract expires.

The Bengals or any other team cannot speak to cam until he is a FA again.

I think agents and GMs talk a lot. But not about contracts, wink, wink.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Maybe a Ravens tier offense? He couldn't be any worse than RGIII. I heard RGIII is pretty bad now but I didn't watch the game. Lamar also isn't the best passer. Who knows though, maybe Cam is damaged goods. I still give him props for coming in though. At least we're playing somewhat meaningful games in December. A few people before this season on this board saw us going what, 4-12?

I did not think his shoulder would hold up. So far it has, we will see after the next few games as he had a game off for CV-19.

 

[Ring 6]

Maybe a Ravens tier offense? He couldn't be any worse than RGIII. I heard RGIII is pretty bad now but I didn't watch the game. Lamar also isn't the best passer. Who knows though, maybe Cam is damaged goods. I still give him props for coming in though. At least we're playing somewhat meaningful games in December. A few people before this season on this board saw us going what, 4-12?

Well those people were clearly wrong because with the worst QB in the nfl we are 5-6.
Not sure how he gets “props” for existing.

 

[lancerman]

Fair enough. But here I sit, "putting the blame on Cam."

Let's review: 12 games, 4 td passes, 9 (that's NINE) interceptions, multiple late-game screwups, the footwork of a drunken toddler.

He's awful. The love here baffles me, frankly.

Because it’s a lot more complicated than people are trying to frame it on both sides.

Yes it’s true Cam hasn’t been playing remotely well lately.

However Cam adds a wrinkle to the run game, which is our only strength that Stidham and Hoyer won’t. So taking Cam out hurts one of the bigger strengths on the team.

Yes Cam has 4 passing TD’s. He also has 9 rushing TD’s and will likely finish with 400 or 500 yards rushing.

Yes Cam has has 9 INT. Stidham has 4 in the last two years and he’s only really seen about a games worth of playing time over that span which is extremely concerning and really hurts the credibility of the whole “he can’t be worse than Cam argument”.

Yes he was really bad against Arizona. He also made crucial plays on the final drive that the other QB’s on the team wouldn’t that prevented us from going to overtime.

Early in the season a lot of the most optimistic posters on here liked to site the Seattle and KC games as close games where we had a chance and if we came out on the other side of those we’d be in the playoff race. For Seattle our defense and run game stuck up the joint and Cam and Edelman were carrying the team to a nail biter. Against KC almost everyone on here was screaming that if we started Cam we probably pull that game out. So some of the optimistic takes on this team this year required Cam.

And yes again, we have one of the worst WR corps in the league right now and it’s been made worse by Edelman not being around and having injury issues. We likely lost a 20 year starter in large part because he didn’t want to finish his career in this situation. You can’t separate that from the puzzle. Pick a QB right now on any other team.... they likely would severely downgrade in weapons coming here and have a much worse season statistically. I know a lot of people like to sugarcoat it and focus more on Cam’s mechanics and the times he misses open guys, but the pass catching talent is a severe issue that you simply can’t handwave and ignore as significant part of the problem. I’m not over stating it when I say someone like Patrick Mahomes would very likely see his stats halved on this team. Our best pass catcher right now would be a number 3 or 4 on most teams. And the coaches know that. Last year Brady caught **** for not making it work with this crew and they were arguably better last year in large chunks.

So it’s more complicated than its being made out to be. Cam’s had bad games recently so that’s more of the focus. But stepping back and looking at the whole picture is a lot more illuminating. It’s simple and convenient to believe Cam is the biggest problem. It is simple and convenient to want to believe that Stidham can’t be worse and he might be an answe (because he’s here). However that’s not exactly the case.

This is a severely flawed team, Cam has good qualities he brings and negative qualities, his struggles are a mix of his problems and problems with team makeup, he’s had bright spots and sour spots, and the reality is the coaching staff doesn’t believe that the guy on the bench is a better answer, and quite frankly the guy on the bench had opportunities and didn’t make the most of them to show he was a better answer. And there are no guarantees we find a ready made QB in the draft now or find an answer we are willing to pay for in free agency. So people might have to start accepting that there is a real chance Cam gets a second chance next year or gets to be the stopgap while we prepare someone else.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I honestly doesn’t understand the love for Cam as a player. When Hoyer had his performance against KC everyone here wanted him cut the following day. The fact is he never dressed again. Cam had this year way worse performance than Hoyer but people here still making excuses for him. Cam sucks that’s just the truth. The fact that Bill doesn’t want to try to play his backup whatever the reason shows how Bill mismanaged the QB position

 

[Thelonious]

Because it’s a lot more complicated than people are trying to frame it on both sides.

Yes it’s true Cam hasn’t been playing remotely well lately.

However Cam adds a wrinkle to the run game, which is our only strength that Stidham and Hoyer won’t. So taking Cam out hurts one of the bigger strengths on the team.

Yes Cam has 4 passing TD’s. He also has 9 rushing TD’s and will likely finish with 400 or 500 yards rushing.

Yes Cam has has 9 INT. Stidham has 4 in the last two years and he’s only really seen about a games worth of playing time over that span which is extremely concerning and really hurts the credibility of the whole “he can’t be worse than Cam argument”.

Yes he was really bad against Arizona. He also made crucial plays on the final drive that the other QB’s on the team wouldn’t that prevented us from going to overtime.

Early in the season a lot of the most optimistic posters on here liked to site the Seattle and KC games as close games where we had a chance and if we came out on the other side of those we’d be in the playoff race. For Seattle our defense and run game stuck up the joint and Cam and Edelman were carrying the team to a nail biter. Against KC almost everyone on here was screaming that if we started Cam we probably pull that game out. So some of the optimistic takes on this team this year required Cam.

And yes again, we have one of the worst WR corps in the league right now and it’s been made worse by Edelman not being around and having injury issues. We likely lost a 20 year starter in large part because he didn’t want to finish his career in this situation. You can’t separate that from the puzzle. Pick a QB right now on any other team.... they likely would severely downgrade in weapons coming here and have a much worse season statistically. I know a lot of people like to sugarcoat it and focus more on Cam’s mechanics and the times he misses open guys, but the pass catching talent is a severe issue that you simply can’t handwave and ignore as significant part of the problem. I’m not over stating it when I say someone like Patrick Mahomes would very likely see his stats halved on this team. Our best pass catcher right now would be a number 3 or 4 on most teams. And the coaches know that. Last year Brady caught **** for not making it work with this crew and they were arguably better last year in large chunks.

So it’s more complicated than its being made out to be. Cam’s had bad games recently so that’s more of the focus. But stepping back and looking at the whole picture is a lot more illuminating. It’s simple and convenient to believe Cam is the biggest problem. It is simple and convenient to want to believe that Stidham can’t be worse and he might be an answe (because he’s here). However that’s not exactly the case.

This is a severely flawed team, Cam has good qualities he brings and negative qualities, his struggles are a mix of his problems and problems with team makeup, he’s had bright spots and sour spots, and the reality is the coaching staff doesn’t believe that the guy on the bench is a better answer, and quite frankly the guy on the bench had opportunities and didn’t make the most of them to show he was a better answer. And there are no guarantees we find a ready made QB in the draft now or find an answer we are willing to pay for in free agency. So people might have to start accepting that there is a real chance Cam gets a second chance next year or gets to be the stopgap while we prepare someone else.

This is a well-argued and thorough post, obviously. I guess in the end I might go so far as to say that while Cam is certainly better then nothing, he's not good enough to be good enough - not even close - so why bother? He has no upside at all.: it's all downhill at this point. He's shot physically, I believe, he lacks the discipline to improve his game, and he's shell-shocked in the pocket. He's crosseyed with anxiety back there, doesn't see a d----d thing and can't get it together to mind his technique. In the end, why bother with him? There is nothing to be gained with him. He might as well not be there. He is certainly not the sort of player you want mentoring a young qb. For as long as he's eating snaps, you get no real look at anybody else. As sound as your points are, I still see no case for continuing to waste time on a has-been.

 

[Jim Beankie]

I honestly doesn’t understand the love for Cam as a player. When Hoyer had his performance against KC everyone here wanted him cut the following day. The fact is he never dressed again. Cam had this year way worse performance than Hoyer but people here still making excuses for him. Cam sucks that’s just the truth. The fact that Bill doesn’t want to try to play his backup whatever the reason shows how Bill mismanaged the QB position

Waiting... watching the clock it's 4:25 o'clock... They lie and say they're in love with him... can't find the butter, man.

 

[TheRazorsEdge]

ludicrous! I was all aboard the Cam-Train after SEA. I'm not scared of him doing well - I've just been waiting all season to see it again!!

Not directed at you personally. I just feel that folks had invested so much energy into stating their case that cam is washed and there's no way he's back next year.....that if he improves and is back next year, they will have to eat crow and/or be a very upset fan next year.

For the record, I still think Keeping Cam and drafting the next guy is the move.

 

[lancerman]

This is a well-argued and thorough post, obviously. I guess in the end I might go so far as to say that while Cam is certainly better then nothing, he's not good enough to be good enough - not even close - so why bother? He has no upside at all.: it's all downhill at this point. He's shot physically, I believe, he lacks the discipline to improve his game, and he's shell-shocked in the pocket. He's crosseyed with anxiety back there, doesn't see a d----d thing and can't get it together to mind his technique. In the end, why bother with him? There is nothing to be gained with him. He might as well not be there. He is certainly not the sort of player you want mentoring a young qb. For as long as he's eating snaps, you get no real look at anybody else. As sound as your points are, I still see no case for continuing to waste time on a has-been.

I think the problem is that the alternatives are two other QB’s who Bill has had more than a year to evaluate and he doesn’t really think it’s worth taking a look at them. Sometimes a guy is borderline and you want to see what he has live. I don’t believe they think Stidham is close to borderline and they are extremely unhappy with the few chances he got live. I personally think Stidham is only here because Hoyer is garbage and Cam has an injury history so with Covid being a huge uncertainty, it’s not worth taking a risk with only two QB’s.

As far as Cam goes, I agree unless next year he shows a huge return to form, he’s likely not the answer. That said if I give you test that’s multiple choice and there are 3 wrong answers, you still are going to look for which is the least wrong. Cam adds the most and has some intangibles that helps the team. He’s the least wrong answer and until we have a right answer to choose it makes no sense to deviate. And it’s very possible the right answer or even a better answer isn’t coming through the doors anytime soon.

 

[Doctor DDS]

As a 4th round pick it is highly likely that Stidham is not going to make it and be the long term answer but I am still holding out some hope. Kirk Cousins was also a 4th round pick and in his second year he was 0-3 with 4 TDs and 7 Picks and a QB rating of 58.4, His 3rd year was slightly better going 1-4 with 10 TDs and 9 picks. The following year at age 27 he turned into a good enough QB to ultimately get franchised then sign a top of market deal. Now Cousins is nothing spectacular but would still represent a major upgrade over what they have now.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the problem is that the alternatives are two other QB’s who Bill has had more than a year to evaluate and he doesn’t really think it’s worth taking a look at them. Sometimes a guy is borderline and you want to see what he has live. I don’t believe they think Stidham is close to borderline and they are extremely unhappy with the few chances he got live. I personally think Stidham is only here because Hoyer is garbage and Cam has an injury history so with Covid being a huge uncertainty, it’s not worth taking a risk with only two QB’s.

As far as Cam goes, I agree unless next year he shows a huge return to form, he’s likely not the answer. That said if I give you test that’s multiple choice and there are 3 wrong answers, you still are going to look for which is the least wrong. Cam adds the most and has some intangibles that helps the team. He’s the least wrong answer and until we have a right answer to choose it makes no sense to deviate. And it’s very possible the right answer or even a better answer isn’t coming through the doors anytime soon.

It’s like saying I ha rather worst starting RG in the nfl, and my only backup is a young player who may or may not be better, so I’m not going to upgrade the position next year. Probably the worst approach possible.

 

[lancerman]

It’s like saying I ha rather worst starting RG in the nfl, and my only backup is a young player who may or may not be better, so I’m not going to upgrade the position next year. Probably the worst approach possible.

I'm not saying don't upgrade the position next year. I'm saying even if you do draft for the position you will likely need someone to be a vet and take the reigns while the new guy gets ready. If that's the case, Cam makes more sense than Stidham. It's dumb to have the young guy who you didn't believe in and our passing over try to be the guy filling in and keeping the ship steady. It's a bad situation. Meanwhile Cam is a vet who likely will be cheap and a better stop gap and later back up for the year.

If you actually read my posts you would know I've been screaming about the need to draft a QB this off season.

Barring finding either a prospect who is ready to go out the gate or a guy in FA who we want to invest in, it makes more sense to keep Cam regardless of the draft

 

[Thelonious]

I think the problem is that the alternatives are two other QB’s who Bill has had more than a year to evaluate and he doesn’t really think it’s worth taking a look at them. Sometimes a guy is borderline and you want to see what he has live. I don’t believe they think Stidham is close to borderline and they are extremely unhappy with the few chances he got live. I personally think Stidham is only here because Hoyer is garbage and Cam has an injury history so with Covid being a huge uncertainty, it’s not worth taking a risk with only two QB’s.

As far as Cam goes, I agree unless next year he shows a huge return to form, he’s likely not the answer. That said if I give you test that’s multiple choice and there are 3 wrong answers, you still are going to look for which is the least wrong. Cam adds the most and has some intangibles that helps the team. He’s the least wrong answer and until we have a right answer to choose it makes no sense to deviate. And it’s very possible the right answer or even a better answer isn’t coming through the doors anytime soon.

I hear what you're saying, but I can't possibly agree. Cam is on track for 6 touchdowns, 14 ints for the year. He's historically bad. He's "leading" the 29th-best passing offense in the league. How much more evidence do youall need, fer crissakes? Sorry, but his apologists, led I suppose by that loudmouth dimwit Wiggy (Can he ever shut up and let somebody else talk?), are out to lunch and 'round the bend. It's baffling, honestly. There is no football reason for such an attitude. None whatsoever. Maybe it's some kind of Woke bs that escapes me. Maybe I just don't care enough about his alleged "charm." Maybe I'm just not into androgynous pimp duds and kicky hats. Its a genuine baffler.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not saying don't upgrade the position next year. I'm saying even if you do draft for the position you will likely need someone to be a vet and take the reigns while the new guy gets ready. If that's the case, Cam makes more sense than Stidham. It's dumb to have the young guy who you didn't believe in and our passing over try to be the guy filling in and keeping the ship steady. It's a bad situation. Meanwhile Cam is a vet who likely will be cheap and a better stop gap and later back up for the year.

If you actually read my posts you would know I've been screaming about the need to draft a QB this off season.

Barring finding either a prospect who is ready to go out the gate or a guy in FA who we want to invest in, it makes more sense to keep Cam regardless of the draft

You would have to sign newton as a free agent. Why would you sign a free agent who just proved to you he sucks and you aren’t going to win with him?
I know you are defending your cam is great campaign from before, but he sucks and really adds nothing. You aren’t developing an NFL passing game with him at QB. He holds back the entire offense from developing. Virtually anything would be better.

 

[Ring 6]

I hear what you're saying, but I can't possibly agree. Cam is on track for 6 touchdowns, 14 ints for the year. He's historically bad. He's "leading" the 29th-best passing offense in the league. How much more evidence do youall need, fer crissakes? Sorry, but his apologists, led I suppose by that loudmouth dimwit Wiggy (Can he ever shut up and let somebody else talk?), are out to lunch and 'round the bend. It's baffling, honestly. There is no football reason for such an attitude. None whatsoever. Maybe it's some kind of Woke bs that escapes me. Maybe I just don't care enough about his alleged "charm." Maybe I'm just not into androgynous pimp duds and kicky hats. Its a genuine baffler.

It’s also the 27th ranked scoring offense.

 

[Conflicted Panthers fan]

Lol if you think putting Jarred Stidham out there with the bad news bears rejects the Pats calls wide receivers will result in anything better than what Cam has done. It can always be worse.

 

[Foxypats]

Right now there are 12 teams worse than the Pats in terms of wins and a couple with the same record. That put us right in the middle for the draft . I am not sure we would go with a QB in the first round. If we were between 5-10 overall pick we might have. That is why I have been so torn the last couple of weeks. I want to win, however if we are not making the playoffs, I would have preferred a pick from 1-10. Next year we will have to get a vet and maybe find a diamond in the rough in a later round . If this is the best we are going to get from Cam, he will be somewhere else next year. I highly doubt BB rolls with Stidham. If he was any good we would have had him this year as the starter, we wouldn't have picked up Cam !

 

[lancerman]

You would have to sign newton as a free agent. Why would you sign a free agent who just proved to you he sucks and you aren’t going to win with him?
I know you are defending your cam is great campaign from before, but he sucks and really adds nothing. You aren’t developing an NFL passing game with him at QB. He holds back the entire offense from developing. Virtually anything would be better.

1. Because Stidham is not ever going to be the guy and we will need a back up or stopgap if we draft someone unless you want to throw them right to the wolves. You can have a vet who has some talent or a youth who has no talent.

2. Back to blocked because you have to go back to your schtick